Posted September 8, 2013 I do not believe that a mini map is a good idea However a map that your character can look at and get a general idea of the islands topography would be / Could be Fun , and useful yet not be too much of a give away. Further I suggest in addition a cartography skill system. that would work similar to fog of war on these topographical maps. If you enter an area unfamiliar to you and you stand in one place and choose to detail the map you character will sketch further detail onto the map of what he can see to the best of his skill. This would be a fine addition to the explorer aspect of the game. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 8, 2013 Some sort of In game map can be good. In game maps can be done very good, or very bad. Use caution. An in game map that shows all locations of enemy towers is bad, unless of course you or an ally spotted that tower. Some maps can help you from getting lost in a forest, while other maps could be useless in a forest. Depends on how it is implemented.There is an old Wurm saying, if you get lost, cut down the trees around you an align yourself to the White or Black light and use your compass. Also, Fog of war with maps when implemented should be a must. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 8, 2013 (edited) No community map has "fog of war" elements. Players have never pushed to change the community maps to include such a feature. Granted we have never had the tools to do it either. I'd argue attempts at stopping maps dumps and telling folks to get out and explore are closely aligned with the "fog of war" mentality. At least on PvE maps need to be completely revealed the minuet a new player pushes m-key for the first time. I say this based on the history of community maps and maps in general that I have mentioned many times the past few days. It will be hard for new players to figure out how to get from a to b if their map is all fogged out. Edited September 8, 2013 by joedobo Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 8, 2013 (edited) I really wish the priority wasn't adding even more things, fix what is already there and expand upon features that were never finished to begin with(ex: paper) This is a major trend that keeps happening every update Edited September 8, 2013 by WesncIsMe Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 8, 2013 Ooh pls let us have a map with the location of where u are at all times that u can open at all times, a dream would come true Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 8, 2013 (edited) Yay Wall of Text Warningâ„¢! I'm torn on this subject since I see the usefulness of an in-game map, however I also understand there are people who don't want to be on the map in general, and who police the community maps to ensure they remain off them. Custom, and shareable, maps removes this sense of control from those players. Some of the players who are the most helpful, do not have their deeds listed on the community map, so it's not an antisocial issue, they just like their privacy. On the other hand, a shareable map allows those same people (or anyone wanting to help) to more easily direct lost or new people to where they're trying to go. With an unlimited (or high amount of) waypoints/markers, you can use a specific color for the marker and even add the roads. Funny thing is, I don't mind having my deed listed on the community map, because it was my choice to do so, but if the new map system draws on the community map/or just auto populates the deed locations, I'm likely to ask for my deed to be delisted if it is an option. Yes, I read the comments about it not doing this, but there is an apparent fear that it could be changed later because it was felt to "best for the new players". Just something about the concept of that much detail being available in a game about personal as well as character ability not being tied to a skill bothers me. At the same time, a tool that doesn't give you at least that much function is not really any better than not having it. My personal concern is that once this tool is built, tested and launched, the next wave of feedback from the map users is most certainly going to be "It's mostly useless without the ability to know where I am without asking someone, which defeats the point of the map." Now my personal opinion is if the concern is the first 5 or even 40 hours, better gameplay tutorials (i.e interactive, not simply video) would be a better use of time. From my in-game experience, it's not the lack of map that "drives" folks away, it is the lack of clearly defining/setting expectations of how the game plays. Make them optional if you like, but give a new player a better depth of the knowledge they need to survive, and this includes combat. Maybe have the player need to make some basic tools in place of giving them the tools, this reinforces the skills they're learning. Last time I went through the tutorial, I only had to make a mallet. By the time I had cleared the tutorial, I couldn't tell you how to make one again. A simple progression from gathering materials, which carries over to basic fabrication, which carries over to gathering/creating higher tier goods. Yes the tutorial would last MUCH longer, but you now control their first few hours of gameplay experience, and establish better expectations of how the game plays, without overly "holding their hands" to do it. When they complete the tutorial, they get the starter set like they do now, as a reward, and maybe an in-game book about various topics, like house building, more experienced/advanced crafting (armor/boats/etc...), with the content taken right from the wiki articles (static page, not a dynamic link to the wiki). Or use this "book" as a player's almanac, which expands or replaces the current in-game wiki search. Edited September 8, 2013 by Hussars 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 9, 2013 Please keep in mind that as far as i've read using the map or even viewing is entirely optional. it's not like the new map window will consume 1/2 if the game window and be uncloseable or shrinkable. If you are (of all the disturbing things on earth?) so deeply disturbed and dismayed that a map in game exist just close it and never open it again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 9, 2013 I would think only general maps would be feasible to program. Detailed maps would be changing all the time due to player landscaping effects. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 9, 2013 (edited) Please keep in mind that as far as i've read using the map or even viewing is entirely optional. it's not like the new map window will consume 1/2 if the game window and be uncloseable or shrinkable. If you are (of all the disturbing things on earth?) so deeply disturbed and dismayed that a map in game exist just close it and never open it again. Personally, I'm not dismayed by an inclusion of a map. As I said, there are pro's and con's to it. But lets look it like this, based on comments from the dev team, this is to address one of the issues new users face that "drives" them away from the game. As it has been described, it is less useful than the community map. It only shows the starter town and the general landmass (either from the raw dump, or an updated version of it). The purpose of a map is to find your way to or from someplace else. This requires you to know where you're trying to go and where you are. Two things a new player isn't likely to know. To make it more useful, they may add the ability to create waypoints/markup/etc... again, not a problem, but still doesn't address the issue of new players not knowing where to go in order to place those markers on their maps in relation to where their characters may be standing. So the next logical request will be for a "You are here" indicator on their map, because otherwise, the map has less functionality than the community map. Why use the dev time to make a potentially "gimped" tool when you could simply link the community map to your in-game UI version and be done with it? Look through the threads related to this map decision and you can already see experienced players asking for the "You are here" feature, do you honestly think more people won't ask for this once an in-game map is working? Which leads me to believe, there is already an intent to include these types of features, even if it is brought online in phases, or else there is no real reason to include it at all. A map is of limited use to a person who doesn't know where they are or where they want to get to. If they are just exploring, since you always spawn in the same spot if you're not deeded/a citizen, they should know which general direction they ran off from last time. If they don't remember which way they went, the map is still of no help to them. ::edit insert:: If you tie it to a skill (or just have it auto-fill with no skill needed), as part of the new player gear, provide a no-drop quill and papyrus/map set, as they explore, the map fills in the same level of detail as the initial planned map the art team has shown. At least that will provide a general direction the player has already explored, in the case they need to recover their corpse/gear. Edited September 9, 2013 by Hussars Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 9, 2013 Yay Wall of Text Warningâ„¢! I'm torn on this subject since I see the usefulness of an in-game map, however I also understand there are people who don't want to be on the map in general, and who police the community maps to ensure they remain off them. Custom, and shareable, maps removes this sense of control from those players. Some of the players who are the most helpful, do not have their deeds listed on the community map, so it's not an antisocial issue, they just like their privacy. On the other hand, a shareable map allows those same people (or anyone wanting to help) to more easily direct lost or new people to where they're trying to go. With an unlimited (or high amount of) waypoints/markers, you can use a specific color for the marker and even add the roads. Funny thing is, I don't mind having my deed listed on the community map, because it was my choice to do so, but if the new map system draws on the community map/or just auto populates the deed locations, I'm likely to ask for my deed to be delisted if it is an option. Yes, I read the comments about it not doing this, but there is an apparent fear that it could be changed later because it was felt to "best for the new players". Just something about the concept of that much detail being available in a game about personal as well as character ability not being tied to a skill bothers me. At the same time, a tool that doesn't give you at least that much function is not really any better than not having it. My personal concern is that once this tool is built, tested and launched, the next wave of feedback from the map users is most certainly going to be "It's mostly useless without the ability to know where I am without asking someone, which defeats the point of the map." Now my personal opinion is if the concern is the first 5 or even 40 hours, better gameplay tutorials (i.e interactive, not simply video) would be a better use of time. From my in-game experience, it's not the lack of map that "drives" folks away, it is the lack of clearly defining/setting expectations of how the game plays. Make them optional if you like, but give a new player a better depth of the knowledge they need to survive, and this includes combat. Maybe have the player need to make some basic tools in place of giving them the tools, this reinforces the skills they're learning. Last time I went through the tutorial, I only had to make a mallet. By the time I had cleared the tutorial, I couldn't tell you how to make one again. A simple progression from gathering materials, which carries over to basic fabrication, which carries over to gathering/creating higher tier goods. Yes the tutorial would last MUCH longer, but you now control their first few hours of gameplay experience, and establish better expectations of how the game plays, without overly "holding their hands" to do it. When they complete the tutorial, they get the starter set like they do now, as a reward, and maybe an in-game book about various topics, like house building, more experienced/advanced crafting (armor/boats/etc...), with the content taken right from the wiki articles (static page, not a dynamic link to the wiki). Or use this "book" as a player's almanac, which expands or replaces the current in-game wiki search. one of the suggestions I once made was using the skill cartographer system (rather implement it XD) and then add a little option into every deed setting, so that deed owners who dont want their settlement on the map simply click "dont show on map" or "wont be drawn on map" etc. I think there were alot of ideas already (my thread got achieved i think) that solved alooooot of those "issues" most players have with maps and still think it's neccessary that rolf implements maps, cause he can't rely forever on the community since somewhen somewhere maybe someone will stop doing it and no one wants to take over (well thats worst case of course) but rolf has for sure all the tools to implement it as game mechanic so it can't be abused in any way Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 9, 2013 (edited) I remember that discussion as well Miretta, again, there are pro's and con's to the idea as currently presented. I think the team is doing good work on pretty much everything right now, and while I myself truly don't care if they do create an in-game map system (skill based or not), if they do, I want them to make one that has value. A blank map showing little land mass detail and only the starter deed(s) by default doesn't seem to add value for any player who has no idea where the hell they are to start with, even when looking at a map. Because if they aren't at the starting town, they are not likely to know where they are to get to any place else. They'll still likely need to hit the community map to find the deed they're closest to in order to get their reference point to navigate from. But ultimately, I'll wait to see how it works before getting pissy about it lol. Edited September 9, 2013 by Hussars Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 9, 2013 I remember that discussion as well Miretta, again, there are pro's and con's to the idea as currently presented. I think the team is doing good work on pretty much everything right now, and while I myself truly don't care if they do create an in-game map system (skill based or not), if they do, I want them to make one that has value. A blank map showing little land mass detail and only the starter deed(s) by default doesn't seem to add value for any player who has no idea where the hell they are to start with, even when looking at a map. Because if they aren't at the starting town, they are not likely to know where they are to get to any place else. They'll still likely need to hit the community map to find the deed they're closest to in order to get their reference point to navigate from. But ultimately, I'll wait to see how it works before getting pissy about it lol. Pretty much my opinion too. That last sentence I view it differently. Perhaps I'm living in a dream land thinking that the Devs will actually listed to the players. I point out some counter points to other people's logic because I'm afraid the Devs will listen or implement to some of the things being said on these forums. In this map case there is good evidence that a gimped map is a waste of dev time. I'm seeing a lot of comments making up forum majority that DO NOT agree with what has actually happened with the past three map related ( JKH-MRH, Indy, Deli-others). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 10, 2013 like how the approaches going to .. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 10, 2013 I like the idea of a map that shows gps after the compass settles. I have always hated having to alt tab to look at a web page to play this game. The current tutorial doesn't teach you much about surviving, So anything you can do is great. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 10, 2013 bridges will be better idea Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 10, 2013 The maps will come into the game, and for that I am saddened. because I know that it won't just stop at maybe a blank slate, but will continue till we have ingame maps similar to those found in other games. There will be an addition here and there of things, people will complain that the map isn't detailed enough, and pretty soon we will have a full blown map like many folk fear will happen. What I say is don't, just don't add an ingame map. For the love of Vynora leave the maps to the forum ones. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 10, 2013 The maps will come into the game, and for that I am saddened. because I know that it won't just stop at maybe a blank slate, but will continue till we have ingame maps similar to those found in other games. There will be an addition here and there of things, people will complain that the map isn't detailed enough, and pretty soon we will have a full blown map like many folk fear will happen. What I say is don't, just don't add an ingame map. For the love of Vynora leave the maps to the forum ones. If you don´t like it then don´t use it. Is not that complicated. Live and let live. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 10, 2013 +1 for maps and local area HUD, also +1 for an option to turn it off for the players who dont want it for the "survival aspect" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 11, 2013 looks very nice my main mans/womans, but will there be medieval instruments in the future? (for ex: lutes, flutes, war drums, harps, etc...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 11, 2013 Just wanna throw my 2cents in here... When i first started playing wurm i was lucky enough to be part of a group who were very keen so i found it extremely easy to get into the game, some time later on returning to the game on a fresh account i did not have the same advantage. If you are really looking into the first 5 hours of play then i would recommend looking into these problems: - Selecting server (not enough info)- Finding a place to settle that doesnt already have buildings or an army of mobs.- Finding clay after deciding on a place- Dying and then finding the original place you wanted to live TBH my thoughts are getting up and running are the worst first moments of play wurm when you first come to the game. Something that has always bugged me is the items you get when you first start out. Why not give each fresh account a low ql set of leather armour and the choice of weapon and shield instead of short sword and large wooden shield. Anyway thats my thoughts 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 11, 2013 (edited) I am always excited to see the game grow and change. Players or GM should not fear any changes. Its a great game run by great people and will only get better. Don't fear. Just do it. If its wrong you find out and change it back. Edited September 11, 2013 by Gramuly 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 11, 2013 (edited) As Hussars mentioned above the overall best approach would honestly be to make the map a link to the already existing community maps. We as the players have been managing these maps for the aid of all, the only problem is that it's more of a secret than common knowledge. The devs shouldn't have to reinvent the wheel and make a new map system of any sort if we have already been making maps that are helpful and practical. Where the real problem falls is with us, the players. We hold the key to maintaining the best balance to enriching the reception of new players. We really need some form of player or alliance run academy. A refuge for the new players to settle and learn. Of course we all know those lost causes that feel they are entitled to have everything spoon fed to them and there is nothing we can do about them, nor should we for the play style of this game. The other aspects mentioned would make life a little easier and would be interesting to see how they are implemented. One thing I know hurts new players and old players a lot but hasn't been mentioned is abandoned and greifed mines. Falling through the floor of a mine because some genius mined in one spot until the tile appeared flat again is aggravating I'm not sure of the best way to fix this problem. Perhaps a limit to how steep you can mine out one corner?Respectfully,Auvry Edited September 11, 2013 by auvry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 12, 2013 I really like the idea of some kind of map ingame. A good general map that shows the major highways and a little bit more detail around Esert along with a more general view of the rest of the map would be very, very helpful without hurting the overall game experience. Adding in the ability to make your own markers on it, and/or a map skill to make more detailed maps of other areas would be cool as well. Something similar to what FFXI had would be good; even the maps of the individual areas are not super detailed, but they show enough that you can get your bearings. Perhaps tie the map to having a compass in your inventory for more accuracy for those who want a little more detail. The challenge to me isn't that the details are all bad as much as making sure that, outside of the starter areas and major highways, that the details are genuinely earned in game rather than being automatic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 12, 2013 Wow, alot of talking about maps. I dont think they are needed but if they are put in they should probably have some detail to them (or else they will be fairly useless to those who would use them). First, I do think that any sort of "You are Here!" is bad. Second, I think the maps should start out simple like have already been shown, very basic dimensions of the server. Third, I think the maps should be moddable however. If a player wants his map to have extra, make it and place in map folder for yourself. Or, if someone else has made a community map on the forums, download it and place in map folder. This will make the maps useful for those who want that. To me a map should be more orientiering yourself and give you general location and direction heading. You can get this now by looking at the forums, giving this in game for players that may not think about the forums is not a bad thing. Letting players do more if they want (up to a point), ok I can live with that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted September 12, 2013 Running from a spider, get lost in the woods. Look at the map and bam you know where you are. Would prefer a beacon type thing you mentioned or just an in-game version of the community map. None of the "you are here" kinda things or it would be ruining what alot of people fine fun. Maybe you failed to read the part where it says there will be no "you are here" marker. Meaning you can't look at the map and instantly find where you are, its the same as playing windowed with community map open. Actually the in-game map has less features. Of course prejudice, ignorance, and well, some other bad words i'd like to say, but best not, will always stand in the way of making wurm a better game, because what prevails on many of the older players is the "if i had to go through it, then everyone else will have to" kind of sentiment. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites