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AryaStark

I Would Like To Ask Some Clarifications About Chat Rules

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Hello friends,


 


I hate people using bad languages, and one of the main reasons for choosing WURM as the game to play was the fact that it seemed to have both an offensive language filter and some strict rules about chat moderation as defined here.


 


The problem is that I see a lot of things on the freedom chat which I think are breaking the rules. And the worst thing is that sometimes they (intentionally) bypass the automated filter. I always made reports when I saw someone using what I considered to be bad language, but recently a friend (who also happens to be a chat moderator) told me that some things are actually allowed (tolerated).


 


Specifically he was saying that the "f word" is allowed, while to me it seems an infraction to article three from rules, since it is both sexually explicit and obscene.


 


Other things I saw were racially or ethnically offensive remarks against certain nations - like China or some poor countries (including my country) - like saying to someone who plays without guild "you are like a Chinese who makes counterfeit goods on a ship on the international waters".


 


That's why I would like to get some clarifications - are those rules still true and applicable; does it makes sense to report any rules breaking I notice? Or they are there just mentioned, but not really enforced?


 


Thank you in advance.


 


Cheers,


Alexandra


 


Later edit: And yes, I know that there is the ignore option, but before start using it left and right (and I would probably have to use it on a quarter of the server - lol :P), I would just like to know if this is allowed or not, so I can decide what to do further. I mean if I'm said it is allowed, then I will just ignore and move on; on the other hand if I'm said it is not allowed and rules are still on, I will keep reporting and just hope people can be bringed back on the right way. :)


Edited by AryaStark

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Pretty much the entire staff that mods ingame is not payed so you can not expect them to get the person every single time. If anyone truly bothers you that much /ignore and never see a message from them again.


Edited by Rasu

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As a specific example you use the f-word. While technically it's derivation is sexual in nature, we take the context of its usage in to account. Strong language is not in itself against the rules. The context is the most important thing and strong language directed at another player is generally against the rules, while the same word might not be an infringment in other circumstances.


 


This is why moderation may appear to be variable. However, we are endevouring to allow people to let frustrations vent while preventing direct player attacks which we feel promotes an all round better experience for the majority of players.


 


As far as racial stereotyping and similar goes, we can't censor everything which has a basis for truth in the real world (the example you use is not racist imo, it's not making them out to be inferior). We do however stamp down on remarks which are obviously derogatory against a particular group.


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Eh, perhaps you should just report personal attacks and spam instead. The Chinese thing sounds more like a stereotype than racism, but I guess it all run down into opinions on how much is too much. Trying to report every single swear word won't get you far I believe, but you could always apply for CA if you really want to make a difference


Edited by san_tropez

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Well that job would fall under chat moderator rather then CA I believe.


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If the conversation is sexually or ethnically discomforting enough the cm will take action. Wurm isnt run by facists.

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As a specific example you use the f-word. While technically it's derivation is sexual in nature, we take the context of its usage in to account. Strong language is not in itself against the rules. The context is the most important thing and strong language directed at another player is generally against the rules, while the same word might not be an infringment in other circumstances.

 

This is why moderation may appear to be variable. However, we are endevouring to allow people to let frustrations vent while preventing direct player attacks which we feel promotes an all round better experience for the majority of players.

 

As far as racial stereotyping and similar goes, we can't censor everything which has a basis for truth in the real world (the example you use is not racist imo, it's not making them out to be inferior). We do however stamp down on remarks which are obviously derogatory against a particular group.

 

 

Eh, perhaps you should just report personal attacks and spam instead. The Chinese thing sounds more like a stereotype than racism, but I guess it all run down into opinions on how much is too much. Trying to report every single swear word won't get you far I believe, but you could always apply for CA if you really want to make a difference

 

Let's look at the example:

""you are like a Chinese who makes counterfeit goods on a ship on the international waters"."

 

That falls squarely under racism, it was a personal attack against a specific race of people.  I know many Chinese (or Asian for that matter) that would consider it racist as the stereotype is inaccurate.  However had the comment been without the "Chinese" and been inclusive of all ie:  "You are like someone who makes ..." then fair enough.

 

Equal Opportunity and Anti-Discrimination asks the question:  Is the statement directed at one person of race, sex, orientation, religion, beliefs OR is it a broad statement that can apply to any person?

If the answer singles out any one of the defining factors (in this case race/ethnicity) it can be deemed as racism.

 

Arya, as a parent of a child who plays online games, and am a long time gamer myself, you won't stamp out all cussing, there are always means to getting around it.  Some have smart filters, but in this case whilst it is offensive, it is rare (or at least on my server and never in my local).  I've been one to drop the F equivalent, but I pick my moments and my chat room, rarely will I be seen in global or freedom swearing, and rare still in my local.  

 

I've seen some amazingly hurtful things and some amazing snarkiness, and that's without a bad word at all in the comments.

 

 

You got to pick your fights hon, our GMs & CAs are overworked, reporting each offense (and I commend you on wanting to do so) will be time consuming not only for them, but for you as well.  Pick the moments, anything truly offensive or personally directed at someone then go ahead, the rest, treat it for what it is - nonsense.  

 

Each time you see it, ask yourself, is it venting, is it just boisterous behaviour, bad manners, OR does it hurt someone, does it make your eyes bleed, does it insult someone.  

 

:)

Mynnah

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[self-censorship]


Edited by Hula_Girl
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"you are like a Chinese who makes counterfeit goods on a ship on the international waters".

i imagine someone from china could laugh at this the same way i laugh at the spurdo sparde america comics.

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Let's look at the example:

""you are like a Chinese who makes counterfeit goods on a ship on the international waters"."

 

That falls squarely under racism, it was a personal attack against a specific race of people.  I know many Chinese (or Asian for that matter) that would consider it racist as the stereotype is inaccurate.  However had the comment been without the "Chinese" and been inclusive of all ie:  "You are like someone who makes ..." then fair enough.

 

Equal Opportunity and Anti-Discrimination asks the question:  Is the statement directed at one person of race, sex, orientation, religion, beliefs OR is it a broad statement that can apply to any person?

If the answer singles out any one of the defining factors (in this case race/ethnicity) it can be deemed as racism.

IMO racism is also required to be derogatory. Would you say it's Racist to say the Scottish don't wear underpant under their kilts? There are other peoples that wear all kinds of outfits, some similar to kilts, but because I'm specifying the Scots, that makes it racist? I don't believe so.

 

I don't believe the comment about the Chinese is racist either. Many ethnic groups produce counterfit products. As for being on a ship in international waters - that's just sensible if you're running that kind of business and shows foresight and intelligence!

 

Having said that, as I mentioned in my earlier post, context has a lot to do with any given situation, so without the rest of the chat logs it's hard to be 100% sure.

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IMO racism is also required to be derogatory. Would you say it's Racist to say the Scottish don't wear underpant under their kilts? There are other peoples that wear all kinds of outfits, some similar to kilts, but because I'm specifying the Scots, that makes it racist? I don't believe so.

 

I don't believe the comment about the Chinese is racist either. Many ethnic groups produce counterfit products. As for being on a ship in international waters - that's just sensible if you're running that kind of business and shows foresight and intelligence!

 

Having said that, as I mentioned in my earlier post, context has a lot to do with any given situation, so without the rest of the chat logs it's hard to be 100% sure.

You are like a Korean that eats spicy fermented Cabbage!!! (Not racist) Could be said about anyone who enjoys eating ethnic food of any kind with fervent belief its good for you.

 

Commenting on the legal dodging tendencies of a country that is known to do legal dodging tendencies... (also not racist)  If you said something along the lines of slanty eyes... then you are approaching racism.

 

Calling someone a capitalist pig... also not Racist.  Calling someone a Nazi, fascist, Stalinist... not racist.  It describes the tendencies of their behavior, or choice of actions.  It has nothing to do with race.

 

Assuming all Chinese are of a single race... IS racism.

Edited by Jarosz

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Let's look at the example:

""you are like a Chinese who makes counterfeit goods on a ship on the international waters"."

 

That falls squarely under racism, it was a personal attack against a specific race of people.

 

I dont see it as a racism at all. You dont say that about German ppl do you? You dont say that about American, do you? You say that only about chinese for a reason, cuz thats stereotype of that nation. But not racism.

 

Other example: Would you call it racism if some one said to chinese "Go eat a bowl of rises". maybe you would, but i dont, cuz thats what they do there, they eat rises 5 times a day. Thats stereotype of the nation again. You say that to Euro player, he would laugh you off. You say that to asian he thinks you are racist. If the truth hurts your butt that doesnt mean its racial.

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I dont see it as a racism at all. You dont say that about German ppl do you? You dont say that about American, do you? You say that only about chinese for a reason, cuz thats stereotype of that nation. But not racism.

 

Other example: Would you call it racism if some one said to chinese "Go eat a bowl of rises". maybe you would, but i dont, cuz thats what they do there, they eat rises 5 times a day. Thats stereotype of the nation again. You say that to Euro player, he would laugh you off. You say that to asian he thinks you are racist. If the truth hurts your butt that doesnt mean its racial.

 

Actually, telling a Chinese person (race) to do a stereotypical Chinese (race)  thing... is racist. To compare a person to a national tendency (multiracial Nation), is not racist.

 

Non-Racial example:  You run this factory like a Chinese Sweat Shop.  <--- Not Racist.  There are sweat shops in China.

 

Racial example: You are Chinese.. I won't work for you, you probably run a sweat shop! <--- Racist.  You assume because he is Chinese that he will run his business illegally.

Edited by Jarosz
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I believe this open letter asking for rule clarifications technically breaks the forum rules, as it's stated in them that matters like these should be taken up with moderators


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Well it isn't a challenge to moderation, it is asking for a clarification to a chat rule. No rule comes to mind that this thread would be crossing though.


Edited by Shrimpiie

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I often thought about this... there is many type of cases where moderation may or may not be needed, then there is cases where moderation is only the scapegoat to end the chat that is derogatory but will go further (the warnings etc).


 


Allways trying to figure it out have failed for me, every time trying to figure it out I create this metaphoric image in my head about the moderator trying to toe to toe over a minefield even with the most clear situation where moderation is needed. People get aggressive defensive so easily about moderation... and when emotions enter the picture, then all intelligent thought is out the window and its all about "winning or losing" the situation.


 


With that contemplation, which I have done quite several times (and I admit conducting few researching cases on the chats), its clear to me that as a "user" of the chats I must read the rules in a context that shows what its expected of me. NOT what is expected of others. The moderators will intervene foul chatter if someone (or some few) are not behaving as expected of them. With accepting this fact, it is much more clear how it works.


 


Then there is this "choice" of what paths we take. If it seems like the moderation is not effective enough, it must then mean there is not enough cognitive energy left in the moderators, which must then mean they need more energy or more capacity. (Make them feel better, or increase number of them). Any one of us may choose to be willing to take part in the moderation and write an application to become one. It is good path to take in my opinion if following apply; "I like chatting in public ingame chats" and "The language seems breaking the rules and this bothers me"... and most importantly "I am bothered only because of how I care about community, not because it is emotionally affecting me". ;)


 


Dont know why I replied in this thread, it seems Hordem did very good job explaining and answering the OP question.


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As a specific example you use the f-word. While technically it's derivation is sexual in nature, we take the context of its usage in to account. Strong language is not in itself against the rules. The context is the most important thing and strong language directed at another player is generally against the rules, while the same word might not be an infringment in other circumstances.

 

This is why moderation may appear to be variable. However, we are endevouring to allow people to let frustrations vent while preventing direct player attacks which we feel promotes an all round better experience for the majority of players.

 

As far as racial stereotyping and similar goes, we can't censor everything which has a basis for truth in the real world (the example you use is not racist imo, it's not making them out to be inferior). We do however stamp down on remarks which are obviously derogatory against a particular group.

 

Hordern,

 

First of all thank you for your explanations. Now please let me see if I get them right. So...

 

1. Pretty much, the mentioned rule set are still in place and are representing the most recent version of them.

 

2. However, they are not enforced ad litteram, but they are subject of personal interpretation of GMs / CMs, who may choose to bypass some (minor) breakings of the rules as they are listed.

 

3. Generally, the use of bad / strong language is allowed, as long as it is not directed to a specific player. So something like "F**k! I died." is not a banable offense, and by reporting it I only waste my and GMs time.

 

4. The only cases when a report is needed is when that language is directed toward a certain player like "F**k you, John! You're a f**king ret**d!".

 

5. The only way for me to avoid seeing this kind of bad language is to just ignore all persons using it (probably 1/4 of the server) or shut down completely the public chats.

 

Correct or not?

 

Once again thank you a lot for taking your time to answer my question.

 

Cheers,

Alex

Edited by AryaStark
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Use the resources given....its why they have been implemented rather than making a name for yourself as a serial reporter.


 


ps... /gchat <3


Edited by Lolly1

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5. The only way for me to avoid seeing this kind of bad language is to just ignore all persons using it (probably 1/4 of the server) or shut down completely the public chats.

 

No, you can turn on your filter, and maintain the list of words you would prefer not to see.  (It's a text file in your configurations folder : words.dat )

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Hordern,

 

First of all thank you for your explanations. Now please let me see if I get them right. So...

 

1. Pretty much, the mentioned rule set are still in place and are representing the most recent version of them.

 

2. However, they are not enforced ad litteram, but they are subject of personal interpretation of GMs / CMs, who may choose to bypass some (minor) breakings of the rules as they are listed.

 

3. Generally, the use of bad / strong language is allowed, as long as it is not directed to a specific player. So something like "F**k! I died." is not a banable offense, and by reporting it I only waste my and GMs time.

 

4. The only cases when a report is needed is when that language is directed toward a certain player like "F**k you, John! You're a f**king ret**d!".

 

5. The only way for me to avoid seeing this kind of bad language is to just ignore all persons using it (probably 1/4 of the server) or shut down completely the public chats.

 

Correct or not?

 

Once again thank you a lot for taking your time to answer my question.

 

Cheers,

Alex

1 - We always try and keep all posted rule sets up to date.

 

2 - We try and keep all rules easily black and white and enforce them, however, we do give a smidge of leniency depending on how chat is rolling t the time. I'm guessing you're mostly referring to rule 3. Most likely the inclusion of the word 'obscene' in that rule. Again, we try and stick to context. 'F* I died' is OK, wile saying 'I'm going to F* that troll that killed me' implies something more obscene or sexualy explicit.

 

3 - Correct.

 

4 - More or less, yes.

 

5 - As Seara has mentioned, you can keep your language filter on, and add words you don't wish to see to the appropriate file (Wurm directory > Players > Player name > Words.dat ).

 

 

Chat moderation is a tricky business and how we respond to a certain situation is not just dependant on the words used, but also how busy chat is, the people involved, how people are reacting etc etc, Sometimes one method of moderating will calm chat, and in other circumstances, doing the same things for the same line could make chat go crazy. A moderators role is to interpret what's going on, and take the most appropriate action given the circumstances to ensure chat settles back as quickly as possible. This can be a very tough and thankless job but one I reckon we do pretty well on the whole.

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This whole thread is dumb. Common sense should tell you we are all wurmians sitting behind a keyboard. If you need a national label for something don't use it. The justification of the Chinese comment is lame. There are many types that counterfeit. Labeling it as Chinese is unnecessary and derogatory. It is meant to make the Chinese type of counterfeiter stand apart from other types. How are they different? Because they look different? They are all criminals.

So please stop. We are all wurmians. We shouldn't need nationalities other than to figure out time zones for trading.

To both sides, there is no need to offend and there is no need to be offended. If someone is acting like a turd, ignore them. If someone is offended by what you typed, try to put yourself in their shoes and see if you'd be offended. If the answer is yes, don't do it again.

Is it really this hard for people to just act like they have some sense?

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Is it really this hard for people to just act like they have some sense?

 

+1 for /ignore

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This whole thread is dumb. Common sense should tell you we are all wurmians sitting behind a keyboard. If you need a national label for something don't use it. The justification of the Chinese comment is lame. There are many types that counterfeit. Labeling it as Chinese is unnecessary and derogatory. It is meant to make the Chinese type of counterfeiter stand apart from other types. How are they different? Because they look different? They are all criminals.

So please stop. We are all wurmians. We shouldn't need nationalities other than to figure out time zones for trading.

To both sides, there is no need to offend and there is no need to be offended. If someone is acting like a turd, ignore them. If someone is offended by what you typed, try to put yourself in their shoes and see if you'd be offended. If the answer is yes, don't do it again.

Is it really this hard for people to just act like they have some sense?

 

You can be any race, and still be a Chinese citizen.  You'd be surprised how many Caucasians moved to China in order to grow their business under the lenient/strict rules (on the side of the business owner).

 

But you are right, they could have easily called it a Russian counterfeit ring, or Indian counterfeit ring... maybe the person making the comment read something about the Chinese versions recently.  In the context he used, it is not racist nor derogatory. If you want to remain ignorant to the ways of Nation States and business... that is up to you.

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