[Epic] Thoughts About Death Penalty, Full Loot And How It Affects Playerbase

[Zbzikowany 28]

Here are some things me and many of ppl i encountered in wurm are thinking about how pvp should look:

 

no full loot , full loot is a no-go for any game that wants ppl to participate in pvp often 

i think this requires an explanation :

 

none of the mmo games that had full loot EVER were successful or popular , and i m not talking here about somthing like 300 ppl playing the game , because thats in my opinion a extremely niche game. 

 

Examples for this are darkfall , mortal online , thats the only two i think that tried full loot and are considered extreme niche  because of lack of players. 

 

There are many ways of getting over full loot without hurting the flow of items and coins in the game , example is items could lose 10% of ql upon death and 50 % dmg , it could be discussed as a partial loot , with a new skill "scavenging" where the last hitter gets a chance to get one item from enemys corpses based on his skill level . there are many possible solutions . 

 

The solution for that CAN be worked out , but thats to discuss later , first things firsts

 

Wurm needs some fundamental changes to pvp , and pvp balance , next proposal is :  

 

Why wurm is discouraging players to pvp ? well ,death penalty .

Death penalty in the form of reducing your fighting skill , and to be more precise reducing it the same amount at every level of FS is not good . Lets elaborate:

When at 70 FS you lose 0.25 skill , you can kill 2-3 bears and get it back - estimated time of getting back what you lost on pvp is about 10-30 minutes depending on luck / server you re on / location 

 

Well the problem is when you get 90 FS which is not easy to train  ( especially on elevation where you always have a risk of being ganked by enemy + not so big mob spawn ) and you lose 0.25 FS , 2-3 bears wont do the job now wont they ? well how about 200-300 bears , will THAT do the job ? NO . How about  1-2 days of grinding on rare spawns of greenish mobs and champions ?That might do the job 

 

What i m trying to say here , that death penalty on high levels of fighting skill is way , way too big for ppl to start actively but i mean really often , praticipate in pvp . Not only that but :

 

- some ppl wont like this idea and leave the game coz the game is not hardcore PVP anymore 

- tons of ppl will see the game more enjoyeable , playable , and fun 

 

In my opinion death penalty should be rebalanced at higher lvl of FS 

 

after careful observation i can say that average population on the servers latly oscilate in : 

40 ppl online (Elevation) , 

20 ppl online (Affliction) , 

100 ppl online ( Desertion - thank you Bashur , a shame you didnt start on Affliction ) , 

50 ppl online (Serenity) " 

 

 

 

Those numbers are not fit for an mmo. 

Would you like to change those numbers ? 

I would 

 

Have some other ideas for full loot and death penalty ?Please share them and discuss

 

[Derecho 50]

Runescape was pretty damn successful, wouldn't you say?

[Bart 954]

Runescape was pretty damn successful, wouldn't you say?

 

Beat me to it

Edited October 18, 2013 by Bart

[Zbzikowany 28]

yeah i know , but when we consider the details , runescape isnt a persistent-territory sandbox game , it doesnt have open pvp , just one map thats pvp enabled the wilderness iirc ,i dont consider runsecape a sandbox just because it has skills instead of player lvls , for me wurm is the only game thats a full sandbox , ultima online was close to this .Derecho is there territory conquest in runescape? runescape isnt comperable to wurm because of many facts 

[Derecho 50]

yeah i know , but when we consider the details , runescape isnt a persistent-territory sandbox game , it doesnt have open pvp , just one map thats pvp enabled the wilderness iirc ,i dont consider runsecape a sandbox just because it has skills instead of player lvls , for me wurm is the only game thats a full sandbox , ultima online was close to this .Derecho is there territory conquest in runescape? runescape isnt comperable to wurm because of many facts 

 

You don't want PVP? Don't play on a server with PVP enabled.

Easy enough.

[Maxthx 642]

 

Here are some things me and many of ppl i encountered in wurm are thinking about how pvp should look:

 

no full loot

 

 

I have lived and played in the PvP community in Wurm since I started here. And I have literally never heard a single complaint about the full loot aspect. I consider it one of the core features of Wurm PvP. It would be almost pointless to PvP without it.

[Suntzu 644]

I have lived and played in the PvP community in Wurm since I started here. And I have literally never heard a single complaint about the full loot aspect. I consider it one of the core features of Wurm PvP. It would be almost pointless to PvP without it.

[Zbzikowany 28]

well the quotes borked up , nvm

Edited October 18, 2013 by Zbzikowany

[BabylonHoruv 7]

Wurm isn't really FULL loot anyway.  It's just full loot of what you happen to be carrying at the moment.  Most people leave the majority of their possesions on their deed or in the bank.

[Zbzikowany 28]

 

 

I have lived and played in the PvP community in Wurm since I started here. And I have literally never heard a single complaint about the full loot aspect. I consider it one of the core features of Wurm PvP. It would be almost pointless to PvP without it.

 

OK. How big is the community you live in . is it 1000 players ? or maybe 10? Thats the whole point 

[Sir Arowhun 473]

I must admit it is silly that a 90fs person loses a few days worth of grinding for every death. Maybe the skill loss could gradually shrink after you get past 70fs.

 

However, full loot PvP is a part of the game and its fine how it is. In fact, I would be happy with changes that made it harder to use logged-off alt accounts or merchants to protect loot. Its dumb when you break into a deed only to find all the weapons stored on merchants for sale for rediculous prices so you can't get them.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Sir Arowhun

[Maxthx 642]

OK. How big is the community you live in . is it 1000 players ? or maybe 10? Thats the whole point 

 

Its clear to me that you have no interest in the current Wurm PvP community. The change you propose would anger almost everyone I know that currently does PvP and would isolate the entire current PvP playerbase. You are trying to set up a completely new and different PvP playerbase that you agree with.

 

I have an idea... why don't you set up a Spar Community on Freedom? That is literally everything you are looking for. Fighting with no death, no skill loss, no loot.

 

Have Fun.

[Brunwulf 470]

Full loot and penalty is the reason a lot of us play Wurm. -1

 

 

EDIT: You sound very inexperienced.

I won't even get into your outrageous idea that 3 bears gives you .25fs at 70.

Also, people with over 90fs pvp all the time. Gary has nearly 99FS and he pvps ALL THE TIME.

You gain so much FS in pvp that there is very little risk.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Brunwulf

[Eisenkreuz 23]

Ultima online

Eve online

 

Your premise is invalid.

[Zbzikowany 28]

Its clear to me that you have no interest in the current Wurm PvP community. The change you propose would anger almost everyone I know that currently does PvP and would isolate the entire current PvP playerbase. You are trying to set up a completely new and different PvP playerbase that you agree with.

 

I have an idea... why don't you set up a Spar Community on Freedom? That is literally everything you are looking for. Fighting with no death, no skill loss, no loot.

 

Have Fun.

the problem is i live on epic , played from the start and i want to play more yes from time to time i venture to freedom but mostly i play at affliction 

to the point 

 

 

 The change you propose would anger almost everyone I know that currently does PvP

 

how many ppl you know from pvp community? 10? 15? WOW THATS ALOT!!! like 30 % of ppl online on elevation !!if i upset those ppl and 10 times more come to replace you because they like the game more , i dont care about what you have to say in this matter then. I m thinking about the well being of the game , not yours and yours friends. If nothing will change the game will still be multiplayer , and NOT massively multiplayer i have seen private servers for minecraft that have bigger player base than the epic server i play on!

[Brunwulf 470]

the problem is i live on epic , played from the start and i want to play more yes from time to time i venture to freedom but mostly i play at affliction 

to the point 

 

how many ppl you know from pvp community? 10? 15? WOW THATS ALOT!!! like 30 % of ppl online on elevation !!if i upset those ppl and 10 times more come to replace you because they like the game more , i dont care about what you have to say in this matter then. I m thinking about the well being of the game , not yours and yours friends. If nothing will change the game will still be multiplayer , and NOT massively multiplayer i have seen private servers for minecraft that have bigger player base than the epic server i play on!

 

 

Removing full loot will not increase PvP nor will removing the penalty.

A lot of us here enjoy the "niche" community we have and could care less if YOU and 10 times more will replace us.

You should go live on Freedom permanently.

[Fawkes 1,567]

Wurm is effectively a 50% loot system, considering that everybody and their dog uses res stones. But even if that weren't the case, just because a change may or may not bring in more players, that's not necessarily a reason to make that change. If we got rid of the loot system and the penalty for dying, it might make people feel safer PvPing, but then the act of PvPing itself becomes less rewarding and less exciting. If I don't have anything to lose or gain from fighting, then there's no reason for me to go out there in the first place.

 

Also, how would this affect raids? If a group of people comes to your deed and bashes down your walls, all you have to do is grab everything of value on your deed and let them kill you. Spawn at the starter town and everything you own is safe, albeit with some damage and ql loss.

[Zbzikowany 28]

Removing full loot will not increase PvP nor will removing the penalty.

A lot of us here enjoy the "niche" community we have and could care less if YOU and 10 times more will replace us.

You should go live on Freedom permanently.

majority of the ppl that replied to me are the same like you , if you dont want more players in the game , THAN make a niche game for yourself , and play it with your "community" , and then TRY , TRY to pay the bills for the server, will see how successful you will be 

 

I posted here to get some constructive criticism and ideas how to work this out , all i get are trolls that dont want any change in the game , not to mention they enjoy playing with the same 20-40? ppl all the time , and foremost didnt get half of the stuff im writing about , y u on foruzm when u ###### readz mah ?

[Zbzikowany 28]

Wurm is effectively a 50% loot system, considering that everybody and their dog uses res stones. But even if that weren't the case, just because a change may or may not bring in more players, that's not necessarily a reason to make that change. If we got rid of the loot system and the penalty for dying, it might make people feel safer PvPing, but then the act of PvPing itself becomes less rewarding and less exciting. If I don't have anything to lose or gain from fighting, then there's no reason for me to go out there in the first place.

 

Also, how would this affect raids? If a group of people comes to your deed and bashes down your walls, all you have to do is grab everything of value on your deed and let them kill you. Spawn at the starter town and everything you own is safe, albeit with some damage and ql loss.

what i was saying in the post is lower the penalty for dying , and if you reatd the OP post you would know that i mentioned other ways of doing it than non-full loot ?

My solutions are not perfect i know , but to start from somewhere i gave some ideas how it might be handled . but from the flow of discussion i can see its going nowhere

 

and a simple solution to that would be you drop everything in inventory besides the equipped stuff on you that way you re very limited on what you can actually secure ie only 2 weapons + armor or 1weapon+armor+ shield

Edited October 18, 2013 by Zbzikowany

[Gone420 609]

One of the fun parts of winning a fight can be the loot you get from it, which can them be used to either upgrade yourself and/or gear new players

I've never heard anyone complain about the loot system, and 3/4? years ago a partial loot system was tried, everyone hated it, and it was changed back

Lowering the FS penalty a tad isn't that bad a idea tho imo

also changing the loot system isn't going to magically increase the player count, most of the people i've seen dis pvp, dont do so because of the death part of it, but the acual fighting, most people just don't find it enjoyable

[vill 248]

-1 for WoW like ideas. 

 

PvP Penalty and Full loot is that what makes PvP exciting in this game regardless how it graphically looks like.

 

If you don't want full loot system ->> Go Freedom::  Simple.

 

Dear Zbzikowany Full Loot is sense and motor of PvP on Epic.

That's why players care, build fortress, defend them and fight. That's why having supply of gear makes you strong and ready for next fight. Loot makes economy. This is sandbox not game for care bears. Effort matters.

I haven't seen single player on Epic which complain about it.

 

 

Darkfall and Mortal failed not because of full loot but because developers were unprofessional and had no idea how to keep all the players base. Darkfall and Mortal had no content except PvP that's why both games seems to be dead now.

 

Ah and about real numbers:

 

 

 

40 ppl online (Elevation) , 

20 ppl online (Affliction) , 

100 ppl online ( Desertion - thank you Bashur   , a shame you didnt start on Affliction ) , 

50 ppl online (Serenity) " 

 

 

 

Elevation players 46/400

Serenity players 75/400

Desertion players 135/400

Affliction players 24/400

 

 

And it is important to know why and when... for example on Elevation most players are US from PST Time zone.... so from now this number will not drop but increase, same with Desertion now.

Edited October 18, 2013 by vill

[Sir Arowhun 473]

....

 

Its not that we don't want new players or we are harassing you. We just don't agree with removing full loot PvP. We enjoy the system how it is currenty implemented. Wurm is a very hard game to get into, and I understand that this deters new players. However, the dificulty of Wurm is what makes it so fun for the people that are patient enough to stay.

[Alec 728]

The only thing in that I agree of the OP is the skill loss.

 

Skill loss don't encourage PvP, cuz you can't loot skill.

 

But the looting part is a two-way thing, from wich you can recover in less time than you have to grind a +80skill.

 

Skill loss penality is totally useless in Epic, you can't loot the skill from the player you killed, and that player will need more time to be PvP ready for the next time, making less PvP events to happen.

I think that the skill loss penality is there just as a cheap excuse to make us do even more and more sensless grind(aka making us play more).

[shankiest 1,238]

Why do so many people struggle with pvp gear? is it really that bad? You need a vynora priest and one smith and bam you will have pvp gear end of the day. Horses are easy as hell to breed the smith could do it. I don't see loot as a good excuse to stop pvp just people don't like dying if there is a chance

EDIT:removed anyway

Edited October 18, 2013 by shankiest

[islixana 27]

hmm i think full loot is less of an issue then res stones, personally I think they have a horrible effect on the game. With the removal of rez stones ( plz for the love of everything that is sacred ) you might actually start to see a real economy.  the only thing better then removal of rez stones would to to remove them and only make some loot drop the rest of it destroyed.