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Arhad

Why Dose Wurm Not Have A Deed Siege Timer?

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Why dose Wurm not have a deed siege timer?


 


Much like EvE's station timers deeds could be set up to allow there owners the chance to fight invader's with out having to have a 24/7 watch guard and rage pings when your attacked.


 


 


For tho's of you that don't know how station timers work in EvE online, its a system that allows you to set a timer for attack on your station's +/- a few hours of randomness.


 


Say your normal play times between the hours of  5pm to 10pm  you would set your station reinforcement timers to 7pm.


 


Someone comes along and attacks your station on a Monday at 11:30AM at 20% HP it enter the reinforced mode, at it would exit the reinforcement between 5:00PM and 9:00PM  Tuesday it comes out of reinforced. ( your timer +/- random 2 hours)


 


Now both party's are there. The attackers show up to finish the job as they know around what time it was set to come out of reinforced.if you want to finish attacking the station you have to defeat the people your fighting.


 


If they defeat the attackers in battle they get to rep the station. if they attackers win they get the station.


 


 


 


Same thing could be done with Wurm and walls. at 80  damage a wall would enter reinforced and then from then on out it would work just like the the above thing with the point, if the walls being attacked no Fixing can happen.


 


 


 


So, now you get real fights at every deed drain, and it put's a end to these stupid bashing wall and raiding a deed in a few hours while the owners and friends sleep. This way your given the chance to attempt to fight back.


 


 


I dislike Raiding party VS wall.


 


 


Wouldn't raiding party VS Defenders be better? and way more fun?


 


 


 


 


 


 


 


And before any one says REALISM,  Priests, Magic, Spirit Templar's, Dragons, Goblins,  Re-spawning When you Die, Mail Boxes, Demons, Gods.


 


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That is actually a pretty good idea if you want to boost the odds of people attempting to defend. It could be 'realismed' into things saying something like "the spirits are reinforcing the walls but they can't last forever !" or some other line.

Your part about "if the walls being attacked no Fixing can happen" however I'd be on the fence about.

Edited by Elen

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That is actually a pretty good idea if you want to boost the odds of people attempting to defend. It could be 'realismed' into things saying something like "the spirits are reinforcing the walls but they can't last forever !" or some other line.

Your part about "if the walls being attacked no Fixing can happen" however I'd be on the fence about.

well, that part come from past playing, bashing a wall can take FOREVER, and if you cant get in to kill the guy, and if you can repair 20 damage a action and the guys attacking can only deal like 3 or 4 an action...

 just think how freaking hard it would be to bash a sea wall that you cant set up catapults for if its like a 80QL wall.

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The issue with this is that


A, you have to take down many sets of walls generally, and limiting the walls to 80 damage would still prevent you from hitting all the other walls with your catapult


        Catapults do 20 damage a hit, so you can already set up 5 catapults firing at the same wall to instantly destroy it.


 


B, It forces people to attack a deed when you want to be attacked, not when they have organized to do an attack.


 


Generally people try to recruit people from all time zones to avoid this issue, as long as one person is on to repair the walls, generally a normal raiding party wont get in.


Preventing people from repairing walls isn't really a good idea, as it stops defenders from being able to repel a raid by undoing the catapults damage.


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Are you suggesting after a deed is raided the first time, that if it's raided again, the 2nd time when the timer is up that the entire deed coffers are to be drained and the deed disbanded?


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If you have played eve this is a familiar concept but I guess it might help to have two different explanations (not that mine will likely be any better but here we go).

The basic idea of a siege timer is when you first attack a settlement, the settlement would go into a mode where you couldn't actually knock down the walls yet. This mode would last until the timeframe the deed had already established as its window of playtime (would be a deed setting, probably a 4 hour daily window would be good). Once the designated time arrives the settlement would become vulnerable to attack for that window of time.

The only obvious problems would be people removing loot, but then again with merchant safes and alts, meh, the loots gone either way much of the time.

Edited by Elen

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The issue with this is that

A, you have to take down many sets of walls generally, and limiting the walls to 80 damage would still prevent you from hitting all the other walls with your catapult

        Catapults do 20 damage a hit, so you can already set up 5 catapults firing at the same wall to instantly destroy it.

 

B, It forces people to attack a deed when you want to be attacked, not when they have organized to do an attack.

 

Generally people try to recruit people from all time zones to avoid this issue, as long as one person is on to repair the walls, generally a normal raiding party wont get in.

Preventing people from repairing walls isn't really a good idea, as it stops defenders from being able to repel a raid by undoing the catapults damage.

 

 

 

 

a timer would be a 1 time thing, bash 1 wall start the timer. timers done you can bash to your hearts content as the defenders are there to try and fight you off.

 

 

this systems works extremely well for eve to encourage fighting, 

 

 

"B, It forces people to attack a deed when you want to be attacked, not when they have organized to do an attack."

 

 

This is a none issue you know near what time its coming out of reinforced, and you can reform then for the attack, and the defender can BE there to defend.

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On the note of Kag's item B : I will note that it is not uncommon to smack a whole bunch of different places to keep alliances guessing what the real target is. Fun drama too that way.


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-1

It's not DFO

so long as deeds keep getting rolled while people sleep, the PVP sever will remain dead and have a very low population.

 

 

and im not sure how you got DFO out of the OP.

Edited by Arhad
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so long as deeds keep getting rolled while people sleep, the PVP sever will remain dead and have a very low population.

 

Adding more restrictions will NOT add to pvp, restrictions do just that - restrict, they don't add anything, and people always find some ways around those.

 

If you want more pvp you should think about pvp motivation - how can it be changed and renewed, so that more people get interested in pvp.

 

The system proposed by you suits only defenders. If attackers and defenders live in different time zones, I don't think attackers will wait 12 +-5 hours till defender's deed attack window opens at time that suits defender perfectly. Attackers may just go to sleep, and there will be no pvp at all.

 

The other point I would like to get your attention at, is what kind of walls start the timer and tell attackers when it will be possible to brake it? The walls that are on deed, deed+perimeter, or any wall in general? Does it mean that when I want to bring down a wall to clear out the territory from rubble left from the previous settler who doesn't play for 2 years, it will start a timer he set 2 years ago and will have to wait till late night to destroy the damn thing?

 

What if attackers build their walls around the gates of my small settlement? Will it count as siege and reinforce those too if I bash em to get out? Or do I have to bash my own walls to get out fast, and thus open the passage to the enemy myself?

 

What you don't think of, before proposing such system,  is that in EVE (as well as in DFO) the station (or hamlet, or player city) - is actually a ONE BIG OBJECT - which is not true for Wurm, as walls, fences, floors are all different objects.

 

 

If your main goal is to add more interesting pvp - consider adding motivation to it instead.

 

If you want pvp only at the time that suits you and only you - consider playing on pve server.

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so long as deeds keep getting rolled while people sleep, the PVP sever will remain dead and have a very low population.

 

 

and im not sure how you got DFO out of the OP.

 

I am not sure if you are aware but we have only  1 Server for EU, USA and rest of the world.

How can you adjust the Siege timer?

Who is going to be Sieges at night? or you are just looking for excuse and title to siege at your timezone.

 

About low population its of course bullish.

Epic cluster has average 40% online from whole Wurm population every day. I wouldn't call it low.

 

 

The second thing is:

 

The only obvious problems would be people removing loot, but then again with merchant safes and alts, meh, the loots gone either way much of the time.

 

 

In this case nobody would raid anything. No loot = No Profit = No Raid

Easy.

Edited by vill

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Adding more restrictions will NOT add to pvp, restrictions do just that - restrict, they don't add anything, and people always find some ways around those.

 

If you want more pvp you should think about pvp motivation - how can it be changed and renewed, so that more people get interested in pvp.

 

The system proposed by you suits only defenders. If attackers and defenders live in different time zones, I don't think attackers will wait 12 +-5 hours till defender's deed attack window opens at time that suits defender perfectly. Attackers may just go to sleep, and there will be no pvp at all.

 

The other point I would like to get your attention at, is what kind of walls start the timer and tell attackers when it will be possible to brake it? The walls that are on deed, deed+perimeter, or any wall in general? Does it mean that when I want to bring down a wall to clear out the territory from rubble left from the previous settler who doesn't play for 2 years, it will start a timer he set 2 years ago and will have to wait till late night to destroy the damn thing?

 

What if attackers build their walls around the gates of my small settlement? Will it count as siege and reinforce those too if I bash em to get out? Or do I have to bash my own walls to get out fast, and thus open the passage to the enemy myself?

 

What you don't think of, before proposing such system,  is that in EVE (as well as in DFO) the station (or hamlet, or player city) - is actually a ONE BIG OBJECT - which is not true for Wurm, as walls, fences, floors are all different objects.

 

 

If your main goal is to add more interesting pvp - consider adding motivation to it instead.

 

If you want pvp only at the time that suits you and only you - consider playing on pve server.

 

One last word of advice....

 

For the fifty millionth time.... there is NO motivational tool to increase a normal person's (most MMO Players) desire to PvP. A normal person's desire is to defend what they have, and to build more to defend, NOT go out and kill to get more. Not even for revenge. There is an unspoken Law, a Rule, that says NO to Murder... even in a "Pixel" virtual world. Most Players associate their character as themselves on some level, so if they get their character to kill another, then THEY have killed another. That "barrier" to PvP can not be breached for most MMO Players no matter what new "motivation" you come up with. Most People simply are not comfortable with PvP as a result. That is the result of centurys of conditioning and socialization.

 

PvP Players are not normal people. Take that as a compliment or an insult as you like but it is the truth. That's why you can enjoy PvP so much when the rest of us don't. At least you can. Be thankful for that.

 

PvPers must learn to Lure their Prey to their server if they want PvP more, and one way you can do that is by encouraging game changes like "Siege Timers". It worked great in EvE and I think it work in Wurm.

 

+1

Edited by Kyrmius
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One last word of advice....

 

For the fifty millionth time.... there is NO motivational tool to increase a normal person's (most MMO Players) desire to PvP. A normal person's desire is to defend what they have, and to build more to defend, NOT go out and kill to get more. Not even for revenge. There is an unspoken Law, a Rule, that says NO to Murder... even in a "Pixel" virtual world. Most Players associate their character as themselves on some level, so if they get their character to kill another, then THEY have killed another. That "barrier" to PvP can not be breached for most MMO Players no matter what new "motivation" you come up with. Most People simply are not comfortable with PvP as a result. That is the result of centurys of conditioning and socialization.

 

PvP Players are not normal people. Take that as a compliment or an insult as you like but it is the truth. That's why you can enjoy PvP so much when the rest of us don't. At least you can. Be thankful for that.

 

PvPers must learn to Lure their Prey to their server if they want PvP more, and one way you can do that is by encouraging game changes like "Siege Timers". It worked great in EvE and I think it work in Wurm.

 

+1

 

If PVP is not for 'normal' people, than PVP server is not ment for 'normal' people. Why do you play on pvp server if you are 'normal' and you don't want PVP?

 

And please stop this "majority of people don't want pvp" and "social conditioning" pseudo-philosophical trash, speak for yourself only. You are not majority, majority is not you - let others speak for themselves. You also completely ignore my argument about walls being separate objects, consider reading it before stating 'what works in Eve, will work in Wurm no matter what'.

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Okay so you want reinforced mode for deeds? Allow it as an option, it costs 50s for 24 hrs of reinforcement and if you have less than 60s in your coffers it doesn't work. After raiders kill all of your templars and try to drain your token they will be stopped and draining will be disallowed for x hours. That's pretty much how EVE works (also if you were comparing this to EVE you would lose your entire deed on drain and probably be forced out of the area).


 


Still sound like a good idea?


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Still sound like a good idea?

Sounds like pay2win idea which limits PvP.

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Sounds like pay2win idea which limits PvP.

I thought it was a bad idea in general. I was just properly comparing it with EVE.

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I thought it was a bad idea in general. I was just properly comparing it with EVE.

 

Its hard to compare EvE with Wurm because one strict difference: Number of players 1k vs 60k online: Solution implemented in EvE wont work in Wurm.

 

Timers would destroy PvP frequency in Wurm and profit from Raiding.

In Eve its a must because of time needed to move fleet across the map.

Edited by vill

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I think a good REASON to fight would be most helpful to wurm PVP. Granted I do not have much PVP experience, Aside from taking towers and raiding towns for their loot/coffers there does not seem to be much else to fight for. (Epic may have the whole scenarios thing going on so they might have a bit more going for them)

These are my own personal  visions of a better wurm PVP:

  • Regional (and exceptional) Resources: Only certain areas would have higher QL veins/ore in which the owners could set the market. Are the owners hoarding or charging too much for their resources? Take them out, or break in and steal what you need. *Kingdom/Alliance issues, no doubt. Something along those lines, though.
  • The OP idea to where you could set times for just a few hours in which your settlement would be much better defended while you're offline/RL. Nothing better than logging in to a ransacked deed you could have done nothing about give recruiting players on the opposite side of the planet from you. Wurm is a persistent world, the players are not. When towns were raided IRL No one just 'slept through the whole thing' and woke up in their bed on a smoldering field of ruin as per wurm. It could help, at least a little in preventing afk raiding and more player vs player in attacking/defending.
  • Kingdom Resources which would act to promote Crafting/Skilling that would also benefit Player vs Player. Holding these resources such as stone, wood, food, metal, etc in a 'Kingdom info' panel or such. These resources would be used or at least required for certain things. Perhaps every ore/shard/farm/log/etc created/harvested would give the player items as per usual it would also increase the Kingdom resources as well. The more 'food' rating the kingdom has the less it's citizens food bar depletes. Having a High QL gold vein within your kingdom would increase it's 'wealth' to hire extra guards for towers after it's QL-to-Guard limitation.
  • Naval Battles in which sinking ships of an enemy kingdom/alliance would grant much higher Battle Ranking and deplete some of their resources or become lootable for your own kingdom. Creating Kingdom-ships would consume some (or require a certain amount) of your kingdom resources (as well as having to gather your own materials: pegs, deckboards, the usual) while sailing non-kingdom ships while attacking enemy kingdom ships would have a weakened effect (similar to enemy kingdoms attacking home servers) as well as not producing any resources upon defeating. More could be done but i'll leave it there for now. Of course sea battles are not nearly as interesting without cannons but I don't think wurm really needs firearms, unless it's just for ships-- which really wouldn't make sense.
  • Map wise, i'd have to go with maybe 25% less than Inde/Chaos, Not too big but not too cramped. PVP servers are likely to never be nearly as popular as the PVE servers, let's face it. Having too much empty space just makes things feel barren and desolate. Travel for three hours and have seen no one in local. If the server is too small then you have everyone rubbing elbows.

There could be much more added to this list but I believe a lot of this is just too ambitious for wurm, but it is in my opinion that these changes would make for a more engaging wurm PVP. Not everyone will agree, many people will naysay, not to mention these are radical ideas, if I do say so myself.

Edited by Kristoff

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The system proposed by you suits only defenders. If attackers and defenders live in different time zones, I don't think attackers will wait 12 +-5 hours till defender's deed attack window opens at time that suits defender perfectly. Attackers may just go to sleep, and there will be no pvp at all.

Group vs. Stonewall is not PvP.

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-playing eve right now- This has been brought up a few different ways and I think it would be a good add on for wurm.


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love the idea but too much problems atm..


Like how long to bash down properly secured deed, the amount of dependency of alts people do and so they can secure things up, and enemies are re-spawned inside theirs deed.


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I'd be up for the whole general reinforcing deed timers thing... few changes...


 


I know for a fact that when you go to raid people it can take many hours of preparation and travel... I'd rather be allowed to send a single person over and some how "trigger" that deed so when you log in you know that I have set up a "time" for the raid... I pick however many hours away the time will be +24 so you have plenty of notice no matter what time zone you are in... so say....


 


I arrive at 1am and tell your deed I plan on raiding 3am the following day... You log in at say 7pm... see the message... Dang... they gonna raid us in 8 hours... now you might have to play a bit and go to sleep maybe you have other stuff but you have been warned... you can plan for a defense or get other people to meet for defense... would even get the alliances and stuff some time to prep for the attack... at 3am i arrive with my forces... Battle ensues. There would have to be some sort of limit for the actual battle most likely... Say after 6 hours you would have to wait 18 hours again and send a new declaration of battle. Or Every time you destroy a wall the timer goes up 1 hour. That would give you 6 hours of defense before you are safe and the attackers can keep battling up to six hours... You would mean if you can keep your base safe for 6 hours you can safely log off with your alliance/friends and come back the next day. Each person could only give out one declaration of war at a time.  


 


This would #1 make it be on the time of the attacker... but still give defense a chance to gather forces.


#2 stop griefers from griefing deeded areas. 


#3 encourage people to place/live on a deed :P 


 


I think right now as raids stand... We don't generally have enough people prepared at any given time. 1-2 people won't hold back a raiding group of 10+ :P even back in the day i think we needed 4-6 noobs to hold back 4-5 "pvpers" and i do mean hold back... thats all we could do... it was quite thrilling making trips into the mine and cutting brick and rushing them to the walls... just as our last brick went to the wall fresh ones arrived *wiped sweat from brow* :P pvp isn't too fun right now. I prefer to stay out of it generally ;P Maybe when this sorcery stuff picks up... (im not going to become one) :P 

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Wurm deeds are designed to be attacked when no one is online to defend.


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