A Realization Its Time To Rework Traders To Benefit All Players.

[Jarosz 189]

I don't need to prove your numbers are wrong. Just pointed out that your numbers are based on your OPNION is good enough. Yea, Wurm still exists as a very small game by mmo standards, with more volunteer developers then payed staff, no payed cm/gm/ or other community related moderators, and recently had to increase prices to pay the bills.

You realize the reason Rolf has such a high volunteer staff is because the people who play it, love it?

Your numbers are unproven (if you even gave any numbers at all... Never saw them, only ideological assumption of prosperity which is directly inverse to the current profit making model.)

[unowho 6]

By all means, prove my numbers wrong.  I'm not doing the work to prove it works, when it has proven to work.  Wurm still exists.  Thats all the proof that over 64% of the people voting in this thread need.  There's your survey.

 

You guys are trying to convince the working class (the majority of wurm players) that the rich getting richer is good for Wurm.  That the Rich having the only access to the circulation of in game wealth (that has no vaule other than what is assigned by the players themselves) is good for THEM.

 

Good luck getting answers.

 

If you think changing it to a PURELY PAY  TO WIN system, that somehow it was the Traders that kill off wurm, please... PLEASE... Show me how Rolf will make profit by cutting of F2P.

 

People keep pointing to the poll number but...  Aren't the trader drainers more likely to fund multiple accounts with which they can come here and vote with?

[Enola 53]

 

People keep pointing to the poll number but...  Aren't the trader drainers more likely to fund multiple accounts with which they can come here and vote with?

 

 

You are aware that there's a difference between Wurm accounts and forum accounts?

[unowho 6]

 

People keep pointing to the poll number but...  Aren't the trader drainers more likely to fund multiple accounts with which they can come here and vote with?

 

 

 

You are aware that there's a difference between Wurm accounts and forum accounts?

Yes

[Enola 53]

Then your statement doesn't make any sense at all.

[unowho 6]

Doesn't a forum account need to be tied to an email account that is attached to a premium member?  If I'm incorrect and your saying anyone is free to make as many forum accounts as they wish, let me know and I'll adjust the poll myself.

[Enola 53]

Anyone can make as many forum accounts as they wish.

 

The only part of the forum where owning a fitting account is mandatory is the epic forums.

[unowho 6]

cool. thnx

[Seancarl 109]

Doesn't a forum account need to be tied to an email account that is attached to a premium member?  If I'm incorrect and your saying anyone is free to make as many forum accounts as they wish, let me know and I'll adjust the poll myself.

 

Lol, you know by making that statement you've simply rendered the poll even more useless.  Any movement in the direction of your personal interest will be attributed to this statement and how crazy... er, how passionate you are.  

[Enola 53]

That's what he wants to achieve. By questioning the credibility of the poll by publicly making his intentions clear to forge it he wants to render it absolutely unusable. He doesn't even need to take any action to now be able to just say "see, people are doing mass account answers". All that because he doesn't like the result.

 

Personally, I only trust statistics I forged myself.

 

Poll withstating, Rolf will do anyways as he pleases. Most likely in a manner that noone likes. At least, that would be really fun.

[Raybarg 442]

Oo yea, wurm is really fun game that way, never know what you gonna think about the change thats around the corner.

[Jarosz 189]

no what is FAIL is a system of today where Rolf does not get paid at ALL if you can use a traders silver to buy another trader until you have an empire that returns gold every month.    What you say can be done with anything that returns a profit margin, all you are doing is skimming the margin to reinvest to skim some more.  You already said you already ran a similar scheme by working the system for exchange rates of silver, euro the dollar and gold to profit, with Rolfs approval so why is your scheme here FAIL when that scheme was not? 

 

Of course I do not propose that Rolf do 100% profit for everyone nor do I see the average deed is 10s nor do I see gold going for 128e (some trying to get 90e even though gold has been scarce for weeks).   Suppose however that Rolf says 100% profit is OK, but the average deed upkeep is 1s because everyone dowsized and fired their guards, so he sets the price at 1.59e for a trader that pays 1s+1s which you get back and sell 2s for 1.61e, are you really going to move tens of thousands of euro to exploit that now very thin profit margin?   Exact same math you just did but Rolf is in charge of dynamic pricing.  Hooray for Rolf if he profits off that cycle because the more cash you cycle thru the system, the more cash he makes for CodeAB because all he has to do in this profit shaving enterprise is cash the PayPal checks and pay his taxes.   He just as well forgo the trader and sell you discount subscriptions which you resell at a lesser discount because he still makes more income with you working as his salesman rather than you actually playing his game.

 

And this is exactly why I said do not spreadsheet analysis the idea and call it fail, because it is up to Rolf to set the pricing so that anyone wanting to exploit the margins by moving hundreds  thousands (or even tens of thousands) of euro each month through cannot unless he is fine with making more cash everytime you go thru his shop (which he must be since he allows gold sales to profit in the first place so people can buy shop premium rather than pay silver in game)  All Rolf needs to do is set the trader pricing and the average trader profit such that if you a month later try to cash out in gold it is counter balanced by discount gold pricing so you break even and have no net profit at all, or worse of all simply say one trader per player.   It does not mean traders cannot cash out in gold, it just means they have to be good at what they do, and that is no different than a superior blacksmith cashing out in gold.  On average that does not happen, it only happens on the exception, which means Rolf wins with more cash payments, and the economy wins with upkeep being distributed.  

 

You keep ignoring what I say about EULA and if he sees you trying to exploit a system for your personal profit without CodeAB getting a cut or an improved silver economy, then he can, will, and has changed the system.  By your own admission Rolf changes actually put you out of biz when he saw what you was doing and decided to put premium in for game silver, and no doubt if you came back to the game you would use one of your many threads on how to skim yet again.  Up to Rolf if wants to let you profit or not.    

 

Now I have nothing against you skimming for I did much the same IRL with my brother.  Worked until the rules of the credit and housing industry changed and we both skipped into the bailout systems .  So sometimes skimming works for all parties involved, sometimes it does not.  It obviously works to keep Wall St in biz, well most of the time anyways.

 

Whatever Rolf sets his "pricing" at doesn't change the fact that you are removing Trader access as a F2P option.  Do you plan to make it a Premium Only interaction as well? Or do you like the fact that they become your tax collectors for all the begging F2P players looking to scratch enough coin together for premium (and never be self sustainable)?  If Rolf changes the exchange rates, you are not thinking of the ripple effects that can happen with those who Horde silver.  If 1 month it becomes easier to get Silver in game than purchase it, the stock of silver will plummet with players buying up premium in game.  The other way around and no one will spend it choking out the Crafters.  You don't think this meddling effects players and that Rolf can do as he pleases... You apparently are very short sighted.  Sorry, but you need to take into account multiple variables as to why people love this game... it goes beyond your moral economic ideals of "who pays should play and no one else"

 

There are 2 very big and blatant differences between my "Premium Sales" and your "Pay to Win Traders."

 

1: My service didn't hinder F2P becoming premium.  In fact it did just the opposite.  I should also inform you, that at any time I should want to rejoin the game I can still sell premium for 14-18 silver and cut a profit that will grow a pool of money that can continually give more people premium for cheaper.  The effects however, whether you want to believe it or not, will cause the Worth of in game silver to go back to 70-80%.  What you don't get, is that I didn't pocket the money.  at any given time I didn't have more than a few hundred Euro, or more than 10 gold in my "banks" the money cycled back and forth between both my paypal and my in game "premium sales men's" Banks. (like I mentioned many times, it is not a get rich quick scheme, if you sell more than 4-5 gold in a matter of 2-3 weeks the value starts to drop again, because people found deeds and upkeep payout goes up).  I was self sustaining Premium Salesmen in order to perpetuate premium account growth (I had several accounts at 5 euro a month to keep the business going).  I quit a few months before Rolf even hinted at adding the 10s a month option.  I was in college at the time and writing about 3 12 page papers a week... once I broke away from the game I haven't been back full bore since.  I was against the idea originally because of the possible amount of silver that would sink out of the Economy... Premium Tokens from the shop was always a better alternative, but it depends on players purchasing it. Since then, my belief is that a mix of both is best for the game.  1 option to insure players can get it in game in case they are ostracized by players, and another as an arguably cheaper "reward" for benefiting those in the society of players.  The "cheaper" option motivates people to work more with others.

 

2.  Your Idea locks away traders permanently from F2P and those who do not have the extra income to support premium AND reoccurring RLM access to upkeep circulation.  Not everyone can even afford to pay for premium AND 5 silver a month.  A large potion of Legitimate Trader owners now wouldn't even be able to afford it.  Even if a F2P player can gather coin by work, if they do not have access to Paypal because of the region they live in, there is no way they will ever be able to get a Trader (That is the biggest reason I am against it... My Premium Sale helped a LOT of these kinds of players, yours would lock them out of the game and make them 2nd class Wurm citizens)

 

You think my opinion against your idea is based on the profit margins people will gain from it... you couldn't be more wrong.  My idea was never about profit.  I use profit as a way to entice others to do what I did to benefit wurm.  The only person who profited from my work, when I did it, was Rolf and players.  There is NOTHING benevolent about your suggested mechanic.  The Reason I called your idea FAIL, is because it goes against everything you are claiming it would solve.  It would not stop people selling silver for profit and undercutting Rolf.  It would not stop Elitism, if any thing it would create MORE of it.  Only those who could afford 192 euro on top of their current 96 Euro could get it.  You are suggesting a markup of 2x premium for access.  But you are right... why should I be against it... the numbers could be anything right?  Yep, wouldn't cause any bit of instability that 1 month it could be 1.6 euro the next it could be 160 euro.  That one month they pay out 75% of upkeep and the next only 25%.

 

And this doesn't have any effect on F2P or people who can't afford to pay more than 8 euro a month.  Get real.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Jarosz

[yarnevk 257]

We already have a free to play class, the game IS pay to play IF you want to remove restrictions of free to play, IF you do not want to join a village that can give you things you cannot make or do what you cannot do.  Your argument is invalid if you are arguing that f2p is entitled to p2p features, for the design of the very game is that they are not.  CodeAB is a for profit enterprise and not the charity hobby you are trying to make it seem, their business goal is to convert a percentage of free players into paying players by holding back game features.  That has nothing to do with morality and piracy, it has to do with the paying developers which is the reason they had to raise rates beyond just taxes.

 

Traders were never designed for players to play for free, they were designed to keep players paying cash into the game for a year, an important consideration for what was an alpha game that could induce rage quits at any time, in return after that they was lucky to get their deed upkeeps paid for.  It has not been that type of feature in years, and more recently with new servers and more open trade communication has it become possible to be an entirely  free to play mechanism that entitles you to premium features in excess of what the paying player could ever pay for.

 

If a player cannot afford a 5s deed, then he needs to downsize to the 1s deed, or get the free shack at the community village in return for working, or go live for free in in a shack in the woods.   Nobody is entitled to have a 5s deed.  

 

You seem to have the notion that f2p conversion only happen if they get a handout or a discount because they cannot afford it otherwise, but there are plenty of f2p to p2p conversions I have personally done with doing nothing more than helping players learn the game with never any handouts. The issue at hand is that it is entirely possible to use traders to play a free premium game, and Rolf has to control that so it is not possible because he already has a mechanism for playing a free game. The only way he can control that is if he gets reoccuring income from traders and gives them discount rather than free play, because if it is possible to play for free there are going to be those traders that damn well will do it even if they entirely have the means to pay for the game.

 

You are the one that thinks Rolf cannot do as he pleases,  He just did so on May 2nd and there was not a damn thing you could do about it because his EULA says he can and he did.   And again I ask you to stop with the economic analysis of the specific numbers of an idea because you always take it to the extremes and all you are showing is it would be dumb of Rolf to set the price at that point.  The point always has been Rolf should control the pricing of items because he is the one that runs the company.   He can increase tax rates and pay traders less to drain more silver from the economy to encourage more players to buy coin, or he can reduce tax rates and increase trader payments to encourage more silver to be in the economy in hope it results in more paying premiums.  To say that he can do that but not dynamically change the price of a trader to find a balance of cash income vs. silver economy is absurd.  

 

If Rolf wanted to make traders affordable and be a feature that everyone could have majorly discounted play he absolutely has the right to price that at 1e/mo and say the average trader can earn their premiums by deciding that the pool is coming from premiums rather than the upkeep pools.  That being a good idea or not is irrelevant to the fact that Rolf CAN do it. You are the one that seems to be confused that he cannot change traders or deed mechanisms or premium/silver costs, when the facts are he has already done so several times in the past and the game got over it with the rage quitters coming back or being replaced with new players.  

 

The ironic thing is that you do no even realize that with your arguments of supporting players with discount premiums and gold, that if monthly trader contracts happened you would hop right into the game hawking discount traders for the PayPal disabled and the 'non-elites'.  And that is fine because the issue is not that someone got a discount and Rolf got some pay, the issue is that someone can obtain the feature for free and Rolf never gets paid. I have no problems with qty discounts on time/silver/traders at all because then Rolf is in control of his lost income and can make sure the benefits returned to the game and ultimately into more paying customers is worth it.  I have even suggested he should be in the discount gold biz as he is already in the discount premium biz since the last pricing offer I got on the web site it was 12 mo for the price of 10, so I guess he saw how well the year for old price offer was.

Edited May 17, 2013 by yarnevk

[Jarosz 189]

We already have a free to play class, the game IS pay to play if you want to remove restrictions of pay to play, if you do not want to join a village that can give you things you cannot make or do what you cannot do.  Your argument is invalid if you are arguing that f2p is entitled to p2p features, for the design of the very game is that they are not.  CodeAB is a for profit enterprise and not the charity hobby you are trying to make it seem, their business goal is to convert a percentage of free players into paying players by holding back game features.  That has nothing to do with morality and piracy, it has to do with the paying developers which is the reason they had to raise rates beyond just taxes.

 

Traders were never designed for players to play for free, they where designed to keep players paying cash into the game for a year, an important consideration for what was an alpha game that could induce rage quits at any time, in return after that they was lucky to get their deed upkeeps paid for.  It has not been that type of feature in years, and more recently with new servers and more open trade communication has it become possible to be an entirely  free to play mechanism that entitles you to premium features in excess of what the paying player could ever pay for.

 

If a player cannot afford a 5s deed, then he needs to downsize to the 1s deed, or get the free shack at the community village in return for working, or go live for free in in a shack in the woods.   Nobody is entitled to have a 5s deed.  

 

You seem to have the notion that f2p conversion only happen if they get a handout or a discount because they cannot afford it otherwise, but there are plenty of f2p to p2p conversions I have personally done with doing nothing more than helping players learn the game with never any handouts. The issue at hand is that it is entirely possible to use traders to play a free premium game, and Rolf has to control that so it is not possible because he already has a mechanism for playing a free game. The only way he can control that is if he gets reoccuring income from traders and gives them discount rather than free play, because if it is possible to play for free there are going to be those traders that damn well will do it even if they entirely have the means to pay for the game.

 

You are the one that thinks Rolf cannot do as he pleases,  He just did so on May 2nd and there was not a damn thing you could do about it because his EULA says he can and he did.   And again I ask you to stop with the economic analysis of the specific numbers of an idea, .  The point always has been Rolf should control the pricing of items because he is the one that runs the company.   He can increase tax rates and pay traders less to drain more silver from the economy to encourage more players to buy coin, or he can reduce tax rates and increase trader payments to encourage more silver to be in the economy in hope it results in more paying premiums.

 

The ironic thing is that you do no even realize that with your arguments of supporting players with discount premiums and gold, that if monthly trader contracts happened you would hop right into the game hawking discount traders for the PayPal disabled and the 'non-elites'.  And that is perferctly fine because the issue is not that someone got a discount, the issue is that someone can obtain the feature for free.

 

 

Wrong.  If a F2P can get premium in game, he/she doesn't pay into the system.  If he/she can work hard enough (which benefits other PAYING players, the PAYING players is more likely to stick around) He can get a trader and play for free with all benefits.  The system is designed so that VERY FEW can get this high up.  For the simple fact that Silver MUST be purchased and it disappears.  Traders pay out slowly.  Rolf/Players pay out quickly.  If I have no desire to expand my land control, I have no reason to pay more into the system.  If I don't have access to paypal, chances are I can't sell silver to players.

 

Wurm is not a 100% for profit company.  It is not a 100% charity either.  Duality can exist, and it coexists in Wurm quite well.  It is not an exploit that players can buy premium in game with silver.  It is not an exploit that traders circulate silver and that F2P can buy them in game.  IT WAS DESIGNED THIS WAY to prevent PAY TO WIN/100% PAY TO PLAY.

 

You are willing to tell people who can't access paypal to go ### themselves.  You rock.

 

You obviously have no idea what month to month price fixing does to an economy.  You rock.

 

The issue is not that someone can play for free.  that is your issue, if you don't like it, don't buy silver... good luck with that though, you probably don't have the patience to wait 12 months for 1 gold (which is why you'd buy it instead).  You rock.

 

Again, thank you Rolf for designing a game that players can work hard and elevate their in game status regardless of their real world status and wealth.  Whether it is because you live in a region of the world where they value social programs, or because you are just that benevolent.  Thank You (Its why I ran the premium shop to begin with... You never limited F2P time and allowed for a working class of players that has a chance to elevate themselves).

 

Yarnevk, I hope you enjoy swimming in your pools of money if it changes.  And I hope you don't worry about swimming alone, maybe you can buy a bunch of alts on your own server when no one is around to help your work and dreams.

 

(the reason I have argued this long is to reveal the character of those who yell "subsidy" and "trader drainers."  My time in this thread is done.  if another is started, I will follow it and make sure the same effort is made.)

Edited May 17, 2013 by Jarosz

[yarnevk 257]

Wrong.  If a F2P can get premium in game, he/she doesn't pay into the system.  If he/she can work hard enough (which benefits other PAYING players, the PAYING players is more likely to stick around) 

 

And if we was talking about a player to player trade economy where both players benefit, then I would agree that paying silver for f2p so they can have premium play is fine.   I get dirt you get silver has benefited both players, and then each of those two players can engage two more players and so on and so on.  Then I do not care if the silver was paid for, crafted for or trader drained, because then it recirculates amongst the general economy and hopefully does that a lot before it hits a drain.   You will notice that you can remove traders from what I said and that player driven economy still exists that allows f2p to become premium without paying, it is not neccessary to have traders for that to happen.   I can accomplish the same thing with a village or alliance because the game is premised on that very idea of community.  

 

You do not need cashshop silver sales, player discount gold sales nor redistirbution of silver to have a sandbox player driven economy like you keep insisting, Mortal Online has none of those things and has a player driven sandbox economy that supports f2p with the only cash paid being p2p subscription.

 

The issue is that we have a trader system in which you can get silver from your trader to benefit only yourself to get more traders recursively for infinite profits to again benefit only your game, without Rolf ever getting a cut or the player driven economy ever benefiting.  In fact one or two traders have come out and said they do that very thing and will continue to do so because they only care about themselves and they will do it even though they can afford to pay. You cannot pretend those are the only two doing it.  It does not matter that some people do not use the system that way, it matters that some can use it that way.  If you get silver out of players upkeep by selling 1s cloth squares, which is excessive compared to the player driven economy value, then you can use all your trader proceed and paying for your game only benefits yourself and that cost Rolf money, if you in fact can afford to pay and would if you was forced to.   Give human nature an advantage and most of them will take it because it is good for themselves, even though that is not better for everyone else, and maybe even harmful to them in the end if development fails for lack of sufficient funding.

 

You are confusing the issue that traders as implemented are necessary to have a player driven economy, while ignoring the reality of how they are in fact used, and may in fact be hurting more than helping especially when it come to Code AB finances.   Your very argument is if traders was removed  or changed to make impossible their abuse, that all of them would rage quit rather than pay up and f2p would vanish is not true because some traders have said they would pay if forced to, and there are others that already pay and craft and trade without having a trader to keep a player driven economy going.  It just would not be an artificially hyper-inflated economy but it would still support f2p and encourage them to be p2p or a working premium.

Edited May 17, 2013 by yarnevk

[Jarosz 189]

And if we was talking about a player to player trade economy where both players benefit, then I would agree that paying silver for f2p so they can have premium play is fine.   I get dirt you get silver has benefited both players, and then each of those two players can engage two more players and so on and so on.  Then I do not care if the silver was paid for, crafted for or trader drained, because then it recirculates amongst the general economy and hopefully does that a lot before it hits a drain.   You will notice that you can remove traders from what I said and that player driven economy still exists that allows f2p to become premium without paying, it is not neccessary to have traders for that to happen.   I can accomplish the same thing with a village because the game is premised on that very idea of community.

 

The issue is that we have a trader system in which you can get silver from your trader to benefit only yourself to get more traders recursively for infinite profits to again benefit only your game, without Rolf ever getting a cut or the player driven economy ever benefiting.  In fact one or two traders have come out and said they do that very thing and will continue to do so because they only care about themselves and they will do it even though they can afford to pay. You cannot pretend those are the only two doing it.  It does not matter that some people do not use the system that way, it matters that some can use it that way.  You get silver out of players upkeep by selling 1s cloth squares (for in excess of the player driven economy value) benefits and then paying for your upkeep only benefits yourself and that cost Rolf money, when you in fact can afford to pay.   Give human nature an advantage and most of them will take it because it is good for themselves, even though that is not better for everyone else.

 

 

Last time I am going to say this:

 

You cannot get infinity profit from the Traders.

 

You can only profit, if you can sell it (those who don't have paypal cannot personally profit). 

 

You can only sell it, if you can get it. 

 

You can only get it, if others put it into upkeep. 

 

You also have to pay upkeep. 

 

You do not get 100% of your own upkeep after taxes. 

 

Trader deeds benefit other trader owners. 

 

You are not in game 24/7. 

 

When a trader owner quits, the traders/deeds sooner or later leave the world.

 

The less silver that is available in game, the more silver will be purchased by those who are not patient.

 

Anyone can buy a trader.  Anyone can sell a trader contract, or make use of it themselves.

 

Wheres the exploit again?  If the system is designed to limit infinite profit, there is no exploit.  A trader does not duplicate money.  A trader does not guarantee any set return.

 

again.  If it isn't infinite profit, it is not an exploit.  Sooner or later when silver runs low, trader deeds disband and the Trader drainers LOSE 50 silver per trader.

 

Rolf does not depend on Silver purchases for his income.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Jarosz

[yarnevk 257]

 

 

You cannot get infinity profit from the Traders.

 

 

Yes you can because it is a one time fee that entitles you to drain server upkeeps forever, there is no time limit on them, there are no reoccuring charges, and the very fact that you can buy them with silver means you can use one trader to fund another trader, and get yet more silver to do it again, and can use that silver to pay for your game without ever having to come up with cash forever.   That is the very definition of unlimited infinity profit, because you no longer have to put cash into the system to keep it generating silver profits.  You certainly can if you are feeling generous to Rolf, but the fact is that you do not have to.  30s monthly on Release is more than enough to pay for an entire game.   Harder to do on Indy at 10s monthly until you get multiple traders.

 

It matters not that you had to make a cloth square and you had expenses to do so because that is the cost of being a tailor, and it is the same costs of being a tailor that does not have a trader and has to sell to a dynamically changing market, rather than  a NPC with silly pricing that nobody in game would ever actually pay for goods nobody wants just because you paid 50s three years ago.  And even if you want to count those upkeep expenses you can pay those expenses entirely with the trader, and still have plenty of profit left over.  And any silver profit can be easily converted to cash profit, because you long ago made much more than the 50e it cost.  

 

You are in complete denial of something that traders themselves have said they have done, they have totally benefited only themselves from the multi-trader empire they have where Rolf get nothing but the initial trader fee, and they have every intention of expanding that empire because even though that shrinks the pie due to dilution they still profit more from having a bigger share.  You are in complete ignorance that what you said yourself that traders should enable free premium play means itself profit without reocurring cash expense.

 

You would even still profit if Rolf shut off the upkeep, because you are entitled to kingdom item discounts forever, which you can pay for with trader silver, and you are entitled to trade taxes which only requires people use the trader.  Less expenses means more profit.  You can do all of this is long as other people keep buying deeds or as long as Rolf does not shut down the server, or as long as you do not quit, because any silver beyond the 50s you paid cash for, is nothing but pure profit.

 

If he made it a subscription service you could still get limited profits with the big difference that Rolf gets a cut of the monthly action so this puts a known cap on his lost income, giving out a discount play to those who stay longer and stimulate the economy further.   You still have a bigger play than someone without the trader that pays for their entire game.

Edited May 17, 2013 by yarnevk

[Jarosz 189]

Yes you can because it is a one time fee that entitles you to drain server upkeeps forever, there is no time limit on them, there are no reoccuring charges..   It matters not that you had to make a cloth square and you had expenses to do so because that is the cost of being a tailor, and it is the same costs of being a tailor that does not have a trader and has to sell to a dynamically changing market, rather than  a NPC with silly  pricing that nobody in game would ever actually pay for goods nobody wants just because you paid 50s three years ago.  And even if you want to count those upkeep expenses you can pay those expenses entirely with the trader, and still have plenty of profit left over.

 

You would even still profit if Rolf shut off the upkeep, because you are entitled to kingdom item discounts forever, which you can pay for with trader silver, and you are entitled to trade taxes.  

 

If there is no silver, there is no payout.  You cannot plant 100,000,000 traders.  Therefore, you cannot make infinite profit.  you dilute the payout the more traders there are.

 

Infinite is an endless number. 

 

The economy on the server has to thrive for people to want to put deeds on it. 

 

The game does not require deeds.

 

All variables, you chose to ignore, limit the amount of profit.  YOU CHOSE to think its an infinite exploit.

 

It. is. not.

[Raybarg 442]

Its like Codeclub could not already be tinkering with the way money is distributed to all traders. They can at any given time make that more, or make it less, they can make it 10000 times more than it is now or 10000 times less than it is now, or any arbitrary number lesser or greater as those examples. Just like our skill gains, can you all honestly say the skill ticks are same as 2 years ago? Who of you have the data?

 

I quote Yarnevick for; "You are the one that thinks Rolf cannot do as he pleases,  He just did so on May 2nd and there was not a damn thing you could do about it because his EULA says he can and he did.   And again I ask you to stop with the economic analysis of the specific numbers of an idea because you always take it to the extremes and all you are showing is it would be dumb of Rolf to set the price at that point."

 

I mean, that quote means Rolf (or Codeclub) will do what they must, yes we all know that... they will do as they please. Why you basing a simple fact as that as a reason to ask someone from doing something they didnt when it is actually you who doing what youre opposing them doing, which they didnt (me repeating myself). Thats... quite... something.

[yarnevk 257]

 

Rolf does not depend on Silver purchases for his income.

 

And now you argue with yourself here, because you said earlier in the thread that Rolf expected silver purchases with premium and was dependent on it, and it happened less than he expected thus he raised prices of silver/premium to make up the shortfall.    If he is not dependent on silver purchase for income, then there would have been no need for him to raise prices on silver and thus screw up the game economy, he could have got it solely from premium increase which has much less direct impact on the economy.  

Edited May 17, 2013 by yarnevk

[yarnevk 257]

If there is no silver, there is no payout.  You cannot plant 100,000,000 traders.  Therefore, you cannot make infinite profit.  you dilute the payout the more traders there are.

 

Infinite is an endless number. 

 

 

Time has no such limits.  Georgraphy is limited to huge profits not infinite.

 

As long as CodeAB produces the Wurm game, and Rolf does not change his mind, and as long as everyone does not rage quit their deeds, and as long as you yourself do not rage quit, you are entitled to drain your portion of others upkeep every month for the one time purchase of a trader, far in excess of what you paid for it.  Of course that is not infinite in the sense of the end of the universe, but it certainly is unlimited.  Even the system that encourages prepaid upkeep adds a lot of stability to your financial outlook because it takes about a year before any drastic changes are felt (like raising prices 60%) .. After two months on Release that trader paid for itself, four months on indy simply means that anything after that, is profit because the trader expense is now zero.

 

If you double your traders from 1 to 2, you do not make the same because of dilution, you get a much bigger piece of a slightly smaller pie.  If you are 1/1000 traders and you make it 2/1001  that is a number that is very very close to 2x as much.  It is why players have multi-trader empires and rush to ensure they claim the land first before someone else takes that spot.

Edited May 17, 2013 by yarnevk

[Jarosz 189]

And now you argue with yourself here, because you said earlier in the thread that Rolf expected silver purchases with premium and was dependent on it, and it happened less than he expected thus he raised prices of silver/premium to make up the shortfall.    If he is not dependent on silver purchase for income, then there would have been no need for him to raise prices on silver and thus screw up the game economy, he could have got it solely from premium increase which has much less direct impact on the economy.  

 

I never said he was dependent on it.  I inferred he estimated that people would would buy 5 silver with every month (this was from a discussion him and Notch had at the beginning of Gold 1 when they unveiled the price scheme with silver...)  I then put out a hypothesis that the price increase was to correct for this erroneous calculation on Rolf's part. Rolf would have to confirm that hypothesis.  My other hypothesis is that Rolf is looking to expand development costs 60% (or 40% and 20% VAT).

 

Rolf has never depended on ALL players buying a set amount of silver.  Rolf's main steady/reliable income is from premium, and he can base his costs/profits off of that number more readily than silver.  Any silver purchased on top of that is Gravy.

 

The reason he must increase silver with premium dues is because of the in game option of premium.  He DID NOT want to get rid of it, nor reduce the "worth" that is required to get it.  Therefore, silver has to stay in line with monthly costs.  if 1 goes up 60% so does the other.

 

The reason he can't just "make up the numbers every month" is because of this perceived "worth"  If he wants to maintain in game premium, he must maintain the backing of the Silver coin that players print.  reducing upkeep costs, increasing upkeep payout etc alters the worth.  The only way to get away with this is to also alter the in game premium cost.  To do this, he risks losing players or silver buyers. (its a double edged sword).

 

He would have to get rid of in game premium to "mess with the EULA" as you put it, or risk losing the confidence of his paying customers and audience.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Jarosz

[Kagrenac 812]

Why are we still having trader threads, the current system works fine.

It seems people just don't want "their upkeep" to go to other people, or think that traders are cheating rolf out of money. If someone buys more traders with trader money, tthe total amount traders give is still the same, that person just gets a slightly larger share.

The amount returned to players stays the same, so it really doesn't matter how many traders people buy, especially on freedom.

[Suntzu 644]

Agreed. This thread can be closed now probs.

[Ayes 3,715]

You contention here presumes that the problem with Trader Draining is that not everyone is able to have one. That is not the issue at all as I see it or have presented it and this suggestion would only make the problem that the Trader Draining Subsidy creates elevated to an even more significant level. This premise that those who oppose the system of Trader Draining do so because they don't have one and are jealous of those who do have them is a *fabrication* made up by those who support Trader Draining; therefore, to structure some sort of system wherein everyone could have a Trader does not address the problem associated with them.

 

Here is the problem with the Trader Draining Subsidy. Any coins that players drain from Traders are taking income away from the games profits by eliminating the need to purchase those coins from the Wurm Shop. Also they can be used to avoid paying for Premium time from the Wurm Shop. Also players in turn sell their excess of these coins for prices that have been 30-45% less than the Wurm Shop. The Wurm Shop income is what supports the payment model and financial income of the game which perpetuates its existence. For Rolf to undercut his own profit potential in this manner has a significant detrimental impact on his financial profits; therefore, the Trader Draining Subsidy should be eliminated.

 

This was all brought to the forefront because of the price increases upon all of the playerbase. If the Trader Draining Subsidy were eliminated the game profits would increase significantly and everyone would then pay their fair share for playing the game of Wurm and the options available within it. Those who make use of this Trader Draining Subsidy don't want it eliminated since they would then have to pay out of their own pockets for the game services that they pay for with these Drained coins; thus, their counter is to perpetuate the "Trader Hater" myth into some sort of hysterical response rather than address its financial implications as I have done once again here.

 

I would dare say that the vast majority of the most successful onliine games do not structure themselves in this manner where they undercut their own profits by giving their players the ability to sell items from which they make their game profits. Beyond that, many strictly forbid their players from selling their ingame coins and making a profit in real life money from doing so. Wurm is *almost* oddly unique in this manner and I fail to see how it is a good idea to continue on with this Trader Draining Subsidy. Somehow these millions of other players of these various financially successful games have managed to come up with the funds required to play these games and yet those who make use of this Trader Draining Subsidy claim that it is necessary for them to be able to play the game of Wurm Online. Oh, in the manner in which they have become accustomed to due to the funds that this Subsidy provides.

 

=Ayes=