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ReaverKane

New Farming System

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Face it..your argument doesnt hold water..you have no idea what your talking about and are flailing about trying to complain as much as possible thinking that if you protest enough..youll get your Farm for Free card back...Tich has allready emphatically stated..."This will not happen".

 

you can read that here - http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/82623-farming-yeild-nerf/page-2

 

Significant historical events say otherwise. Even the main boss Rolf has been forced to revert things because of community dispute. Sun, at this point it's simply two opinions about what's best for farming. Neither party can prove the other is wrong. It just so happens that a Dev is stubbornly siding with one party. The only way the revert ( or make it so raking increases yield significantly more, at the very least yield increases for rake time need to equal plant-n-sow yield) party can get what we want is to express our discontent. We have the right to say we don't like something and want it reverted. We don't need lots of facts to back it up.

 

When Zcul wanted to make changes to road construction he put it up in the suggestions forum . It turned out that people didn't want road construction to get harder. Zcul is a good example of a dev that puts the communities desires before his one. IMO, Tich is definitely not.

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Significant historical events say otherwise. Even the main boss Rolf has been forced to revert things because of community dispute. Sun, at this point it's simply two opinions about what's best for farming. Neither party can prove the other is wrong. It just so happens that a Dev is stubbornly siding with one party. The only way the revert ( or make it so raking increases yield significantly more, at the very least yield increases for rake time need to equal plant-n-sow yield) party can get what we want is to express our discontent. We have the right to say we don't like something and want it reverted. We don't need lots of facts to back it up.

 

When Zcul wanted to make changes to road construction he put it up in the suggestions forum . It turned out that people didn't want road construction to get harder. Zcul is a good example of a dev that puts the communities desires before his one. IMO, Tich is definitely not.

 It just so happens that a Dev is stubbornly siding with one party - I disagree..I am siding with the change thats been made. I have never spoken to tich..dont know him..or for that matter any of the other devs...I dont frequent IRC and I have no insider info on what they are planning. I side with the change thats been made because from my POV its a good change...its going in the right direction. If it were up to me Id change the farming to a once a WURM year harvest..add in weather effects and disease and pestilence. Starvation would be a factor in all gaming aspects regardless of skill....It would be something allways hanging over your head. It would then be up to the Pro farmers to keep the servers afloat during bad years...we would have a true market for farmed goods that could be bought at commensurate prices based on the amount of work that went into producing those crops. In bad years..it might even be that we have to rely on other servers for enough crops to keep people fed...IE Cross Server Economy So again..from my POV..the change is Minimalistic at best so all the whining and crying is over the top and complete drama queen over reaction...from my POV.

 

 

 Neither party can prove the other is wrong - this isnt about whats right or wrong..its about direction and balancing..again from my POV.

 

 

We have the right to say we don't like something and want it reverted - you are 100% correct. And I support your right and ability to do so. But there are no rights to personally attack people that offer a dissenting viewpoint. And just a note on the things you were mentioning in another thread - to say your just going to keep complaining till you get what you want is childish and threatening....I have plenty in this game I think should be changed..but I dont start or threaten to start an inssurection over it. I watch the changes being made ...look at the direction its going and if its going in a direction I dont like or just dont agree with I can do one of 2 things..accept it and enjoy other aspects of the game or go somewhere else.

 

 

We don't need lots of facts to back it up. - Facts are stubborn things...they tend not to go away. At best thats a poor choice of words.

 

When Zcul wanted to make changes to road construction he put it up in the suggestions forum - Yes I remember this...It was in fact a nice thing to do..however its not required..some changes need..just to be done...Not sure if your familiar with EVE online...but they are in a serious pickle...they are having to make changes to the game that are not very popular...and when they do ..they get a bunch of people who dont like the changes  go shoot everything up in a system called Jita. finally after putting up with this for a long while..they have finally realised that the vocal minority was running the game. they have had several high level meetings in which the minutes were released stating thier intention to make unpopular changes...vocal minority be damned. They are in all kinds of troubles over this...the community needs to stay out of the game design...it has been proven..if through EVE alone..that it is bad policy for sandbox games. thats not to say that the community should be kept completely out of the loop either. the WURM team drives the vision of the game..they determine priorities and follow through on those.....thats not something the community should be involved with..it has been proven...its very bad policy. However..there is really no reason not to say...let the devs throw out some projects they are working on and ask the community which they would like to see prioritized...or perhaps throw a contest on some of the best ideas from the community...."""""that fit the dev teams vision""""" the community cannot design the game and have a mob rules mentaity..thats the problem that EVE is running into..they have to make money...and MOB rules doesnt always = make money..in fact it means you will eventually loose a lot of silent players..ones who will never post on this forum..those that just like to play..but keep getting run over by the mob.

 

And just one more point on the Zcul thing...how do you know he just wasnt manipulating the mob to further his own ideas of how roads should be done? How do you know that he didnt present the idea to the dev team and it got rejected so he went to the mob?...Like I said I dont know any of the devs and I choose to see his actions in a good light...I dont have to do that.

Edited by sunsvortex

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We have the right to say we don't like something and want it reverted - you are 100% correct. And I support your right and ability to do so. But there are no rights to personally attack people that offer a dissenting viewpoint. And just a note on the things you were mentioning in another thread - to say your just going to keep complaining till you get what you want is childish and threatening....I have plenty in this game I think should be changed..but I dont start or threaten to start an inssurection over it. I watch the changes being made ...look at the direction its going and if its going in a direction I dont like or just dont agree with I can do one of 2 things..accept it and enjoy other aspects of the game or go somewhere else.

I and others are voicing our opinions. You are the one who's threatening by calling me childish and selfish. If you don't like what I have to say add me to ignore. I am simply voicing my opinion. Insurrections don't occur because one person offers a viewpoint different from the status quo. They start because many people are displeased with something.

 

You have the right to keep quiet about unfavorable game aspects. Just as I have the right to express an opinion about things I don't like. And guess what, If no one agrees with my objections nothing will happen. But if many people do agree that is a good sign that its should change.

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I and others are voicing our opinions. You are the one who's threatening by calling me childish and selfish. If you don't like what I have to say add me to ignore. I am simply voicing my opinion. Insurrections don't occur because one person offers a viewpoint different from the status quo. They start because many people are displeased with something.

 

You have the right to keep quiet about unfavorable game aspects. Just as I have the right to express an opinion about things I don't like. And guess what, If no one agrees with my objections nothing will happen. But if many people do agree that is a good sign that its should change.

You have the right to keep quiet about unfavorable game aspects - yes you do...please exercise your right as the farming change is going to stay in...regardless of protests...

 

You are the one who's threatening by calling me childish and selfish -  no...threatening to whine and stomp around tilll you get your way is Childish.

 

I and others are voicing our opinions - thats great..perfectly fine..wonderful...but do not expect me to stop with my viewpoint...I will continue to Voice mine as well

 

Insurrections don't occur because one person offers a viewpoint different from the status quo -  you were not offering a differeing viewpoint...you said you were going to keep complaining till you got what you wanted..and were going to support the cause.

 

 

 

There was a change made you dont agree with...so you come to the forums to jump up and down protest and go all bonkers over it.... its not even been tweaked yet from initial install. Sounds to me like you are mad because the change wasnt run by you first for your approval...So how is it you can possibly protest something thats not even finished yet..you cannot know if you like it or not yet as it is not finished. Tich said he would tweak it...why protest till its done and everyone sees how the finished product is designed to work??? Wouldnt it make more sense to let them finish tweaking it ....or are you afraid that once thats done people will start to like the change and yours and a couple others... little private war with devs wont gain any traction? Isnt that what all this protest is really about...you didnt get to be involved with the change... and you dont like tich?...admit it..thats what its all about....And because you were not involved with it..your up in arms..So no matter how good the end result will be..your still going to complain. The entire protest is arrogant and uninformed...There cannot be  a MOB rules mentality. Its bad mojo

 

Your a player just like me..in the end..if you dont like it you have the same options as I do...accept it or leave..those are ultimtely your choices.

 

"Change aint looking for friends....its the tune we dance to."

Edited by sunsvortex

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You have the right to keep quiet about unfavorable game aspects - yes you do...please exercise your right as the farming change is going to stay in...regardless of protests...

 

It is, indeed, highly unlikely that the change is going away. I will bet on it, though, that after some testing's been done that the apparent nerf will be reduced or reverted back to pre 1.1 levels.

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It is, indeed, highly unlikely that the change is going away. I will bet on it, though, that after some testing's been done that the apparent nerf will be reduced or reverted back to pre 1.1 levels.

Im sure it will be tweaked..but as for pre 1.1 levels..dont think we will see those again..but yeah I think they will raise it a bit ...just not to pre 1.1 levels. At least I hope not..never cared for the Farm for Free card.

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I've seen a lot of people say the old farming system was farming for free, but I don't believe that at all.  Even if you don't include the time preparing the land in the first place, it took a minimum of 2 actions to farm: sowing & harvesting.


 


The amount of harvest was guaranteed, yes, but it isn't that clear cut either.  First off, unlike mining, a portion of your crops always go back to replanting.  So if your harvest was 1 or 2 per tile you were barely making even.  If you had animals grazing on your farm, you have to replace the tiles they clear out to dirt, so even more of your crops went right back into the ground.


 


Also unlike mining, you have to wait a week to begin to see some return on your work.


 


So, you rake twice a day to get the highest yield, now adding 2 more actions to your farming.  Up until 40ish skill, you're barely breaking even between replanting & animal feed.  There's also the issue of figuring out exactly what to plant when to even get some gain from your raking.  The new system of 0 harvest from crops that are above your skill level is absolutely rediculous without some better clues as to what crops do match your skill.  The wiki doesn't offer much on it nore do the farming guides.  Ask in chat and it's half voodoo, with 20 conflicting answers.  But at least we didn't have to wait till we had 90 farming to get some useable (insert whatever rediculous high level crop here).


 


Eventually you get enough to make yourself some food and stock up on the extra, well, what do you do with that extra?  Unlike mining, again, there isn't a huge market for veggies.  I'm not saying there's no market, it's just not as widespread as being able to sell blacksmithing items.  Veggies don't do well on a trader, so they have to be sold in bulk and you have to spend a lot of time traveling to deliver them if you want to really make any money at it.


 


Ultimately those veggies will most likely be used to grind cooking.  High HFC is good not only for priests, but to get the high nutrition for extra skill gain.  Unfortunately there's no market in meals so into the trash or sac'ed in an altar they go, by the thousands.


 


Not exactly a lazy person's task.  Besides, I wasn't aware that absolutely everything in Wurm is mandated to be carpal tunnel inducingly hard.  If that's so there's quite a few other tasks that are too easy.  Hell, just logging in should involve a 30 page questionaire on French Medieval Romantic Literature with electric shocks if you miss an answer, just to prove you've earned the right to play.


 


There could have been tweaks applied to farming to make it more interesting and fun without adding needless grudgework just to even attempt to approach yields we've grown used to previously.  Low yield in winter and high yield in summer.  Mixed quality ratios with higher quality crops as your skill increases but with the same quantity yields.  Random events like migrating birds eating your crops so you need a scarecrow, etc etc. 


 


None of those fun ideas were considered, instead we just get more grind grind grind and less benefit overall with the random bonus tile to make it feel like it's a win.


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And yes farming got changed...which was the crutch the priests were relying upon to circumvent thier issues...so its a priest issue. Changing farming has just made it more visable.

 

Did I miss something? what crutch? What priest issue?

 

I looked back and saw your original post, as a priest main I am always busy every minute I'm logged in and I only do my five daily prays (sometimes) so no pray spamming. So now you know at least two priest mains. At least I can successfully claim I am no "bling spell alt"

 

Sounds more like you have issues with priests in general or are you just jelly that they can do things that you can't?

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While I haven't spoken to Sunsvortex, their previous statement comes off more as a "priest should have" other alternatives to raising their core stats, like Soul Depth.


 


Looking at the numbers being posted by some of the most well known farming/bulk produce players, since it is a safe assumption that priests are the reason for most of their produce sales, with more effort and less output form their current setup, expect the price to adjust accordingly.  If the numbers are even within the realm of reality (we're seeing a way too small reported sampling across all servers) then it may be even harder for newer players to "steal" customers by filling partial orders for the "big buyers".  Which again, equates to a potential increase in prices.


 


If you're unable to grow your own crops (or were not doing so previously), starting now means it will take a bit longer to get your skills to the point where you can self-sustain your farming.


 


::Edit due to grammar/spelling::


Edited by Hussars

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Nature skills is one of the primary method of gaining soul depth, always has been whether farming, fishing, gardening, forestry or whatever. Apart from cooking this is the area a priest will look at for getting their soul depth up. Between those two skill trees alone there are plenty of ways to gain SD so I still don't understand Sunsvortex's rant.


 


I definitely see this as a catch 22 for the newer farmers. Farm for skill or farm for quantity but the only way to get good quantity is to farm for skill. Those that take a longer term view and go all out on skill gain will eventually be better off but they will have a very lean time of it at first. I really feel sorry for them.


 


For myself it really doesn't matter. My main is 89 farming, my Fo priest has 94 farming, all I need to do is switch my Fo back to farming to help boost my output again. 


 


I still don't really understand what this fix "fixed".

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Did I miss something? what crutch? What priest issue?


 


I looked back and saw your original post, as a priest main I am always busy every minute I'm logged in and I only do my five daily prays (sometimes) so no pray spamming. So now you know at least two priest mains. At least I can successfully claim I am no "bling spell alt"


 


Sounds more like you have issues with priests in general or are you just jelly that they can do things that you can't?




Well that was part of it...the individuals argument was that his priest required 1000 meals a day to grind SD. This of course was a clear overdramatization and a weak attempt at justifying his anger at the farming change. So my counter to that was that if priests need 1000 meals a day in order to grind SD..then there was a clear issue with priests and that he should be complaining priests were broken...not farming..as priests would have been using farming to circumvent the issue of "no good way to grind soul depth except by making 1000 meals a day." 


 


But I will retain that all priests spells ..on Freedom...are bling..they are status..you can take them out of the game and it doest not stop any character from accessing any content..therefore they are a standalone addition whos benifits add to the ease of playing the game...not to gaining access to content..IE if you took out all the priests spells everyone could still do everything they do now...except of course cast spells...Content would not be limited by removal of them...so...Priest spells are in fact...bling...the "ohhh shiny" aspect of the game.(on Freedom, Epic is a different animal alltogether) This is not to say I am advocating taking them out..its only to put them in proper context.


 



While I haven't spoken to Sunsvortex, their previous statement comes off more as a "priest should have" other alternatives to raising their core stats, like Soul Depth



- Correct. - or perhaps give priests a look over and maybe they get a bonus to SD if grinding it is such a heinous act...which given a number of peoples posts in here it is.


 



 Nature skills is one of the primary method of gaining soul depth, always has been whether farming, fishing, gardening, forestry or whatever. Apart from cooking this is the area a priest will look at for getting their soul depth up. Between those two skill trees alone there are plenty of ways to gain SD so I still don't understand Sunsvortex's rant.



The argument that was being given me was that a Priest needs 1000 meals a day in order to raise their SD. Clearly this is incorrect as you and others  have listed several other options for this to happen..not to mention that the 1000 meals a day argument was complete BS to begin with and really didnt need anyone to give other options as anyone thats played a priest knows that there are plenty of options to raise SD...however if none of those are efficient enough to suit an individual players taste..then the proper way to address it would be to have priests looked at to see what they can do to get that issue resolved as that player had been relying...so he said...on farming to allieviate the slow grind of SD for his priest....Farming was changed and he got all bent out of shape because his .."crutch"...had lost its effeciency..now he would have to rely on other skills that were not as efficient as cooking to get that SD grind. SO instead of saying hey" as a side affect of that farming change..your making it hard on priests now...are you going to look into that?" he thought it better to attack farming and anyone supporting the farming change.


Edited by sunsvortex

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The crutch is they are used to the easy SD gains from pan loading compared to anything else the game offers to raise SD currently.


 


If you try it you'll see that loading 200-1000 pans and using a tiny bit of sleep bonus will give you a bunch of SD more than anything else you can do for that 5 mins of sb used.  Other actions that raise SD take hours and days and weeks even months to gain the amount of SD pan loading can in mins.


 


 


The pan loading SD gains should have been nerfed a long time ago and a lot of this worry over crop production would not even exist.


Edited by Protunia

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Come on guys, this is a thread about the farming changes.  You want to discuss priests start another thread.


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Yesterday, a friend told me about how they got 19 crops from a single tile, then 5 from the next. I assume the 19 crops was the result of a rare action.


 


This seems... wrong. Very wrong.


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Yesterday, a friend told me about how they got 19 crops from a single tile, then 5 from the next. I assume the 19 crops was the result of a rare action.


 


This seems... wrong. Very wrong.




Well I guess it depends....if you do an average over all tiles and your only getting a very few of those big harvests and the avg is still lower that pre 1.1 its still ok. Ill agree that I think thats a bit too high...but as long as the overall averages are lower I can deal with it.


 


 


I really would like to see a thriving market for farmed goods. And if your going to have a thriving market..the amount available on the current market needs to be reduced...badly. A 50% reduction in gross yield would be great. Foraging takes care of the new guys and those that are not into farming and the current market suffers from way to much product...IE the market is flooded. Farmed goods are commodities which are greatly affected by supply and demand. Those that work hard at farming deserve and should get a better harvest and a better price in a market that has a constant demand for thier goods.


Edited by sunsvortex

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19 crops for a single tile isn't unreasonable.


 


For me at 98 farm skill sowing, harvesting, and no-raking of 3 tiles will give me 18 crops. Hypothetically, it would be balance time wise if sow, harvest, and 4 rake actions (using a high ql rake) gave me 18 for one tile. Using a low ql rake would give better skill but be considerable less likely to boost yield.


Edited by joedobo

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19 crops for a single tile isn't unreasonable.

 

For me at 98 farm skill sowing, harvesting, and no-raking of 3 tiles will give me 18 crops. Hypothetically, it would be balance time wise if sow, harvest, and 4 rake actions (using a high ql rake) gave me 18 for one tile. Using a low ql rake would give better skill but be considerable less likely to boost yield.

 

To balance that out I think that regardless of skill level you should be risking a 0 harvest. There are too many factors involved that could realistically give a 0 harvest. Everyone should be risking that..it makes for a level of realism in farming thats missing.

Edited by sunsvortex

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To balance that out I think that regardless of skill level you should be risking a 0 harvest. There are too many factors involved that could realistically give a 0 harvest. Everyone should be risking that..it makes for a level of realism in farming thats missing.

If you can get the majority of the communities support for such a nerf then it should be done. IMO, realistic hardships have no place in a game you play for fun. 

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If you can get the majority of the communities support for such a nerf then it should be done. IMO, realistic hardships have no place in a game you play for fun. 




The game is based on realistic hardships..And under no circumstances should the mob be involved in such a decision....ever. Whats that quote about starving to death and being eaten by wolves?


 


Just a quick edit as I had allready went over the community interactions I thought would be acceptable -


 



Not sure if your familiar with EVE online...but they are in a serious pickle...they are having to make changes to the game that are not very popular...and when they do ..they get a bunch of people who dont like the changes go shoot everything up in a system called Jita. finally after putting up with this for a long while..they have finally realised that the vocal minority was running the game. they have had several high level meetings in which the minutes were released stating thier intention to make unpopular changes...vocal minority be damned. They are in all kinds of troubles over this...the community needs to stay out of the game design...it has been proven..if through EVE alone..that it is bad policy for sandbox games. thats not to say that the community should be kept completely out of the loop either. the WURM team drives the vision of the game..they determine priorities and follow through on those.....thats not something the community should be involved with..it has been proven...its very bad policy. However..there is really no reason not to say...let the devs throw out some projects they are working on and ask the community which they would like to see prioritized...or perhaps throw a contest on some of the best ideas from the community...."""""that fit the dev teams vision""""" the community cannot design the game and have a mob rules mentaity..thats the problem that EVE is running into..they have to make money...and MOB rules doesnt always = make money..in fact it means you will eventually loose a lot of silent players..ones who will never post on this forum..those that just like to play..but keep getting run over by the mob.


 


 


 



Edited by sunsvortex

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So anyway, my low/mid level yeilds (Skill and QL 30) have returned to somewhat similar to pre-patch levels, so I'm not too bothered. I'm still of the opinion that farming is not something a newbie can do, for survival anyway. My experience of being able to farm enough to survive (just for me) and replant, quite early in the game has gone for new players. Thinking about it, the forage/botonizing change, especially now on tree tiles could be said to balance this. In conclusion then, meh. :-)


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Well I got a rare sowing action last night so  I shall be watching that particular tile with interest.


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The game is based on realistic hardships..And under no circumstances should the mob be involved in such a decision....ever. Whats that quote about starving to death and being eaten by wolves?

 

Just a quick edit as I had allready went over the community interactions I thought would be acceptable -

 

 

This game is based on freedom to follow your chosen path. Realistic simulation and hardships are not mentioned anywhere in the games general description on the home page. That ideal is part of something a select group of players wants to see.

 

I disagree that dev should ignore customer's desire and push their own agendas. What devs should be doing is looking at the suggestions forum and find things the community wants, assessing ROI is worthwhile -- coding difficulty versus customers gained or retained, and how it might break game balance.

 

I wish we had an in game voting system that attaches statistics to each players vote. Then all majority claims can be laid to rest.

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