Money Distribution Improvements

[Kegan 3,926]

In my opinion if you think he is not going to take this opportunity to adjust the old side of the payouts at the same time you would be fooling yourself in the end. It would be hard to know that he is cranking down the payouts on the other end at the same time as implementing this new system.  

[Eyesgood 2,121]

Low quality, usually useless items can be "sold" to traders, merchants and tokens. Select the item, right-click and you get the option sell. You will receive up to 10 iron coins depending on quality level. We don't care if it's a hard item to make or just some nettles you've foraged. Keep it if you don't want to sell it. The action takes 3 seconds.

You can currently sell items like this for up to 5 copper per hour. If you do the math, that's several hundred items so most people will have trouble finding or creating items fast enough to sell them like this. Reboots will reset this allowance, which I see no problem with since they usually happen about once or twice per week.

--

Please try it out and give feedback,

Rolf

 

I am curious about two things.  

 

First, what does Rolf mean by Reboots will reset this allowance?  Does this mean there is a cap on the maximum total sales for a player between server restarts?  There is already a soft-reset every hour to track up to 5c of sales per hour.  

 

Second, why are some players worried about alt-farming this feature?  If I read this right, Rolf has created a new and legitimate (although very low wage) way to make an income in Wurm.  It will benefit new players the most because they have the most to gain from it.  However, vet players will glean from it as well because more money will get traded around.  It is a win-win.  But if a veteran player parks 10 alts at a token and pulls coin, I see no reason to villify the practice if someone wants to waste their life in Wurm selling worthless junk they picked up or if they unload 1000 items they crafted in a skill-grind fest.

 

Overall, I think it is a brilliant solution, well thought out and generous.  Hey, you don't even need access to a trader or token.  Just visit a merchant!  

 

One more thought:  a skill for this?  Maybe Recycle skill with 50 being Peddler, 75 being Junk Dealer, and 90 being Junk Yard Dog!

 

Great job Rolf!

[KunAlt 844]

There is no need to be rude.  I did read it more than 2 times and I did think about it.  I then posted my concerns based on how I read it.  If I did not read it exactly the same as you, that does not negate my right to post what I perceive as a concern

 

Srry, i didn´t mean to be rude, if that is how you interpreted it I sincerely apologize, i just tried to point something that was very clear for me but some people didn´t noted.

[bp1986 173]

*really long post - too long to quote*

I would love a system in place where I could accept bulk planks from people.

[viruskiller 105]

i have a few private traders and to be honest i don't care if it drops below of what they get now, as long as they can pay for deed upkeep and a few copper profit is fine, and the 10 iron per action is great, also the 5 copper per hour is a bit low, it should be higher but under 10-15c.

 

 with a 3 sec timer u can only do 1200 actions per hour that's 1.2 s, anyway no newbies have access to a 3 sec timer so they can probably pull out 400 600 actions per h at most, but they can't find work every day so to compensate the price should be a lot under the amount  they can get by working for players so it won't affect the market.

   

 

 with the current idea it would take one about 200 h to get the 10 s for a month of prem, that's like 6-7 h a day while the ones owning a trader just have to visit it once in a while and get more than 10 s a month.

  so if the money would be in the 10-15 c range one would need 2-3 h to get enough to pay for prem time and since only those with no rl jobs/no traders owned  need this money they probably play for alot more than 3 h.

 

 

  so in a way increasing the amount per h wouldn't allow ppl with traders to get rich, but would allow both groups to play free to some extent.

  and the thing is that it would boost the economy this way, because any1 has acces to a token, and i saw many key items at 1-10 c price that can help alot for a newbie, so is a quick way into getting that needed mooring rope for a rowboat or a better pickaxe than the one u get for free. and the list can go on.

[viruskiller 105]

I am curious about two things.  

 

First, what does Rolf mean by Reboots will reset this allowance?  Does this mean there is a cap on the maximum total sales for a player between server restarts?  There is already a soft-reset every hour to track up to 5c of sales per hour.  

 

Second, why are some players worried about alt-farming this feature?  If I read this right, Rolf has created a new and legitimate (although very low wage) way to make an income in Wurm.  It will benefit new players the most because they have the most to gain from it.  However, vet players will glean from it as well because more money will get traded around.  It is a win-win.  But if a veteran player parks 10 alts at a token and pulls coin, I see no reason to villify the practice if someone wants to waste their life in Wurm selling worthless junk they picked up or if they unload 1000 items they crafted in a skill-grind fest.

 

Overall, I think it is a brilliant solution, well thought out and generous.  Hey, you don't even need access to a trader or token.  Just visit a merchant!  

 

One more thought:  a skill for this?  Maybe Recycle skill with 50 being Peddler, 75 being Junk Dealer, and 90 being Junk Yard Dog!

 

Great job Rolf!

well ppl don't even need all alts loged on at once and farming, can't alt tab that much with a 3 sec timer, maybe 2 at once.

  also ppl can have more alts to exploit the 1 h limit.

 so imagine one has  30 alts, logs in 2 at once farms and logs out

that takes around 4 min, 1 to log in, 3 to farm,  so  it needs 40 min to run trough 20 alts and in the next 20 min he can farm another 10 alts

  so doing the math it is about 1.5 s per h.

  anyway it all comes to the real problem of getting enough items to sell. and since they not the really easy to get ones it would benefit the veterans the most since they have woa tools and high skills to get enough to keep farming

  the newbies can't even think about farming with more than 1 account because they can't make that many items that fast.

 and the third thing is the vets already have some of those items in fsb's / bsb's that they can sell right away when this comes in.

 

 

 so i'm all in for increasing the amount per h but limiting it to 1 ip and maybe blocking it for  ip's that log daily on accounts with more than 100 days play time,afterall if one got 100 days playtime it sure has the skills to get that kind of money by using those skills(maybe sell those mooring ropes i was talking about in my post above.)

Edited September 19, 2013 by viruskiller

[Vroomfondel 1,128]

rolf, if you want to clean up the database more, why don't you also allow 1000 or more items in the trash bin?  At least on my deed, the meals etc. would not be laying around by the thousands if i could trash bin them.  But it's too much a pain to load 100 only and wait to decay just so you can load 100 more later so they just sit in piles on the ground to decay naturally.

 

What, you don't sacc the meals?  Much faster way to get rid of them, and you get bits of favor and adds to the healing bonus for the village.

[Jock 184]

I haven't touched distribution in ages.

 

The silver going around may have dropped lately overall though.

 

have you considered combining all kings funds from all servers in to one pot before distributing?

 

This would be a change against people trader hogging as it would distribute money a lot more effectively and especially being a boost for low population servers giving there economies a much needed boost in trade for new players. 

 

It would also reduce the same people making more and more money from the same server(i know of many people on indy who have 5 or more traders) due to the spread, making multiply traders less appealing  to one person an additional bonus would be the spread of players following the spread of money to the once lower populated servers. making this a Big step in re balancing the current trader mechanic with a simple solution while making both player bases(pvp and pvp) support for the game stretch to support the growth of the other. 

 

just my 2 i 

Edited September 19, 2013 by Jock

[ReaverKane 363]

well ppl don't even need all alts loged on at once and farming, can't alt tab that much with a 3 sec timer, maybe 2 at once.

  also ppl can have more alts to exploit the 1 h limit.

 so imagine one has  30 alts, logs in 2 at once farms and logs out

that takes around 4 min, 1 to log in, 3 to farm,  so  it needs 40 min to run trough 20 alts and in the next 20 min he can farm another 10 alts

  so doing the math it is about 1.5 s per h.

  anyway it all comes to the real problem of getting enough items to sell. and since they not the really easy to get ones it would benefit the veterans the most since they have woa tools and high skills to get enough to keep farming

  the newbies can't even think about farming with more than 1 account because they can't make that many items that fast.

 and the third thing is the vets already have some of those items in fsb's / bsb's that they can sell right away when this comes in.

 

 

 so i'm all in for increasing the amount per h but limiting it to 1 ip and maybe blocking it for  ip's that log daily on accounts with more than 100 days play time,afterall if one got 100 days playtime it sure has the skills to get that kind of money by using those skills(maybe sell those mooring ropes i was talking about in my post above.)

IP can be circumvented if person wants it enough, depending on ISP just restarting the modem is enough.

I'd say do a limit on the NPC (token/trader/merchant) Just like traders can be drained out of money, each NPC should have a certain allowance that regenerates daily, and if enough purchases are done that NPC is done. And this is also why i suggested to remove it from tokens, although anyone intent on farming this can just purchase several merchants and it will go on and even out. That's the hard part in balancing this, on traders the initial fee and the distance thing is enough to balance out the abuse, since you can't just drop 10 inside a house and farm them. With merchants on this, you can.

 

Maybe do a geographical pool (like if you drain a token, then all tokens, traders and merchants on a ~50 tile radius will not pay out).

 

 

 

have you considered combining all kings funds from all servers in to one pot before distributing?

 

This would be a change against people trader hogging as it would distribute money a lot more effectively and especially being a boost for low population servers giving there economies a much needed boost in trade for new players. 

 

It would also reduce the same people making more and more money from the same server(i know of many people on indy who have 5 or more traders) due to the spread, making multiply traders less appealing  to one person an additional bonus would be the spread of players following the spread of money to the once lower populated servers. making this a Big step in re balancing the current trader mechanic with a simple solution while making both player bases(pvp and pvp) support for the game stretch to support the growth of the other. 

 

just my 2 i 

 

HELL NO!! I don't think its fair that servers with 1000 premium players be sharing their pool with servers with 300.

Edited September 19, 2013 by ReaverKane

[Martynas5 435]

Are there any protections from abusing it ?

[viruskiller 105]

IP can be circumvented if person wants it enough, depending on ISP just restarting the modem is enough.

I'd say do a limit on the NPC (token/trader/merchant) Just like traders can be drained out of money, each NPC should have a certain allowance that regenerates daily, and if enough purchases are done that NPC is done. And this is also why i suggested to remove it from tokens, although anyone intent on farming this can just purchase several merchants and it will go on and even out. That's the hard part in balancing this, on traders the initial fee and the distance thing is enough to balance out the abuse, since you can't just drop 10 inside a house and farm them. With merchants on this, you can.

 

Maybe do a geographical pool (like if you drain a token, then all tokens, traders and merchants on a ~50 tile radius will not pay out).

  well if they take it off from tokens then it will benefit those with merchants(the vets)

  also there are many that already have lots of traders.

if it were by me it should only be on tokens and ip limited, and if u didn't know dynamic ip's only change the last 3 digits that's way easy to detect.

  and as i said the outcome is too low to be worth the trouble, i for one wouldn't be botherd to go diging for 10 i per action  let alone doing 1-3 actions to get an item and do another  one to sell it.

[ReaverKane 363]

  well if they take it off from tokens then it will benefit those with merchants(the vets)

  also there are many that already have lots of traders.

if it were by me it should only be on tokens and ip limited, and if u didn't know dynamic ip's only change the last 3 digits that's way easy to detect.

  and as i said the outcome is too low to be worth the trouble, i for one wouldn't be botherd to go diging for 10 i per action  let alone doing 1-3 actions to get an item and do another  one to sell it.

Well, last 3 digits can be a domestic network, both me and my brother play Wurm, on the wireless network, should wurm prevent people on the same situation? Not even going about people playing on conventions, net-cafes, school/library networks, hotels, etc.

And my ISP used to change a whole lot more than just the last 3 digits.

[Jock 184]

HELL NO!! I don't think its fair that servers with 1000 premium players be sharing their pool with servers with 300.

 

the spread of wealth would increase the premium players.. on all servers.

[Hussars 511]

 

These changes will not impact how traders currently work, it's a new system as an add-on to the current one.

 

 

 

There is a cap, it's for low-ql items, with a max sell value of 10i per item.

 

 

But isn't that the point - to allow up to 5c per hour as a source of income for new players?  So why does it matter or why should the ql cap be there?  It is very likely that if someone is making high quality items, this system is not going to be profitable for them and they are likely making coin by selling their items.  

Actually, he said it would return up to 10i per item based on QL, not that it was ql limited to items valued at 10i or less.

 

Grinding ropemaking (or coal, or anything else you make a ton of items for with variable ql output) you can produce hundreds to thousands of items while grinding.  If you have things at the 11i to 1c value, that you are willing to ditch for 10i but no funds on the trader, you can sell it as junk.

 

With 2 or more alts, you can do this for up to 5c on each toon per hour (as currently described) both getting rid of "junk" taking up storage space and earning a bit of coin in addition to the skill gain.  Sure it would be a bit of work, but never under estimate the motivation of greed.

 

There are folks who have thousands of "junk" items stockpiled in bsb's and fsb's, so if they find themselves with the time, they just sit there selling junk for a bit.  Would most do this? Not likely, but someone will.  Just like someone has skilled to 100~ in multiple skills, just because they could.

 

::edit insert::  Yes he does say low quality, so the assumption can be made that it means any ql that is limited to 10i or less in value.  However, there is still an ability to game the system by bulking in 1.00 items to tank the stack ql on items that you don't normally sell  ::/edit::

Edited September 19, 2013 by Hussars

[Aum 771]

what if the ratio was based on the player, like a reputation and the same pool of money was available to them at any trader

there would be different pool for those who have placed a trader in the world vs a premium who hasn't vs non premium,

making it worth it to buy one and place it but having no need to lock it up as you could make the same as if it were locked up based on your trading reputation.

but you could also be more mobile and travel because your not locked down to a single trader you have locked up in your dungeon

 

I feel this would improve the game play  the land value and the community and make it less like "traders online" ;P

[ReaverKane 363]

the spread of wealth would increase the premium players.. on all servers.

How so?

Or are you telling me that people who bought a trader to drain from the kingdom pool, then stopped paying for premium?

Even with the new system of 5c/hour it would take 200h to pay for 1 premium.

[Emane 158]

Are there any protections from abusing it ?

 

I dont see this being a factor...will take 50 quality 99 (90+ at least)  items to max the hourly rate of 5c. He stated UP TO 10i per item DEPENDING ON QL. 

[ReaverKane 363]

I dont see this being a factor...will take 50 quality 99 (90+ at least)  items to max the hourly rate of 5c. He stated UP TO 10i per item DEPENDING ON QL. 

Yes but he didn't state that to gain 10i you'd need a ql 99. Xp

Since he assumes this is to sell low ql items. In fact if anyone has ql 100 items it would be a bit dumb to assume he'd be selling it at a NPC for 10i when he can get silver for it (depends on the item, of course, but its a ql 100).

 

And there's room for abuse, for example with multiple characters, even selling stuff like left over bow strings from skilling rope making will be a lot of items, most likely more than enough for 5-10 characters draining the 5c per hour.

[Jock 184]

How so?

Or are you telling me that people who bought a trader to drain from the kingdom pool, then stopped paying for premium?

Even with the new system of 5c/hour it would take 200h to pay for 1 premium.

A larger spread of the money would mean a larger opportunity for more players to get a share, plus the less developed severs would see a boost in there money giving the players there extra cash to buy things like bricks and tools.The aim of the traders is to spread the money as much as possible as they currently are they don't. take indy fo example the majority of land is either owned used or to close to anther deed meaning there not alot of room for new traders to be place without alot of work to do it. how ever a newer server will have larger gaps in use less used up land and less traders due to lower populations. spreading the money between all servers would mean that the people on indy who have lived off the system for years might need to actually buy premium or gold to pay for there deed for a change yes, but as an exchange another potentially new player can put down a trader ona  different server and reap some returns giving them extra money to spend on help or tools in the local economy. 

 

adding more money to smaller servers from this would give both the new adventure feel for new players and open up opportunity for work better.

 

this is imo the only way to really balance giving free money out. spread it s thin and as far as possible.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Jock

[Gamurin 55]

There should be lock for multi character players to avoid clearing kingdom coffers by player with multiple characters. Lock for ip address isn't enough because old players still will drain traders and new will still will have hard life. This change should be smart enough to block multiple accounts from draining the system and give players equal chance to earn some iron/coppers etc.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Gamurin

[alaskanbob 225]

How many people do you think will spend their entire day logging in alts to make a few Copper an hour? Probs a handful, if that. If that is how they want to play the game then have funn. That sounds tedious to me. It helps the new guys out the most who want the few copper to buy some starter things. Most of us I'd assume are more interested in running around building and whatnot.

Combining trader pools would benefit servers with a high # of traders. I.E. Indy. Some of the less populated servers have significantly higher payoffs.

[Hussars 511]

[...]

Combining trader pools would benefit servers with a high # of traders. I.E. Indy. Some of the less populated servers have significantly higher payoffs.

 

Like Pristine and Release?  They are technically part of Freedom...

 

While I'm not for or against the idea, I can already see how that will likely go over lol

[Suntzu 644]

O man you guys didn't think about all the options here, you just made it easy to make free alts on pvp home servers to ruin the economy.

 

This should be a prem only feature or you leave open the door to economic griefing of the home servers.

[Evilvision 301]

There should be lock for multi character players to avoid clearing kingdom coffers by player with multiple characters. Lock for ip address isn't enough because old players still will drain traders and new will still will have hard life. This change should be smart enough to block multiple accounts from draining the system and give players equal chance to earn some iron/coppers etc.

 

I think I can speak on behalf of a lot of "old" players by stating that in 1 hour time we can certainly make way more by crafting that we can by gathering crap to click on a token.

[Emane 158]

You can currently sell items like this for up to 5 copper per hour. If you do the math, that's several hundred items so most people will have trouble finding or creating items fast enough to sell them like this.

 

Dont see an army of alts making hundreds of items per hour to make 5c each at all!

 

also as I understand it,  'normally useless items' would indicate items that trader will not give a price on . IE items that get price says "[14:20:32] A trader would deem this pretty worthless"

 

regardless is all speculation till those testing on test post their results and observations. 

Edited September 19, 2013 by Emane