The Godawful Creation Process

[ReaverKane 363]

Actually I'm the original owner of majorminor, i sold it to elite 3 years ago, I guess what you are referring to is making the actual weapons (activate handle, activate blade, repeat), then I guess my suggestion wouldn't work.

Hehe! Nice WB, you char was AWESOME! Knowing Elite, i'm assuming you did most of the skilling up? Elite let me borrow it for a while last year, all my weapons and most my tools have your signature Xp.

 

Yeah, i was referring to that, and not just that, items like boats that need to be continued, even though you can bind the continue key you still need to activate the item, which is fine on small items, you can put them in a container, and activate them inside it through the toolbelt, but larger stuff like hull planks, its a pain in the neck (and writsts).

Even with the toolbelt and containers (which i use for making weapons (handles in a bag)) its still an awful lot of keypresses.

[Hussars 511]

We've thought about it, but the amount of management required would be too high compared with returns. We've discussed using a uservoice-like system more though for fair voting on new features.

 

Could be interesting.  Never been a fan of "off-site" services like uservoice.  Tends to spread folks thin and makes finding information a bit of a pain, or really easy to miss those votes, but does make the whole: "are they a unique account" worries easier to deal with.

 

Thanks for the feedback though, it's appreciated, even if I do give the team too much crap sometimes lol

[joedobo 1,187]

Repeat last action....Oh how cool that would be! Just to be clear, I don't need this and can bang out bricks or what ever for hours a day. But I know it would help with player retention. Use current active tool on mouse over object and send last action.

 

Use active tool on mouse over resource and make X-number of items....This scheme is so common in MMO's its not funny. Bet you want to replay to me saying, "Wurm shouldn't try to be like other games". Well, in some cases I agree but not here.

 

Voting....Generate a unique identifier fetched by ingame character. Go to a third party web page, paste in your identifier, cast your votes. This will let us limit voting to actual ingame accounts and tie a vote to a specific account. Here you could fetch lots of neet statistics about the account, the vote, and trends amongst players.

[sunsvortex 599]

I am actually conducting a small focus group of sorts. The questions in it have been dev approved and some of the questions are from the devs. Its actual use will however be subject to a very high level of scrutiny due to the small sample size. Focus groups can be helpful but they can also be very misleading if your not very careful with how one interprets the results. I will not be publishing the results of the focus group but will be passing those on to the devs for their interpretation and they can decide if any of the results warrant action based on the feedback given. It has been made clear to me that they are very resistant to making interpretations based on such a small sample size as they would like to have these done with hundreds of people. However, its been my experience that even small focus groups can sometimes be helpful so I will be continuing to run it until its conclusion sometime after the next big update.

[ReaverKane 363]

Repeat last action....Oh how cool that would be! Just to be clear, I don't need this and can bang out bricks or what ever for hours a day. But I know it would help with player retention. Use current active tool on mouse over object and send last action.

 

Use active tool on mouse over resource and make X-number of items....This scheme is so common in MMO's its not funny. Bet you want to replay to me saying, "Wurm shouldn't try to be like other games". Well, in some cases I agree but not here.

 

Voting....Generate a unique identifier fetched by ingame character. Go to a third party web page, paste in your identifier, cast your votes. This will let us limit voting to actual ingame accounts and tie a vote to a specific account. Here you could fetch lots of neet statistics about the account, the vote, and trends amongst players.

Voting with alts is tantamount the same as to voting with multiple forum accounts. Whats more, i'm guessing there's more people with in-game alts than people with multiple forum accounts.

 

Repeat last would be awesome.

Edited September 20, 2013 by ReaverKane

[Tryfaen 709]

The difference between a bot and a human is a bot doesn't get frustrated with extra hurdles/clumsy UI.

[sunsvortex 599]

 

 

Voting....Generate a unique identifier fetched by ingame character. Go to a third party web page, paste in your identifier, cast your votes. This will let us limit voting to actual ingame accounts and tie a vote to a specific account. Here you could fetch lots of neet statistics about the account, the vote, and trends amongst players.

Voting based on in game accounts is not a fair voting system. There is no such thing as a fair online voting system . A fair voting system would entail  each person having only a single vote. I do not support Chicago 30's style voting of Vote Early and Vote Often. That a user pays for multiple toons does not, nor should it ever, give a single player more say than another.

 

Be careful what you ask for when speaking about voting systems....you may just get it.

Edited September 20, 2013 by sunsvortex

[Budda 2,673]

Then i'll flip the table here. Maybe the devs should start admitting they can make mistakes.

 

Never!

[joedobo 1,187]

 

Be careful what you ask for when speaking about voting systems....you may just get it.

What I ask for is what I want. Its cool if you disagree.  I never agreed to your definition of fair. I think each account is a unique entity and should get a vote. This is especially true for paying premium accounts. I can see how concerning F2P accounts we'd need to be careful but a few measures can help to reduce problems.

 

1. Only accounts created before the a vote can vote.

2. Premium status for a voting only counts if you had premium before the pole was posted. 

3. Put up polls at random times.

2. Since we can attach account statistics to a vote it would let the dev see many different relationships. 

[sunsvortex 599]

What I ask for is what I want. Its cool if you disagree.  I never agreed to your definition of fair. I think each account is a unique entity and should get a vote. This is especially true for paying premium accounts. I can see how concerning F2P accounts we'd need to be careful but a few measures can help to reduce problems.

 

1. Only accounts created before the a vote can vote.

2. Premium status for a voting only counts if you had premium before the pole was posted. 

3. Put up polls at random times.

2. Since we can attach account statistics to a vote it would let the dev see many different relationships. 

No you did not agree to my definition of fair. But why would anyone support any other definition? This risks disenfranchising a very large portion of the player base. Not only would such a system be detrimental to the game it will give false and misleading information. The only way I can see this ever having any useable effect is if the subject matter being voted on is of such insignificance as to not be worth the time to really vote on. Such as "how long a beard should characters be able to grow". Any question having any real impact would be nothing more than a mess if subjected to such an easily abused system.

 

Polls and voting systems are nothing more than placation. They give the illusion of player interaction with the particular company presenting them, nothing more.

[Emane 158]

reaverkane "Only time i saw Rolf admit a mistake and roll it back was with deed lamps and the olive oil + oil barrel thing. Was the only time he actually corrected his error and improved the game with that correction."

 

But now it is borked again because olive harvests got nerfed...no way to fill one of those tubs now with one olive per tree per season . 

 

Also

 

Yeah, i was referring to that, and not just that, items like boats that need to be continued, even though you can bind the continue key you still need to activate the item, which is fine on small items, you can put them in a container, and activate them inside it through the toolbelt, but larger stuff like hull planks, its a pain in the neck (and writsts).

 

 

make a new group...add group to toolbelt...group doesnt care if it is planks trees or what is in it...forgoes the size limitations on using containers. 

Edited September 20, 2013 by Emane

[Guest Docterchese]

Doc I reckon your a fair man and all but you really dont understand your job well. You should be a GM. PIO's dont shoot THAT straight. I deleted the rest of my post due to being counterproductive.

If your open to feedback id ask the new Dev Red Baron for a brow bag on empathy and active listening.

cheers.

BB

Maybe you misinterpreted me slightly, I didn't mean financial returns but returns as in how useful it is. Ie it would take a lot of effort to regulate and work with a team of players but we wouldnt get much more if any more information compared with a voting system like user voice.

[rosedragon 2,282]

I'm not agree on agreeing with majority votes as a way to develop the game. If we learn from real life, majority not in any case means they know the best for them or the best that fit to fix whatever problem it is. On game dev example, there was a game testing that users complain a game's puzzles are too hard but when the devs decide to watch the people plays they found out it is not the difficulty, but the fast-pacing music distract the users from figuring out the puzzles. Voices or words are not accurately describe what someone feels, and this someone might also not accurately make a solution. Not to say the devs are perfect either, but I rather devs still make the ultimate decision.

[Hussars 511]

I am actually conducting a small focus group of sorts. The questions in it have been dev approved and some of the questions are from the devs. Its actual use will however be subject to a very high level of scrutiny due to the small sample size. Focus groups can be helpful but they can also be very misleading if your not very careful with how one interprets the results. I will not be publishing the results of the focus group but will be passing those on to the devs for their interpretation and they can decide if any of the results warrant action based on the feedback given. It has been made clear to me that they are very resistant to making interpretations based on such a small sample size as they would like to have these done with hundreds of people. However, its been my experience that even small focus groups can sometimes be helpful so I will be continuing to run it until its conclusion sometime after the next big update.

Fair enough, I think you and I seem to agree on the impact of using groups like this.  As for making decisions based on small sample sizes, well.. what's the old statistics joke about X% being made up?       With enough variables to filter for, any amount of statistical data can be made to say what someone wants if you're creative in your application of those filters.  So I agree with the dev team's stance as well!  

[sunsvortex 599]

Maybe you misinterpreted me slightly, I didn't mean financial returns but returns as in how useful it is. Ie it would take a lot of effort to regulate and work with a team of players but we wouldnt get much more if any more information compared with a voting system like user voice.

So one question then -If you use a voting system like User Voice how will you stop multiple votes from a single person or are you going to allow this and statistically remove them or will you just flat out allow it to happen?

[sunsvortex 599]

Fair enough, I think you and I seem to agree on the impact of using groups like this.  As for making decisions based on small sample sizes, well.. what's the old statistics joke about X% being made up?       With enough variables to filter for, any amount of statistical data can be made to say what someone wants if you're creative in your application of those filters.  So I agree with the dev team's stance as well!  

Yep, its a fair stance and one I would also have taken if it had been presented to me. But I have been involved with a lot of focus groups over the years and for the past 8 years have been developing UI's for web apps for a variety of differing industries and have come to value their feedback.

[Jakenheimer 63]

Since when is this a democracy?  We vote with money.  Give us features we want and we fork over the dough.  Don't improve the game and we go somewhere else.  Simple as that.

[metis 51]

ok so I haven't really read the whole of this topic, now about a year ago I remember threads like this...I am glad to see it hasn't become a hate/flame thread against someone who has a legit question, if not asked it a less aggressive manner.....whatever. I agree and am glad to hear they are looking at a re-vamp on the UI and hopefully the actual creation process in the game as 98% of the game is nothing but this.

[Guest Docterchese]

So one question then -If you use a voting system like User Voice how will you stop multiple votes from a single person or are you going to allow this and statistically remove them or will you just flat out allow it to happen?

 

That's the problem :S the best solution would be an in-game voting system that works with one vote per premium account per e-mail address, making it very difficult and expensive to try and rig voting. Additionally, there are many players who aren't active on the forums/Wurm community, and an in-game system would get them involved too.

[ReaverKane 363]

reaverkane "Only time i saw Rolf admit a mistake and roll it back was with deed lamps and the olive oil + oil barrel thing. Was the only time he actually corrected his error and improved the game with that correction."

 

But now it is borked again because olive harvests got nerfed...no way to fill one of those tubs now with one olive per tree per season . 

 

Also

 

Yeah, i was referring to that, and not just that, items like boats that need to be continued, even though you can bind the continue key you still need to activate the item, which is fine on small items, you can put them in a container, and activate them inside it through the toolbelt, but larger stuff like hull planks, its a pain in the neck (and writsts).

 

 

make a new group...add group to toolbelt...group doesnt care if it is planks trees or what is in it...forgoes the size limitations on using containers. 

Ah, groups, haven't worked on stuff like that after they added those.

Now you only need olive oil for off-deed lamps though. But i didn't know it had been nerfed the harvests. That sucks, i need to get some high ql olives to make compasses T_T.

[Bombattle 7]

Fair enough Doc =) and guys we really appreciate the responses from the staff. I am not a fan or in support of any type of " voting " on dev material either and Sun said it very well. They're don't actually benefit anyones time and or energy. I am a FIRM beleiver in that developers should have a vision for their game and not be swayed by small vocal members of their community however loyal they may be. Basically hold the line.

 

That being said WURM is kinda special because it in continual devlopement and has been for a very long time with many many new features and polish to come. I bet ppl would be bolstered a great deal just like they have in this thread if some Dev just plopped a post with some detail saying " Heres some of the things we are working on/considering working on as your Dev team " give us your feedback! The devs can read the comments( repsond if like or not ) Also I'm guessing you have a bug team I'd have them plop one down too..People would eat it up.

 

cheers!

 

BB

[Domhnall 68]

Yes, but they make mistakes and carry on with them pilling flaw after flaw into the game, want examples?

- The deed animal ratio, was created completely avoidable, had issues with wild animals on caves and walking into deeds, and its "blind" (meaning a player that has a 20x20 deed and devotes 10x10 to animals still has a smaller ratio than a guy with a 30x30 deed but with his animals on a 5x5). Some of these errors were "fixed" but not completely, wild animals were made to avoid deeds, but don't do it entirely, then it was necessary to put a castrating ratio on off-deed animals, which probably was removed, i think since the number of diseased wild animals has decreased, and even still with the bad ratio outside deeds (which sux for newbies btw) people were still getting along fine with keeping the bulk of their herds off-deed. So yeah a mistake, a crappy solution that didn't evolve the game.

- Then farming that although got a bit better with the posterior tweaks was only made more complex server-side, and as far as player experience it was nerfed with the possibility that if you work hard at it and the RNG helps it comes out better.

- Rolf's apparent hatred of having players know what to expect to the game that extended so far as to remove meditation answers from the wiki. Which is tantamount into asking players to read his mind or have a 1/4 (or was it 6?) chance of having to wait a month or so at a new shot.

 

Only time i saw Rolf admit a mistake and roll it back was with deed lamps and the olive oil + oil barrel thing. Was the only time he actually corrected his error and improved the game with that correction.

 

LOL jacksmith!!! But yeah, a crafting system like that would be much more entertaining.

 

Well, deed animal ratio defines itself right there.  Of course the guy with a 30x30 deed has a better ratio than the smaller deed, the ratio is set by how many tiles your deed covers not how big or small your animal pen is.  I tell you one thing it fixed though, is people calling each other hoarders and pointing fingers, because you can show you're within your deed ratio so you aren't straining the server.  As far as I'm concerned the deed/animal ratio was the best fix ever made.

 

The worst thing about the farming change was that it was just dropped out of nowhere, with no explanations about why or how it was intended to work, so how do you report a bug if you don't even know if it's a bug or how it's supposed to work now.

 

I like that the dev's are making more effort to speak to us about changes and giving us a chance to understand them before they're added to the game.  Sudden unannounced changes are much more disturbing.

[Domhnall 68]

I think one thing that would help with the repetitive creating process would be reworking the tasks that require you to activate a new object after every action, like planting seeds, adding pegs to a ship or repairing/improving a fence, to using a tool and just pulling the bulk item from your inventory.

[ReaverKane 363]

Well, deed animal ratio defines itself right there.  Of course the guy with a 30x30 deed has a better ratio than the smaller deed, the ratio is set by how many tiles your deed covers not how big or small your animal pen is.  I tell you one thing it fixed though, is people calling each other hoarders and pointing fingers, because you can show you're within your deed ratio so you aren't straining the server.  As far as I'm concerned the deed/animal ratio was the best fix ever made.

 

The worst thing about the farming change was that it was just dropped out of nowhere, with no explanations about why or how it was intended to work, so how do you report a bug if you don't even know if it's a bug or how it's supposed to work now.

 

I like that the dev's are making more effort to speak to us about changes and giving us a chance to understand them before they're added to the game.  Sudden unannounced changes are much more disturbing.

I don't think you got what i meant.

I know that's how deed ratio is supposed to work, i never said that it was bugged. What i said is that it was a mistake. It was a rushed thing that Rolf came up with in a couple of days (Rolf launched a animal discussion a couple of days prior to the deed ratio), and which was mainly due to someone complaining he was getting decreased performance near a deed with many animals. (yeah a single guy complains to Rolf in IRC and we got that).

And in the end it doesn't correspond to the reality, so a guy makes a whole deed for animal breeding, and he does just that, but some guy deeds a chunk of the server out of nothing but being the sole owner of a chunk of the server, and keeps his animals in a smaller pen than the other guy still has no penalties. I'd say that is poor planning and implementation.

[VentureCo 94]

Now this got sidetracked eh? :J

 

Well, in my opinion a lot of stuff that people complain about are really just obvious issues and don't really need a direction being given by the community. Like simplifying the creation process. Anyone who plays the game for an hour will realize this part could need an improvement. Or like the combat. There are enough "common sense" issues to work with. And the ideas on how exactly these parts could be improved should come from the devs first anyways.

 

But "Bombattle" gave me an idea:

The developers of Planetside 2 have a section on their board called "Roadmap". There they post their ideas for features or game mechanics and people can just reply what they think about it and vote it up and down. Regardless of the quality of Planetside 2 and the overall development process of that game (believe me, i could make several "Angry video game nerd" style episodes about that topic) that would work very well here.

It's kind of a pain in the ass with a big community where you have thousands of replies and hundreds of trolls, but it would be perfect for a smaller community and developer like here. A simple subforum where the devs post what features they are working on or what issues they intend to solve, and we can give feedback.

 

Like now, there would be a thread about "Reworking the UI", or "Bridges" or whatever else is currently on the schedule. Then they post a summary of the direction they intend to go ("Our plan for the UI is to make it like this: <Images> <Explanations> What do you think? Do you see any problems with that direction? Improvements?").

It doesn't even have to be with a voting feature. If nobody replies, well then everyone likes it. You know where the "Roadmap" forum is otherwise.

 

Such a feature with easy accessibility for the community helps both sides. Someone will find a flaw, point out a legit problem with the approach the devs take or just have a very good idea to improve something the devs are working on. And they will appreciate an easy way to give their feedback. Also from a developers perspective, feedback means drawing upon the strengths of your community and in the end, can simply save development time.

Edited September 20, 2013 by VentureCo