Add Settlement Hire Option; Spirit Trader

[Jarosz 189]

Jarosz

 

Put that spirit trader on Release.   He is untitled to the same upkeep pool as the regular trader on Release.   You are looking at the yearly price and saying it works, the problem is traders payback faster than a year.

 

The regular trader paid 50s and earns it back in two months.  The spirit trader pays 25s and 2s+2s = 29s and earns back 50s in two months. The regular trader feels like an idiot now because the spirit trader pays less, made the same and thus profited more.

 

The regular trader located out in the woods with his trader empire spread the required trader distance and of course there is of course always gaps as you cannot put the marker everywhere (in water, on cliffs, in caves) .   Now the spirit traders squeeze in between with their min deeds.  Now there is way more traders diluting the pool, and the carefully crafted trader empire crumbles because only the spirit trader is able to profit from the the lesser payouts because he paid less.

 

Now next year the spriit trader says I been an idiot, this regular trader is paying nothing a month, earned back his fee long time ago, and here I am paying 2s a month.

 

This is why the system has to be one way or the other so that those competing for the same upkeep do so on the same cost basis, or you go with the other idea that spirit traders do not get distributed upkeep and they are paid for only monthly. Then you have to balance the pricing so they are affordable for the public/village trader that earns only kingdom item and bartered trade taxes because that is a low profit public service now.

 

 

Whats to keep the Trader owner from buying them himself?

 

If he is in it for the long run, then he sees that a Trader contract is better money spent for him.  in 5 years of spirit trader funds (245s) he could have purchased nearly 5 traders (and gotten 5 times the payout as 1 spirit trader).

 

Sure, it might be smarter to buy 2 Spirit traders at the beginning of a server than 1 trader (unless spirit traders only get a smaller % of the pool, they don't necessarily have to go toe to toe with current Trader payout.) But 3-4 years in, you are using a "leasing" model (spirit trader) that costs more instead of a "purchase" model that puts all the cost up front (current Trader).

[yarnevk 257]

Whats to keep the Trader owner from buying them himself?

 

 

The OPs idea that said spirit traders and owners regular traders refuse to compete with each other.  You have to chose one or the other you cannot have both.   Maybe I guess he meant alts rather than players so you could have both types of deeds I guess.

 

A car lease alternative to buying is not a good analogy, because people lease cars intending to keep it for several years.  10% of f2p converts to p2p and 25% of those that have ever paid premium remain, so long term strategy does not really apply to Wurm because the long term player is the minority and probably did not think they would play this game forever, because you do not realize you are addicted, until you are.   Now in a game like Entropia where RLM is basically the game, then you could go into it with longer term plans.  In Wurm RLM play happens and tolerated, but it is not really THE game.   I would say a long term plan being a year in Wurm would be a stretch, certainly not five years, maybe more like six months.

Edited May 16, 2013 by yarnevk

[joedobo 1,187]

lol....the long term costs of spirit traders must be equal to current traders or players will either not use them or complain when they realise its a rip off. It also seems silly to me have upkeep on a NPC that gives out subsidy money where those monies are based on gold sinks like upkeep. Upkeep needs to be ZERO or this will be a waste of effort.

 

This idea's major points are: remove spacing requirements and if you can deed you can sprit trader, I'd argue for reduction in the entry fee (25s buy and no upkeep), allow multiple Buff/shares so you don't have to place trader deeds allover the place, add deed permissions so settlements can control who interacts with the spirit trader.

[Aetherwalker 1,863]

Remove traders entirely, get kingdom items via mail order service whereby you order from any settlement token.

[Protunia 735]

How  about if you place one of these spirit templars that deeds upkeep go to this new type of traders fund?

 

I mean if you are going to have another system, might as well let the owners in the new system control where their upkeep kings funds go a little right?

 

This goes back to the fact the traders get upkeep funds from all players deeds.

[Raybarg 437]

To the op, my apologies for the slight derail here but had to say it since once again I'm being addressed personally and by name for the purpose of insult.  For clarification, since I don't always express myself in ways that make my intention clear, I like your idea. I don't see any downsides to it other than what I expressed in my other post.

 

But oh my thats why we have these forums, so everyone can express their views, ideas, opinions, etc... I am not in charge here.

[Raybarg 437]

Again a reminder, the 25s and 2s/month numbers were an example, subject to developers decisions. Those numbers could be anything, for example 50s and 0s/month or 10s and 5s/month.

 

Although 50s and 0s/month would equate to saying "convert all traders to spirit traders belonging to the village they stand on at the same time it is implemented that every deed can now hire one of those". Which would then mean no distance limits other than deed size defined limits, and every settlement can have trader regardless how close another trader is (in adjacent settlement). That would be closest to what it is. My ideas usually are not to perpetuate existing systems, but adding, changing, wrecking the cage. (in case any of you wonder why did I not choose an easy idea to suggest and went for more).

 

How about being able to hire different tier traders as one of such suggested in other thread; Spirit Shopkeeper (trader version which blunt simple just sell those items and nothing else), Spirit Banker (doesnt sell anything but gets money you can drain, hehe...), Spirit Trader (sells and buys stuff).. I could come up with more I guess. Heck, Rolf could be going for more money in "item shop style". Add Spirit Weaponsmith, Spirit Blacksmith, Spirit Carpenter, ...etc which would then sell 50, 70 and 90ql items with prices such as 20c, 50c, 1s. Surely those veteran snorting filthy rich players pay their premium time by selling items to new players with way too high value which DRIVES OFF new players because "it costs 2 euros to get half decent sword or mallet". He could add that, control the prices. Players would have to then undercut the Spirit merchants to break sales. What am I hearing? Priests? Oh, Spirit Priest, would sell scrolls of enchantments where buyer can pay 0.5c per power and choose exactly what power. Surely those priests are too good moneymakers, they should be controlled too. And make it so good no player can easily get money from other players, all those money would be bluntly sunk, no recirculation. Oh! And then Spirit Diggers, Spirit Miners, etc... pay 10c/month per 10 skill level they have, want high QL logs? Hire Spirit Woodcutter which runs around felling all the trees and only for cost of 90c a month and you have endless supply of 90ql logs, or flatten that area? Just pay 10c a month for low skill slow digger, but while youre sleeping, that digger flattens and flattens... or surfacemine, hire Spirit Miner! Add changes to kill all incites to keep circulation flowing. Drain the players empty and make Codeclub Rich!

[yarnevk 257]

How  about if you place one of these spirit templars that deeds upkeep go to this new type of traders fund?

 

I think this is a good way to go because you cannot make a parallel system with the exact same benefit yet relaxed spacing rules work, though you need to be sure to balance the price, I think monthly only is the way to go.   Now the only complaint from regular traders is your spirit trader has removed your deed from the general pool, but the spirit trader does not count in distribution so the net trader/deeder ratio never changed so they should not care.  Unless of course everyone buys a Spirit Trader and there is no deed upkeep for old traders to get,  oh well too bad.

 

But take your idea further and tie only your own deed upkeep to your spirit trader tills to be able to make change and people to sell things, too much of that you have to pay into your upkeep.  More people buying you have extra upkeep.   Basically you are recirculating your own upkeep directly to benefit your own village and yourself.  It means you can never have a funded village unless you are a successful buy/sell trader to the public/village.  

 

Now there is really no reason to lock it up anymore because why drain it just to put the funds back into the upkeep till?  Without the server pool upkeep you are unlikely to ever make your premiums and is it worth all that draining effort just to get some silvers to pay for shovelers?   Instead of doing that just add bulk FSB/BSB sales to this spirit trader (basically designating selected FSB/BSB on your deed as for sale!)

Edited May 17, 2013 by yarnevk

[yarnevk 257]

Which would then mean no distance limits other than deed size defined limits, and every settlement can have trader regardless how close 

 

How about being able to hire different tier traders as one of such suggested in other thread; Spirit Shopkeeper.....

 

 

 

You are getting off track here (though I liked Jarosz Spirit Inn/Barkeep idea), getting into PC tasks like Spirit Digger never flies, do you really want to derail an idea of Spirit Traders with much more controversial discussion, you best delete that last paragraph and repost it as its own thread if you want the Spirit Trader discussion to be continue to be productive.  Post like that make people think your intention was to troll all along.

 

You are missing the point of the distance rule being larger than most deeds is that it guarantees every deed cannot have one, because current payouts of distributing after 50% tax drain from all deeds to all traders means that the system does not work if there are more traders than deeds, or even one trader per deed.  

 

The current spacing rules and the high initial price means that traders will always be fewer than deeders making it worthwhile to invest because even on the oldest PVE server (which is an indication of the stable 'end-game'), the monthly payout is 10s for the average trader so within a year you payoff the trader and make 100% profit.  (Though that is higher than the designed intent of one year breakevens)

 

If you remove the spacing rules and make it more affordable, then trader/deeder ratio becomes closer to 1, with a 50% tax drain that means the average old trader gets half the average upkeep, which at worst would be 50c and it takes 100 months to break even for the old trader.  Yes I am aware there is a minimum payment, but that cannot apply unless Rolf prints coin, and he does not do that because only coin shop buyers print coin.  Sure the system will balance itself out with spirit traders being told to go back inside the token, but you cannot cancel a old trader that is bought and paid for and those are the ones that lose as soon as spirit traders are added, so why intentionally expand a system for more traders that you know will only result in fewer traders in order to work?

 

Dump the old traders, and remove the initial price of the spirit trader and make it a pure monthly contract you either charge less than average deed upkeep (for more traders) and average trader earns average deed upkeep, or you charge more (for  fewer traders) and return the contract price and average trader profits average deed upkeep each month.   As long as you set the price right traders will return reasonable profits, which increases with server age as deeds become bigger with more upkeeps.  (Unless Rolf does something foolish like raise price of game 60%....)

 

Or go with the previously posted idea that the Spirit Trader is tied to your deed upkeep only, because then it is an independent system and if you have a huge enough deed with lots of upkeep that can afford to fill multiple Spirit Traders tills have at it because it has no impact to the servers trader/deeder payouts, it is now only about making sure they have enough coin in the till for trades.   You can also then have a locked up regular Trader that you drain for server upkeep because it does not matter to your Spirit Traders.

Edited May 17, 2013 by yarnevk

[Raybarg 437]

You are getting off track here (though I liked Jarosz Spirit Inn/Barkeep idea), getting into PC tasks like Spirit Digger never flies, do you really want to derail an idea of Spirit Traders with much more controversial discussion, you best delete that last paragraph and repost it as its own thread if you want the Spirit Trader discussion to be continue to be productive.  Post like that make people think your intention was to troll all along.

 

Being the weirdo I am, I just added a block of text as to humor myself, not to actually suggest anything mentioned there, otherwise I would actually have started new thread.

 

Edit:

 

I never really expected anyone take a block of text seriously which ends like "Drain the players empty and make Codeclub Rich!"

Edited May 17, 2013 by Raybarg

[Hussars 511]

[...]  Yes I am aware there is a minimum payment, but that cannot apply unless Rolf prints coin, and he does not do that because only coin shop buyers print coin.  [...]

 

Priests->Prayer coin/items are supposed to not be from the kingdom/upkeep pool, so the mechanic is already in-place for "trickle in" coin.

[Jarosz 189]

Priests->Prayer coin/items are supposed to not be from the kingdom/upkeep pool, so the mechanic is already in-place for "trickle in" coin.

 

Would be able to tell if all players "name" their coins.  If priest coins pop up with no naming, then it is a new item.

 

Yarnevk,

 

This is a lease model.  You "use" it as long as you maintain a monthly payment. (That is what a lease is.  You lease an apartment monthly for example.  You lease most cell phones, unless you buy your own (the reason cell phone bills are so high is that they roll the cost of the $800 phone into the 2 year plan, and why there is an early cancellation fee).

 

If you fail to pay the lease on your 3 year car plan, they come and take it back.  You also have to pay a larger down payment as collateral on a leased vehicle (for the most part).

 

To say its a bad analogy is short sighted.  I can start playing wurm assuming I will play for several years.  Doesn't mean I will get over the learning curve in the first 2 months.  If I am risk minded, I don't blow 1 year on premium and another 80 euro on a trader deed (just to "save a few euro in the the next year") before I decide otherwise.  I might however, get 2 months premium and spend 40 euro in my 2nd month of premium when I feel more comfortable with the game mechanics.  Ultimately lowering my cost of living for my next 3-9 months.  If I can offset deed upkeep with the Spirit Trader, I could very well save up for a Trader, or spend my Euro for a trader if I decide to expand my land control.

 

You buy a house when you feel the time is right to settle down and invest in your future.  You rent/lease when your future is uncertain.

 

As for the "2 separate Pots" thing... why?  Why not base the % on the % of Traders vs Spirit Traders.  This way, money isn't lost in an unobtainable pool when everyone abandons 1 or the other. (yes, it could happen, especially if the code gets broken at some point)  If there are 99 Traditional Traders, and you are the sole Spirit Trader owner (1) than you'd only get 1% of the upkeep pool.

Assuming there are currently over 500 Traditional Traders on a server, it would take 5 to get 1%.  If you make it 2 separate pools, then the Tradition Trader owners will also start investing in the other pool as well.  Which is something you might not have thought of.  And they will over power it.  By combining the 2 into 1 and basing the % off the numbers... Its more balanced.  At some point, Spirit Traders could compose the majority and make Traditional Traders pay out less. (this would happen in the beginning of a server and possibly if Uniques are respawned on any servers)

[Hussars 511]

With the "one or the other" on a given deed, would limit the ability of people stacking trader types.

 

Requiring a minimum deed size for it be used, reduces the Trader Deeds spamming.

 

Personally, if these were added, they should get a percentage of the pool based on the time to match the total cost for the traditional trader.  So using completely random numbers (it is assumed based deed costs/premium status are identical and these would be the same without a trader so not calculated in.):

 

With an assumed constant payout potential of 10s/month (keeping it flat for ease of use in this example)

 

Traditional Traders:

• Outset/Cost:  50s/0s upkeep
  
• Payout:  100% "Share" (10s/month)
  
• 
  

  ROI: 5 Months

  
  
  

 

 

Spirit Traders:

 

• Outset/Cost:  25s/2s upkeep (Roughly 12 months to equate)
  
• Payout:  70% "Share" (7s/month)
  
• 
  

  ROI: 12 Months

  
  
  

Add a mechanic, like the deed's "Knowledge" bonus, which after the Spirit Trader has been in use and maintained long enough to equate to the traditional trader cost, it drops the upkeep amount, in effect becoming 90% of the Traditional Trader share.  The difference in payout could be seen as a favored return for people who paid more upfront.

 

As you adjust the numbers for the spirit trader, maybe make it cheaper, but longer to pay off, you have a more defined and more transparent system, that actually does make it easier for more people to get in on any trader system/benefits.  As a side benefit, those who drop out before the break-even point, only boosted the system and continue to have an increased upkeep fee which (as mentioned by others) clears land faster.

 

I don't address numbers of traders per account, because in any system with limits like this, users will run multiple accounts/emails/etc... as needed to bypass those limits.  So this ties a hard limit directly to the deeds held, which has been shown to help Rolf both directly and indirectly (for those who like to use this detail in their points)

[Jarosz 189]

With the "one or the other" on a given deed, would limit the ability of people stacking trader types.

 

Requiring a minimum deed size for it be used, reduces the Trader Deeds spamming.

 

Personally, if these were added, they should get a percentage of the pool based on the time to match the total cost for the traditional trader.  So using completely random numbers (it is assumed based deed costs/premium status are identical and these would be the same without a trader so not calculated in.):

 

With an assumed constant payout potential of 10s/month (keeping it flat for ease of use in this example)

 

Traditional Traders:

• Outset/Cost:  50s/0s upkeep

Payout:  100% "Share" (10s/month)

ROI: 5 Months

 

 

Spirit Traders:

 

• Outset/Cost:  25s/2s upkeep (Roughly 12 months to equate)

Payout:  70% "Share" (7s/month)

ROI: 12 Months

Add a mechanic, like the deed's "Knowledge" bonus, which after the Spirit Trader has been in use and maintained long enough to equate to the traditional trader cost, it drops the upkeep amount, in effect becoming 90% of the Traditional Trader share.  The difference in payout could be seen as a favored return for people who paid more upfront.

 

As you adjust the numbers for the spirit trader, maybe make it cheaper, but longer to pay off, you have a more defined and more transparent system, that actually does make it easier for more people to get in on any trader system/benefits.  As a side benefit, those who drop out before the break-even point, only boosted the system and continue to have an increased upkeep fee which (as mentioned by others) clears land faster.

 

I don't address numbers of traders per account, because in any system with limits like this, users will run multiple accounts/emails/etc... as needed to bypass those limits.  So this ties a hard limit directly to the deeds held, which has been shown to help Rolf both directly and indirectly (for those who like to use this detail in their points)

 

 

as months accrue and you "maintain" your Trader, would the upkeep also decrease in line with the payout increase?  IE the maintenance would go from 2s a month to 1s a month after 1 year?

[Hussars 511]

If that was the system detail desired, sure, what I outlined was just to show a base concept, so details would be up to the CodeClub back-end business folks to hash-out to meet their business needs/designs.

 

But basically, the idea is that you start with a lower buy-in, for a lower return, and "earn" up into higher pay-outs by maintaining your deed and trader.  The lower the buy-in, the more people can get involved, but the longer it takes to promote up, and the final level would eventually be slightly behind those that bought in with all fees upfront.  This would also only impact the "draining" mechanic, all other Trader items/costs would remain the same.

 

Could take this a step further and "rank" the trader, so as they "rank up", more items become available, but that might be too much of an impact on the system as it exists now.  Keeping those calculation behind the scenes makes it more user friendly.

[Jarosz 189]

If that was the system detail desired, sure, what I outlined was just to show a base concept, so details would be up to the CodeClub back-end business folks to hash-out to meet their business needs/designs.

 

But basically, the idea is that you start with a lower buy-in, for a lower return, and "earn" up into higher pay-outs by maintaining your deed and trader.  The lower the buy-in, the more people can get involved, but the longer it takes to promote up, and the final level would eventually be slightly behind those that bought in with all fees upfront.  This would also only impact the "draining" mechanic, all other Trader items/costs would remain the same.

 

Could take this a step further and "rank" the trader, so as they "rank up", more items become available, but that might be too much of an impact on the system as it exists now.  Keeping those calculation behind the scenes makes it more user friendly.

 

I think time in vs return is the only ranking needed.  The other "item based" rank could limit them too unfairly.  The items exist as silver drains, not benefits.

[yarnevk 257]

As you adjust the numbers for the spirit trader, maybe make it cheaper, but longer to pay off, you have a more defined and more transparent system, that actually does make it easier for more people to get in on any trader system/benefits.  

 

Which is still the problem with your dynamic payout to balance the lease vs. buy costs out, so that it better equalize the actual server payouts at that time (Release pays 30-50s, Indy pays 10-15s, etc.). That only solves the break-even advantage of one vs. the other.

 

You are now making it easier to buy into a trader with a Spirit Trader, which means the overall pool dilutes from the increase number of traders, so it does not matter that the Old Trader gets 100% of their share while the Spirit Trader gets 70% share, because 100% of what is now worth 50% the former payouts is still a drop to 50%.  You would have to completely unbalance it as the Old trader gets 200% of their share to compensate, and the system now breaks.  

 

That is the point of the initial high price and max distance is to keep the number of traders limited, because either way it is work for silver or come up with the cash to get one and find the space for the trader.  It matters not that it will eventually pay your premiums or upkeep if you cannot afford it or find space in the first place, so you do without it and just pay your premiums or upkeep as you go.

 

If instead you make it so it is like an extra premium or upkeep payment (specific price irrelevant, the point is pay as you go) and I can suspend at any time and put it on my deed regardless of the neighbors having one, you are making it possible for anyone to work/pay for it as they go on any deed, which can only be more traders, which can only mean less payouts for all even those who paid the higher initial price expecting a certain payout curve over the life of the server.  That is why there cannot be two different ways to buy-in to the system because the payout mechanism has to be optimized to balance with how players bought in, thus it has to be a different system because easier buy-in is just a mechanism for dilution.

 

Tying SpiritTraders to only your own deed upkeep is a good way to get around the issue of dilution.  It is lower priced because it has not access to the server upkeep pool with much more profit potential but higher upfront but it is not free because you still get access to your own upkeeps and the kingdom and trade taxes.

Edited May 17, 2013 by yarnevk

[Jarosz 189]

Which is still the problem with your dynamic payout to balance the lease vs. buy costs out, so that it better equalize the actual server payouts at that time (Release pays 30-50s, Indy pays 10-15s, etc.). That only solves the break-even advantage of one vs. the other.

 

You are now making it easier to buy into a trader with a Spirit Trader, which means the overall pool dilutes from the increase number of traders, so it does not matter that the Old Trader gets 100% of their share while the Spirit Trader gets 70% share, because 100% of what is now worth 50% the former payouts is still a drop to 50%.  You would have to completely unbalance it as the Old trader gets 200% of their share to compensate, and the system now breaks.  

 

That is the point of the initial high price and max distance is to keep the number of traders limited, because either way it is work for silver or come up with the cash to get one and find the space for the trader.  It matters not that it will eventually pay your premiums or upkeep if you cannot afford it or find space in the first place, so you do without it and just pay your premiums or upkeep as you go.

 

If instead you make it so it is like an extra premium or upkeep payment (specific price irrelevant, the point is pay as you go) and I can suspend at any time and put it on my deed regardless of the neighbors having one, you are making it possible for anyone to work/pay for it as they go on any deed, which can only be more traders, which can only mean less payouts for all even those who paid the higher initial price expecting a certain payout curve over the life of the server.  That is why there cannot be two different ways to buy-in to the system because the payout mechanism has to be optimized to balance with how players bought in, thus it has to be a different system because easier buy-in is just a mechanism for dilution.

 

Tying SpiritTraders to only your own deed upkeep is a good way to get around the issue of dilution.  It is lower priced because it has not access to the server upkeep pool with much more profit potential but higher upfront but it is not free because you still get access to your own upkeeps and the kingdom and trade taxes.

 

 

No trader was purchased with 50 euro or 80 euro directly.  they were purchased with in game silver.  Which has a fluctuating worth based on players value for it.

 

It breaks nothing.  Should original traders pay less because new traders cost the equivalent of 80 euro if a player buys silver from Rolf and pays for it that way as opposed to earning it in game and paying for it?  "I paid MORE I deserve MORE!!!"

 

Nope.

[Hussars 511]

No matter what the pool size or what it pays out, Traders have the ability to pull up to 100% of their share of that pool.  Dilution is going to happen in any system based on participation levels.  Even holding X% back as a reserve, when it does payout, if there are more people to pay, it means less per share.  Having 2 pools does not fix this, it just shifts the numbers around, like a shell game scam, which only some people actually get anything.

 

So saying a future payment will be less because more people an get a portion is like saying, barring any world ending situation the sun will "rise" tomorrow.  Also know as "common sense".

 

My understanding is that vocal portion of the player base feels traders are unbalanced in some manner, and it appears that the spirit trader was a proposal to allow more people access to the trader system in a different means, while not invalidating the current system.  This does not address the disproportional payouts for select items to traders at various ql's, that is its own issue, this is just a new way to get into the hook itself.

 

So I expanded on how I think it could work with both traders in place, that makes BOTH viable without destroying either system, while allowing more people access to the system who may not have the funds or time for any reason to buy in at the higher price point.

 

I did so with the idea that the system would feed back into the player base by not only providing coin, but ensuring more people stay in the game for longer periods of time.

 

::Edit insert::

So wait a sec... 

 

 

 

 

 

[...]

 

Tying SpiritTraders to only your own deed upkeep is a good way to get around the issue of dilution.  It is lower priced because it has not access to the server upkeep pool with much more profit potential but higher upfront but it is not free because you still get access to your own upkeeps and the kingdom and trade taxes.

 

So in your system design, you want to remove your deed from the pool, but allow your trader to skim from the pool?

Edited May 17, 2013 by Hussars

[yarnevk 257]

 

So in your system design, you want to remove your deed from the pool, but allow your trader to skim from the pool?

 

Finally someone that takes a second look at what I actually proposed here, your prior comments was on what Protunia proposed.  But not quite got what I am getting at after thinking it thru somemore.

 

You cannot deny that there would be an explosion of traders with lower buy-in easier placed Spirit Traders for major discontinuous dilution which is a major disruption of the past historical curves that anyone buying an Old Trader expected to have when they bought it.  They know there will be dilution in a few years when server density stabilizes with new/disband deeds reaching a balance point.  They planned for that.   They even know because of paid ahead upkeep that even a 60% price hike will not be a major discontinuity in that curve because players cannot get upkeep refunds and any rage quitters are counterbalanced by the one year prepaid old price.   So those are minor bumps in the road that they expect.    Adding 1000 more traders simply because it was easier to get now is going to have every Old Trader  yell at Rolf in IRC to ensure it never happens without major major major compensations.   I have no delusions that even my own monthly contract proposal that replaces the old trader would require major compensations for them to switch, but the trader system and the deed systems have changed before and the game survived for the better, but people are still going to yell to stop change from happening.

 

But I do see the opportunity where the general idea of a monthly contract can co-exist with other traders without diluting them or replacing them.   And that is if you modify Protunias variation of the OP idea that the Spirit Trader have their own server upkeep pool: instead in my version it is only your own upkeep in your token, then in fact the two systems can coexist.   Because now whatever I have in my token is in my traders change drawer.   If I want to get some of my upkeep because I do not really need a year ofprepaid upkeep, then if I or my villagers drain it thru my Spirit Trader.  If others buy things I have more prepaid upkeep.  Others will sell actual tradeable goods (not 1s clothe squares) because there is actually change in this trader, and the function of offline trading is really needed in a community, especially noobs with a shiny silver to spend on a thing they need or want after digging dirt all week, especially your village smith who does not giveaway stuff but is never online for you to buy from him.   The point of using a trader for this rather than a merchant is traders take barter.

 

The deed permissions for Spirit Trader are used to keep other drainers that are not desired out of clearing out my prepayment entirely, but they are not going to be there draining anyways because getting only my upkeep is simply not worth that effort, and if one of my villagers is constantly draining forcing to put more silver into upkeep I give him a shovel and say start digging and I will pay you silver, otherwise knock it off or you will get evicted.

 

Since I need to have a deed with prepaid upkeep to have a Spirit Trader in the first place, it has no impact on Old Traders.   The Spirit Traders change drawer is my prepaid upkeep, not the monthly upkeep.   I have not added an Old Trader to the system so I have not diluted their system with an extra trader.  I still have a deed that produces monthly upkeep that goes into the Old Trader pool. And I can still have an Old Trader myself if I want access to the servers upkeep pool.

Edited May 17, 2013 by yarnevk

[Jarosz 189]

 

 

So in your system design, you want to remove your deed from the pool, but allow your trader to skim from the pool?

 

Finally someone that takes a second look at what I actually proposed here, your prior comments was on what Protunia proposed.  But not quite got what I am getting at after thinking it thru somemore.

 

You cannot deny that there would be an explosion of traders with lower buy-in easier placed Spirit Traders for major discontinuous dilution which is a major disruption of the past historical curves that anyone buying an Old Trader expected to have when they bought it.  They know there will be dilution in a few years when server density stabilizes with new/disband deeds reaching a balance point.  They planned for that.   They even know because of paid ahead upkeep that even a 60% price hike will not be a major discontinuity in that curve because players cannot get upkeep refunds and any rage quitters are counterbalanced by the one year prepaid old price.   So those are minor bumps in the road that they expect.    Adding 1000 more traders simply because it was easier to get now is going to have every Old Trader  yell at Rolf in IRC to ensure it never happens without major major major compensations.   I have no delusions that even my own monthly contract proposal that replaces the old trader would require major compensations for them to switch, but the trader system and the deed systems have changed before and the game survived for the better, but people are still going to yell to stop change from happening.

 

But I do see the opportunity where the general idea of a monthly contract can co-exist with other traders without diluting them or replacing them.   And that is if you modify Protunias variation of the OP idea that the Spirit Trader have their own server upkeep pool: instead in my version it is only your own upkeep in your token, then in fact the two systems can coexist.   Because now whatever I have in my token is in my traders change drawer.   If I want to get some of my upkeep because I do not really need a year ofprepaid upkeep, then if I or my villagers drain it thru my Spirit Trader.  If others buy things I have more prepaid upkeep.  Others will sell actual tradeable goods (not 1s clothe squares) because there is actually change in this trader, and the function of offline trading is really needed in a community, especially noobs with a shiny silver to spend on a thing they need or want after digging dirt all week, especially your village smith who does not giveaway stuff but is never online for you to buy from him.   The point of using a trader for this rather than a merchant is traders take barter.

 

The deed permissions for Spirit Trader are used to keep other drainers that are not desired out of clearing out my prepayment entirely, but they are not going to be there draining anyways because getting only my upkeep is simply not worth that effort, and if one of my villagers is constantly draining forcing to put more silver into upkeep I give him a shovel and say start digging and I will pay you silver, otherwise knock it off or you will get evicted.

 

Since I need to have a deed with prepaid upkeep to have a Spirit Trader in the first place, it has no impact on Old Traders.   The Spirit Traders change drawer is my prepaid upkeep, not the monthly upkeep.   I have not added an Old Trader to the system so I have not diluted their system with an extra trader.  I still have a deed that produces monthly upkeep that goes into the Old Trader pool. And I can still have an Old Trader myself if I want access to the servers upkeep pool.

 

 

 

Back to negative investment for a service?

 

I pay 2s (or whatever) a month for the ability to get my own 1 silver back (or whatever).  Oh wait, then there is 50% tax.  So only .5s (or whatever)

 

2s for .5 silver.  sounds like a great idea! (not)

[Hussars 511]

While I can understand your point/intent Yarnevk, what you are outlining (at least in appearance) is to just do away with traders, and don't pay in advance for upkeep.  Because removing a deed with this style trader, removes them from the general pool and (in your updated idea) ties them to your own deed upkeep pool.  So the general traders now how a smaller pool for each deed using this new trader, while you have access to a private upkeep bank.

 

Why not just save your coin at the token, and only pay for upkeep as you need to on a monthly or semi monthly basis?  Or place coins in a chest in a house that trusted friends have access to, if it is to make it easier to transfer funds to them even when you're offline?

[yarnevk 257]

Jarosz

 

Again enough of your spreadsheet comments. Because the pricing is not part of my idea nor the OPs idea, rather it is to work together to find a workable idea and then worry about how to suggest to Rolf to price it once the details of the idea are sorted out and let him decide what the price is.

 

But  yes I would pay a small fee to dip into all of my own upkeep as long as it is a fraction and promotes village/alliance trade to put even more into my upkeep.   But I am not at all saying what that fee is because the fee is not at all important to the idea especially when you are going to use undefined pricing on an undertermined idea to say it does not work, rather than work on defining the idea and pariticpating in what pricing does work.

 

I have 8 months  (40s) in one deed that I would like to otherwise spend in another way, and if my trader is stupid enough to pay me 1s for cloth squares to get at some of it that is great, and I would not mind buying a neighbors lantern when they are offline knowing it went to their upkeep.  But I am pretty sure Rolf is not simply going to let people at their own prepaid upkeeps without charging a service fee for it

Edited May 17, 2013 by yarnevk

[Kagrenac 812]

So you want a trader that drains your token for its funds, instead of using recycled upkeep

[yarnevk 257]

While I can understand your point/intent Yarnevk, what you are outlining (at least in appearance) is to just do away with traders, and don't pay in advance for upkeep. 

 

Nope you missed the point.  Old Traders still get at my monthly upkeep distribution.   My Spirit Trader has nothing to do with that.  Yes I said early it did remove from the pool ,but I am revising that because I realized it does not if I tap only my prepaid rather than the monthly upkeep.

 

My deed is still in the Old Traders pool, my monthly upkeep is still being paid to them, and my Spirt Trader does not add to the trader count.

 

I am not having my monthly upkeep deposited into my Spirit Trader at all, I am exposing my prepaid upkeep to my Spirit Traders till.   Of course there needs to be a feature that there is always minimum one months payment that cannot be taken out so use of Spirit Trader does not accidently decay then disband my deed, and I have a pay ahead buffer anyways so I do not have to worry about that every month.

 

But if i I have six months upkeep in the pool due to donations or pay aheads from silver jobs or getting a bonus award at work, why cannot I use five months of it for Spirit Trader change drawer?.  Sure if nobody buys anything I have to put next months upkeep into my token, and I may be spending cash to fund the change drawer, but so what if it promotes offline villager/alliance trade amongst those I permit to use it?  A lot of people have a year of upkeep because they stocked up on old pricing, and that is coin doing absolutely nothing, just as bad as if it was hoarded in the bank.

 

The point is that coin is sitting there doing nothing because the prepaid upkeep is not going to the Old Traders for months yet.   They still get there share every month as long as I do not disband, which is the only way I would remove from their pool.  Spirit Trader with my revision does not dilute them in anyway.  Only me buying an Old Trader or disbanding does that.

Edited May 17, 2013 by yarnevk