What Do The Swedish Kids Think?

[Joanavon 553]

Does it matter really? I mean who cares if Swedish children are brats? besides the crux of this pseudo issue is a decline of discipline (regardless of whether it's enforced with physical punishment or non physical punishment). and the erosion of the actionable and enforceable power X parent now has over Y children versus X Parents had over him and so on. Everyone can agree that children with any measure of real Power is a bad thing. If it wasn't then children wouldn't need parents in the first place once pupped.

[Wulfgar 1,127]

I assumed it was a friendly joke since Norway generally has better living standards than Sweden and Swedes have to migrate to Norway constantly in order to get a job.

 

Only because they stole our oil...

And Farmerbob, discipline is good, violence is never good, I am sorry that you had bad parents that taught you the wrong values.

[Suntzu 644]

Pupped!

[Farmerbob 369]

Only because they stole our oil...

And Farmerbob, discipline is good, violence is never good, I am sorry that you had bad parents that taught you the wrong values.

I happen to believe my parents were quite good actually.  I deserved every single whipping I got, after I was too old for the wooden spoon or bare hand, and every one taught me a lesson.  You may choose to disagree with carefully using painful discipline without lasting harm as a teaching tool, but I'd appreciate it if you don't bad talk my parents.

[Druidnature 1,118]

Im Norwegian, we don't have these problems.

 

 

The worst person I have ever known in my life. and I'd consider him a "Brat" was Norwegian......Not saying there bad, lol - just find it funny

[Sharkin 1,319]

and Swedes have to migrate to Norway constantly in order to get a job.

 

Edited October 28, 2013 by Sharkin

[Guest Docterchese]

By my books, you can never criticise a child, at least under the age of around 11-12. Parents have the absolute most control over children and their upbringing, and I will not believe any kind of right-wing laissez-faire view that laws like a ban on smacking somehow reduce parental effectiveness and let kids run the world. Alternative methods are always available.

 

I work with children quite regularly through a part time job. Smacking a child would be absolutely unthinkable to me - ultimately, I can't, I'm not their parents - yet I'm still perfectly able to not only let children have fun, but also deploy some forms of discipline and guidance when necessary. Sure, some kids are harder than others and I'd question the methods used in their upbringing - but especially with younger children, every problem will have a solution.

 

I really like this from the article and totally agree with it:

 

"If you want a child to cooperate the best way is to have a close relationship so the child will want to cooperate with you," said psychologist Kajsa Loenn-Rhodin, one of the architects of the course, rejecting the idea that children have taken over.

"I think it's a bigger problem when children are treated badly... when there's harsh parenting," she said.

[Suntzu 644]

Cooperate? My parents told me if I want a say to pay rent and bills. lol

[Windeee 36]

[Silures 91]

Practical psychology would point out that there's 2 types of children, or even people. One kind does things to get away with them and the other kind does things for the rewards. You can guess which is the most desirable and it's relatively easy to put your kid in the right bracket. There was undoubtedly more  but I wasn't a parent when I read it so forgot.

 

Aeris, love that vid.

[Shrimpiie 3,665]

lol every time one of these topic comes op, a few of these violent wife beaters are lured out of the closet.

Things are blown so far out of proportion these days it is saddening...

[Farmerbob 369]

Things are blown so far out of proportion these days it is saddening...

Aye, I quoted it, then gave it the attention it deserved in the reply.

[Aleaiactaest 10]

Spoiled children are everywhere where there is poor education of parents. Best Golden ways mean for the correct education parent is:

 

 

Build your own self-esteem - a mother who values ​​herself , can raise self-confident child .

Take out the three basic emotions - love that child feel that he is loved , for it without having to do anything . Emotions acceptance, it knows that it is accepted for what it is . A emotion importance to be aware of their own high value.

Do not use the words " must" and " ought " - replace the words " what if " or " if you will ." Give him some freedom , but it should always be restrained.

Dont do your copy - each is unique , therefore your child. Develop the talent where it is , not where you wish it to be .

Let him go into the adult world - do not disable him . We ourselves created it and once to enter it will have , so let him gradually prepared. Why ever not take older child to a restaurant for dinner or not to show him where you work ?

Let him think and work - give him a margin of thought and work, and with all faults , which belongs to it. Be patient and nepeskujte it when something goes wrong . Mistakes are still learning ! Education for

Edited October 29, 2013 by Aleaiactaest

[Rathgar 959]

I successfully raised a daughter, who has a great social life, great grades at school, who has the power to make informed desicions... yes, she will every now and then ###### up, because she is a teen, and teens do that.  But not only I never had to hit her, I never even needed to scold her.

 

My aproach, since she can understand words, was to explain her why we do the things we do, and why people do the things they do, and amazingly, once kids have a basic idea of what is good and what is bad, and how things work, it doesnt takes them much effort to make the right choices... provided you lead with the example.

 

 

On the other hand, if she would have been a savage I WOULD have taken a diferent... more physical aproach.

[Farmerbob 369]

Spoiled children are everywhere where there is poor education of parents. Best Golden ways mean for the correct education parent is:

 

 

Build your own self-esteem - a mother who values ​​herself , can raise self-confident child .

Take out the three basic emotions - love that child feel that he is loved , for it without having to do anything . Emotions acceptance, it knows that it is accepted for what it is . A emotion importance to be aware of their own high value.

Do not use the words " must" and " ought " - replace the words " what if " or " if you will ." Give him some freedom , but it should always be restrained.

Dont do your copy - each is unique , therefore your child. Develop the talent where it is , not where you wish it to be .

Let him go into the adult world - do not disable him . We ourselves created it and once to enter it will have , so let him gradually prepared. Why ever not take older child to a restaurant for dinner or not to show him where you work ?

Let him think and work - give him a margin of thought and work, and with all faults , which belongs to it. Be patient and nepeskujte it when something goes wrong . Mistakes are still learning ! Education for

 

And when he does something that is unacceptable, smack him on the ass, and let him know it was unacceptable.

 

Education has zero to do with raising spoiled children.  People raised well behaved and poorly behaved children LONG before we had anything resembling a decent education system, even going back to the days of the oldest still-living people today.  Some of the most incredibly spoiled and uncontrolled people I have ever known were raised in a no-hit family.  Some of the angriest and most violent people I have ever known were raised in families with abuse that went beyond any sane discipline.

 

Discipline enforcement has everything to do with raising children.  If you can manage to discipline your child without using physical punishment, great.  All the more power to you.  I happen to know at least one person raised in a no-hit family that grew up to be a great person.  But her brother is a different story.  If your child happens to be a child like I was, who would pretty much ignore anything not attached to pain, then all your talking and threatening and grounding and sitting me in a corner would have zero effect.

 

Pain is a damn good teacher.  We're hard wired to learn from it.  It has to be used carefully, and in moderation, but it's stupid and ignorant, IMHO, to not include it in the toolbox of available tools when child rearing.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Farmerbob

[Suntzu 644]

Stay out of sweden bob. lol

[Alec 728]

Uhrm...

 

I need something to munch on while reading this thread

 

*searchs around the kitchen*

 

Oh, here it is.

 

 

 

PS: hiting a little kid is wrong and theres no excuse for it, we are not animals for the love of Fo!.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Alec

[Farmerbob 369]

 

PS: hiting a little kid is wrong and theres no excuse for it, we are not animals for the love of Fo!.

 

We are animals.  Homo sapiens sapiens, to be exact.  Which is why we learn well from pain, because we've got a few hundred million years of ancestors who all learned from pain.  If they hadn't, we wouldn't be here.

 

That doesn't mean you should torture your kids, it doesn't mean you should punch them or kick them, or abuse them.

[Alec 728]

We are animals.  Homo sapiens sapiens, to be exact.  Which is why we learn well from pain, because we've got a few hundred million years of ancestors who all learned from pain.  If they hadn't, we wouldn't be here.

 

That doesn't mean you should torture your kids, it doesn't mean you should punch them or kick them, or abuse them.

 

You are right.

 

 

Just beat in the kids some manners with the belt.

 

They will learn well from the pain, as our ancestors did for a few hundreds of years.

 

If that work for them, why not for us.

 

 

*keeps eating popkhornes*

[Raybarg 441]

About parenting...

 

The early age phase where parents have to adjust that their baby learned to move, has gained motoric control of their body and begin to form their "self"... That cute little baby is now a destroying monster who does not listen and does whatever it wants. That is the phase parents often rely on suppression; "Dont do that, Dont go there, Dont this and Dont that". Here you will find the point when relying on more and more cruesome tools happens, and that would be when future rules are formed in solid rock.

 

 

If just parents would remain consistent.

 

 

After some other phases comes a phase which is not because of the inner workings of growing up, its when kid is actually capable of "doing stuff" and understands spoken language very well. Then parents start to want the kid to carry a load of daily chores... be it to take out the trash or clean away their toys... Its the phase of "Do that, Do this, Do Do Do"...

 

When these two things are mixed perfectly black and white, the consistency is broken, the rules are all shattered. The result of that kid's mental behavior will become whatever pieces its brains put together, those pieces are the experiences which mattered the most. The best pleasures, the worst fears, highest pains. A single experience of physical abuse can become a definitive rule for the future of that cognitivity. A single experience of anything. Kid does that all by themselves, automatically. Its called survival. That is how humans adapted and spread all over the globe.

 

 

Just wanted to oversimplify that one thing. The tools of the trade (of the upbringing) are all available and its endless debate to say which tools were right or wrong, or just used on wrong way or in wrong situation. Consistent upbringing in this regard with physical abuse upbringing can lead to perfectly mental healthy individual, or it might not. But its not the single tool... very close qualitative analysis is required to get even a grasp of how to perceive how upbringing works. Thats why there is branch of science trying to establish around this area of social sciences.

 

 

 

And btw, neurobiologists agree there is two types of ppl, the "immediate reward" and "long term thinking" types... its a gray scale ofcourse, but its pure brain chemistry and its shown there is huge variety of that functionality within healthy adults who had taken part of the experimentations. With that in mind, also consider epigenetic inheritance (the question is, could upbringing define in which way this part of the brain functions).

Edited October 29, 2013 by Raybarg

[Miretta 1,415]

to bring in my 2cents I know for myself that it really depends on how its done, how much, for what and how much consistency there is in.

as example I accepted it totally when my grandma slapped me when I nearly burned my home down because I just like to watch fire burn LOL i didnt mean to burn it down tbh but i liked to play with tissue paper and a firelighter O.o

I think it was good that she did it in that case because it was important and maybe words couldnt have reached me at that time...

 

then there is time when parents beat their kids without telling them exactly why....that is when the kid starts developing a sense of " this must be unfair" and trust me....thats a very strong and revolting feeling so when they miss out too often, (and a kid doesnt count) they wont trust you every other intention to explain it anymore.....

 

then there is no beating at all...which can result in what you want but note, that it often takes alot of time and effort, cause maybe parents have some things themselves they never really grown into...stuff they never accepted themselves but now try to teach their childs....

 

 

there is so many stuff that can be done wrong....in wrong ways and beating seems to be the "easiest" and "fastest" way to do it, but its always a matter of the amount....the balance. you could raise someone completely without beating...and thats probably why we thrive to do that today, because we wouldnt like it too if someones beats us....when life hurts us, so we want to overcome the need to teach the kids the same way the life did to us....sure they cant be saved from any pain, but we dont need to add to what the life gives us already.

 

 

and looking again at the entrance post: there are brats everywhere, even "parents" who are brats, but i wouldnt say its because of the missing "beating", but because childrens these days are beeing hidden from consequences, sheltered from them. the whole community is doing that

[Farmerbob 369]

You are right.

 

 

Just beat in the kids some manners with the belt.

 

They will learn well from the pain, as our ancestors did for a few hundreds of years.

 

If that work for them, why not for us.

 

 

*keeps eating popkhornes*

 

And this statement is proof that you do not understand.  You aren't beating manners into the child, you are making sure that the child remembers the lesson that you give them, whether consciously or not.  And it's not manners you are teaching with a belt.  Manners/respect should be taught with less force, at an earlier age when less force is required to create enough pain to make a lesson "stick" 

 

My lesson about stealing was powerful enough that 35 years later it still holds strong.  Whenever I even consider the possibility of stealing something, I remember that.  Even in virtual worlds.  It made me extremely uncomfortable to go raiding with the Pirates in Epic, because we would be stealing virtual stuff in a virtual world and I'd still be having issues with it.

 

Another day I remember is the day I "graduated" from the hand to the belt.  I was seven or so, and was caught, for the second time, using a screwdriver and hammer to break pieces of pavement off the road, I had taken a fairly significant chunk of the road out before a neighbor called my parents and told them where I was and what I was doing.  My father came to get me, explained why what I was doing was wrong.  It didn't belong to me, it belonged to someone else, and I had no right to destroy it.  When we got home, he asked me if I understood why what I did was wrong, and had me tell him why, then he slapped me on the ass a couple times with his hand, and I, being a clever boy, realized that it didn't hurt, so I laughed at him and told him it didn't hurt.  So he pulled off his belt and made it hurt.  And again, I learned a lesson that has never left me.  Again something that is so strongly within me that I even have a hard time destroying other people's stuff in games.

 

Maybe my parents were just good at it, but I look at all the lying, stealing, cheating, and thievery in the world that I just can't bring myself to do, because of how well I was raised, and it just makes me shake my head.

[Wulfgar 1,127]

I don't lie, steal, cheat, deceive, and no one has ever laid a hand on me (maybe I was slapped once or twice but there is a big difference between a slap and using pain as a teaching tool).

I don't do these things because I know they are wrong, you don't do  them out of fear, same reason victims of spousal abuse don't go to the police, same reason children who are abused by relatives don't go to the police.

Not saying that people who believe in physical punishment do these kind of things, but how do you ensure people don't cross the line between punishing because they think they are doing the right thing, and punishing because

they are enjoying it?

We are not dogs (btw, you don't use physical violence to teach dogs how to behave either).

 

I don't think all the lying, stealing, cheating people in the world was raised by parents who treat their children like fragile pieces of glass.

[Farmerbob 369]

I don't lie, steal, cheat, deceive, and no one has ever laid a hand on me (maybe I was slapped once or twice but there is a big difference between a slap and using pain as a teaching tool).

I don't do these things because I know they are wrong, you don't do  them out of fear, same reason victims of spousal abuse don't go to the police, same reason children who are abused by relatives don't go to the police.

Not saying that people who believe in physical punishment do these kind of things, but how do you ensure people don't cross the line between punishing because they think they are doing the right thing, and punishing because

they are enjoying it?

We are not dogs (btw, you don't use physical violence to teach dogs how to behave either).

 

I don't think all the lying, stealing, cheating people in the world was raised by parents who treat their children like fragile pieces of glass.

 

Why were you slapped?  Do you remember it?  Was it for something important?

 

When you are young, you don't know they are wrong, so you have to learn it.

 

The purpose is not to create fear, it's to make it more than just another random memory of blah blah blah parentspeak.  I never feared my parents.  I feared doing what I was told not to do, if that makes any sense to you.

 

If you train a dog right, you don't have to use pain, correct.  Dogs are tightly knit pack animals and far more tightly bound to their natural behavior than we are, so they are typically FAR easier to teach than a human.  You DO have to establish dominance though, or the dog will try to.  You can establish dominance over a dog nonviolently, by providing what they need, and proving that you can "lead the pack"  Humans aren't so easy.  Primates don't cooperate anywhere near as instinctively as dogs do, and we live in a world that is a bit unnatural to our baser natures.

 

Yes, our baser natures are still there, and one of the strongest instincts of anything with a spine is pain aversion.  To fail to use that when educating children is foolish.  To abuse it is criminal.

 

I don't think all the bad in the world comes from people not using pain to better teach their kids to behave, it's not that black and white.  But all the screaming children in grocery stores, restaurants, and movie cinemas?  Those are almost 100% due to parents trying to use nonviolent child rearing methods on children who are old enough to understand language but not old enough to hold a lesson in their dear little heads unless it's accompanied by a slap on the ass.

 

It's very hard for me to NOT believe that there is some impact on the general adult population, when so many children get to be old enough to start forming habits, but they still don't understand basic manners, and have little discipline.

[Alec 728]

 You aren't beating manners into the child, you are making sure that the child remembers the lesson that you give them,

 

Nice wording for "through the fear and pain of the mighty belt", thats a really good PR work.

 

Yush.

 

*keeps eating popcorns*

Edited October 29, 2013 by Alec