In-Game Premium Time Will Remain At 10 Silver

[AndreC 48]

Just saying, while everyone here who is still going on complaining about the increase, blame the government, not Rolf. Quite literally we're just paying tax to him so he can cover VAT, plus probably 10% extra to increase his own income. I can only speculate on the reasons behind this;

He can't prove that all customers are outside EU- He can say it but I garuntee that if they ask him to cough up some addresses he'd be in deeper. So to resolve that just make it so that everyone is in the EU, somewhere to avoid this.

We're basically paying EU tax now because of this, and because of the fall of the Euro and same tax rate, everything -basically- costs more, and businesses need to reflect that to continue to make good profit, so there's that....

And this just messes up the Wurm economy because Silver reflects 1 Euro, and if we have to pay basically 1.60 Euros compared to what we used to, labor to payment goes up as well, so if everyone followed this, 1.6k dirt is equal to 1 Silver, at the common 10i per action rate of dirt.

It's amazing how a line of supply can screw the end consumer, being us. All because of taxes.

Edited May 1, 2013 by AndreC

[ReaverKane 363]

Just saying, while everyone here who is still going on complaining about the increase, blame the government, not Rolf. Quite literally we're just paying tax to him so he can cover VAT, plus probably 10% extra to increase his own income. I can only speculate on the reasons behind this;

He can't prove that all customers are outside EU- He can say it but I garuntee that if they ask him to cough up some addresses he'd be in deeper. So to resolve that just make it so that everyone is in the EU, somewhere to avoid this.

We're basically paying EU tax now because of this, and because of the fall of the Euro and same tax rate, everything -basically- costs more, and businesses need to reflect that to continue to make good profit, so there's that....

And this just messes up the Wurm economy because Silver reflects 1 Euro, and if we have to pay basically 1.60 Euros compared to what we used to, labor to payment goes up as well, so if everyone followed this, 1.6k dirt is equal to 1 Silver, at the common 1C per action rate of dirt.

It's amazing how a line of supply can screw the end consumer, being us. All because of taxes.

10 iron (0.1C) per action.

And yeah, that might be happening soon.

Edited May 1, 2013 by ReaverKane

[Protunia 735]

10 iron (0.1C) per action.

And yeah, that might be happening soon.

In game premium is 10s still and that will keep it down.

[AndreC 48]

Whoops ,corrected =p

Well, the 10S in game for 1 month may not keep it down at 1S per 1K, but it will keep it from going up that high. I'm guessing 1.2K per 1S just as a guess- A modest increase compared to price which is techically a loss, but not so much for the employer depending on how they obtained their silver.

Edited May 1, 2013 by AndreC

[Pollo 146]

To be honest it is the silver price hike that fires me up the most. The premium increase is just money. But when some people are asked to pay more money (mostly from the premium increase but also silver sales) while other people stand to make more money (from gold sales on forum), that seems like a poor business choice, not everyone is feeling equal pain.

It may not be the trader drainers that are selling the most gold, but they are the easy targets right now. Realistically, trader draining is a Ponzi Scheme (Pyramid Scheme) and relies on new people paying in at the bottom for the people at the top. Looking at the player numbers since 1.0 hit, there is a sizable drop in online players since January and it does not look to be leveling out yet. Factor in that a relatively small deed purchased has almost 5 months of upkeep from the start, we are probably seeing only the beginning of lower player/deed levels, which will impact drainers.

It will be a fun ride the next few months, I just want to make sure that Rolf knows that there is a limit to how much he can squeeze.

[yarnevk 257]

For someone that is 100% F2P to get one of those, he's had to work hard for it, and for long. So yeah, most of the "F2P" bought silver from the shop to get those traders, and yet still, a trader isn't a freaking gold mine, its a help at best.

Someone in denial that there used to be a booming gold trade which allowed players to pay less cash for their first traders resulting in no income to Rolf, without having to work for it, at a price that only takes a month or two to earn back on new servers. Of course those players with gold coins are hoarding them to starve supply so they can justify their increased rates when shop silver price goes up because if deeds decrease reducing trader payments, they can always make money by selling hoarded gold coins, which they do anyways just because server aging also reduces deed upkeeps as more traders join the server.

You have to work a lot harder at an actual gold mine in Wurm because you have to mine everything else just to skill up to it. So yes it is not a freaking gold mine because a freaking gold mine is much more work, and that gold cannot be directly converted to coins. Being a gold miner is not an expense of being a trader, because any gold miner has those expenses without having a trader. And besides others have already pointed out that being a tailor is much easier to skill up on and works just as well with a trader, and the same person that said that is a trader tailor who can maintain their trader on the other servers that pay better with a visit just once a week. The same is true of Indy in my area, you only see the trader players once a week, sometimes once every two weeks. I certainly wish that was all the time I had to incur to maintain my deed and hunting and farming in Wurm.. Traders are certainly not the daily chores you make them out to be.

Of course your argument that it is hard for f2p to get a trader without paying any cash is going against other traders that say it is easy to earn the silver for it in-game. I did not see you arguing with them when they said that. But maybe you should because the gaps in each traders story is causing the truth to emerge in these threads.

Edited May 1, 2013 by yarnevk

[Protunia 735]

LOL, I have known in game f2p who ended up finding a free trader and then having a few more traders because of the trader they found.

Sure it doesn't happen a lot, but it has happened

And yes most players with coin right now are not going to be selling any of it until the market settles down after the increase.

[yarnevk 257]

Quite literally we're just paying tax to him so he can cover VAT, plus probably 10% extra to increase his own income.

He can't prove that all customers are outside EU- He can say it but I garuntee that if they ask him to cough up some addresses he'd be in deeper. So to resolve that just make it so that everyone is in the EU, somewhere to avoid this.

Rolf does not have to prove you are non-EU, his validating payment processor does that he already uses. The same payment processor that other MMOs already use to handle the charging of VAT, as it is the payment processor responsible for ensuring sales tax fraud does not occur, not Rolf.

Here is some gradeschool math for you since you seem unable to do it with your guesstimate maths. If the Swedish source VAT tax rate applies of 25% then that means the price of the service increased 28%+VAT for EU. Since he is assuming non-EU is EU by not validating, that means the price of the service increased 60% for non-EU because they are paying tax they are not supposed to.

What Rolf is not realizing is that by not validating and putting EU VAT properly on the invoice the EU will say the price of the service is 16e for 2mo, and Rolf had a failure to collect 25% of that which is 4e which they will most certainly collect for EU and non-EU , rather than Rolf just handing over 3.2e only for EU players. It in fact will cost more for Rolf to not validate, way more than it would cost to turn on PayPal VAT validations.

Edited May 1, 2013 by yarnevk

[AndreC 48]

To be honest it is the silver price hike that fires me up the most. The premium increase is just money. But when some people are asked to pay more money (mostly from the premium increase but also silver sales) while other people stand to make more money (from gold sales on forum), that seems like a poor business choice, not everyone is feeling equal pain.

It may not be the trader drainers that are selling the most gold, but they are the easy targets right now. Realistically, trader draining is a Ponzi Scheme (Pyramid Scheme) and relies on new people paying in at the bottom for the people at the top. Looking at the player numbers since 1.0 hit, there is a sizable drop in online players since January and it does not look to be leveling out yet. Factor in that a relatively small deed purchased has almost 5 months of upkeep from the start, we are probably seeing only the beginning of lower player/deed levels, which will impact drainers.

It will be a fun ride the next few months, I just want to make sure that Rolf knows that there is a limit to how much he can squeeze.

Just saying, while everyone here who is still going on complaining about the increase, blame the government, not Rolf. Quite literally we're just paying tax to him so he can cover VAT, plus probably 10% extra to increase his own income. I can only speculate on the reasons behind this;

Just saying, this is THE FIRST price hike in the entire games existance, you act like the price has been going up every year.

[ReaverKane 363]

In game premium is 10s still and that will keep it down.

Yeah but since 100% of the silver in-game is purchased in the shop, with the increase in shop price, the number of people buy from the shop will lower, which eventually leads to available silver in-game lowering, which will the provoke a price change in labour.

To be honest it is the silver price hike that fires me up the most. The premium increase is just money. But when some people are asked to pay more money (mostly from the premium increase but also silver sales) while other people stand to make more money (from gold sales on forum), that seems like a poor business choice, not everyone is feeling equal pain.

It may not be the trader drainers that are selling the most gold, but they are the easy targets right now. Realistically, trader draining is a Ponzi Scheme (Pyramid Scheme) and relies on new people paying in at the bottom for the people at the top. Looking at the player numbers since 1.0 hit, there is a sizable drop in online players since January and it does not look to be leveling out yet. Factor in that a relatively small deed purchased has almost 5 months of upkeep from the start, we are probably seeing only the beginning of lower player/deed levels, which will impact drainers.

It will be a fun ride the next few months, I just want to make sure that Rolf knows that there is a limit to how much he can squeeze.

Not really. Traders rely on anyone paying, and anyone can collect, its not a pozi scheme (everyone stands at the same level) nor anything like it, its a way that ANYONE can share a pool of money that is payed for by players, WHO ALREADY USED IT (unlike a ponzi scheme where the people at the bottom only lose money untill they move up a level) and can get part of it again.

Someone in denial that there used to be a booming gold trade which allowed players to pay less cash for their first traders resulting in no income to Rolf, without having to work for it, at a price that only takes a month or two to earn back on new servers. Of course those players with gold coins are hoarding them to starve supply so they can justify their increased rates when shop silver price goes up because if deeds decrease reducing trader payments, they can always make money by selling hoarded gold coins, which they do anyways just because server aging also reduces deed upkeeps as more traders join the server.

You have to work a lot harder at an actual gold mine in Wurm because you have to mine everything else just to skill up to it. So yes it is not a freaking gold mine because a freaking gold mine is much more work, and that gold cannot be directly converted to coins. Being a gold miner is not an expense of being a trader, because any gold miner has those expenses without having a trader. And besides others have already pointed out that being a tailor is much easier to skill up on and works just as well with a trader, and the same person that said that is a trader tailor who can maintain their trader on the other servers that pay better with a visit just once a week. The same is true of Indy in my area, you only see the trader players once a week, sometimes once every two weeks. I certainly wish that was all the time I had to incur to maintain my deed and hunting and farming in Wurm.. Traders are certainly not the daily chores you make them out to be.

Of course your argument that it is hard for f2p to get a trader without paying any cash is going against other traders that say it is easy to earn the silver for it in-game. I did not see you arguing with them when they said that. But maybe you should because the gaps in each traders story is causing the truth to emerge in these threads.

I earned the money for my trader in-game, it took months of filling 2000 pans a day on one alt while doing bulk bricks and mortar with my main chars (between skilling and such).

So yeah, its not easy, i don't care about "he said", or freaking rumours, facts are there i know people that invested lots of money in the game hoping to get some return and never got it. It IS possible to play for free in wurm, but its not just wave a magic wand and you're suddenly full of coin.

LOL, I have known in game f2p who ended up finding a free trader and then having a few more traders because of the trader they found.

Sure it doesn't happen a lot, but it has happened

And yes most players with coin right now are not going to be selling any of it until the market settles down after the increase.

Thats just dumb luck.

[AndreC 48]

Rolf does not have to prove you are non-EU, his validating payment processor does that he already uses. The same payment processor that other MMOs already use to handle the charging of VAT, as it is the payment processor responsible for ensuring sales tax fraud does not occur, not Rolf.

Here is some gradeschool math for you since you seem unable to do it with your guesstimate maths. If the Swedish source VAT tax rate applies of 25% then that means the price of the service increased 28%+VAT for EU. Since he is assuming non-EU is EU by not validating, that means the price of the service increased 60% for non-EU because they are paying tax they are not supposed to.

What Rolf is not realizing is that by not validating and putting EU VAT properly on the invoice the EU will say the price of the service is 16e for 2mo, and Rolf had a failure to collect 25% of that which is 4e which they will most certainly collect for EU and non-EU , rather than Rolf just handing over 3.2e only for EU players. It in fact will cost more for Rolf to not validate, way more than it would cost to turn on PayPal VAT validations.

Someone seems high and mighty today. I'm from the US, I didn't even know what VAT was until I saw the topic and did some 10 minute research on it, but thanks for the clarification.

[yarnevk 257]

Not really. Traders rely on anyone paying, and anyone can collect, its not a pozi scheme (everyone stands at the same level) nor anything like it, its a way that ANYONE can share a pool of money that is payed for by players, WHO ALREADY USED IT (unlike a ponzi scheme where the people at the bottom only lose money untill they move up a level) and can get part of it again.

While not exactly a Ponzi scheme with a pyramid at any given time where the bottom traders pay for the top traders, it is the same result of a pyramid over time, with the exception that a trader contract is never a loss unless you rage quit before your time. The one who gets to the new server with the most deeds and the most skills first wins, at the expense of traders that come later to the game with visions of gold coins, yet on older servers the trader/deeder ratio has increased which turns out to be mere silvers for your share of the distributed payment.

The reason that ratio always increases is that traders are not time limited contracts, they can only ever increase in number, whereas the initial land rush by new players deeding up can indeed drop, either this game turn outs to be too much grind for them, or they get into it with their neighbor and rage quit rather than move, or the service price increases, or they even cancel their deed being in that ratio by becoming a trader themselves..

This ratio leads later traders to pay for their game with the early traders gold coins, which is a win for the early trader, still a (lesser) discount win for the later trader, with a loss of income for Rolf. This leads to all traders demanding new player servers yet again despite the old ones never actually reaching capacity

Rolf making the new server for new characters only was his attempt make it more fair that everyone had to skill up, but that clearly did not take long, and the trader players was allowed to import silver which did give a head start and why Pristine was deeded up in two weeks.

The system requires that new servers be created to sustain itself because the payout is ratioed, similar to the way a Ponzi scheme requires new buy-ins to sustain itself. Changing the system to pay the average trader the average server deed upkeep would fix that time 'pyramid', and leave new servers free for new players, and traders would only be on a new server if they actually wanted to distribute their coins into new player trade for the good of the economy in hopes that increases the average deed upkeep. It would still be a real estate speculative play, just not the guaranteed payoff it is now.

Edited May 1, 2013 by yarnevk

[Wulfgar 1,128]

Rolf does not have to prove you are non-EU, his validating payment processor does that he already uses.

EU (or Sweden more likely) wants Rolf to prove that his players are non-EU. They don't give a damn about if PayPal has that info available or not. So Rolf needs to store personal data about all his customers. This is Sweden, not USA, and Sweden, like Denmark, have very strict laws concerning storing personal data about people. It would mean that Rolf would have to pay hundreds of thousands of Swedish Kronar for storage, security and backup equipment to fullfill those requirements. I would rather those money be put into development of the game.

[ReaverKane 363]

Thing is, Traders (and really stop calling traders to players, Trader is a NPC you buy, or you can't even get that right?) also re-supply themselves, since if you drain a trader then put that silver into upkeep, then that silver goes back into the trader pool, and trader gets it back. This is a loop, not a pyramid, nothing stops a guy from putting in 600€ (some people claim to have spent more) and start out with a huge deed and 10 traders right off the bat. Even if the server is 10 years old, so there goes your pyramid...

And since traders don't receive only money from people buying other traders, again, why am i even typing this...

Finally, if Rolf was losing income as you say (apparently about 3-4 players know more about Rolf's finances than him and his accountant) maybe, at least his accountant might have pointed out that that thing about him letting players go back to his VIRTUAL currency and use it again was a no-go.

Thing is you guys apparently fail to realize a simple fact: How much silver is in the game is a NUMBER in a DATABASE, if Rolf woke up generous tomorrow, he could simply duke out 10s to every player and *gasp* no real money would bleed from his bank account.

What happens is, Rolf SELLS that currency and premium (which is where he gets his money), then allows the virtual currency to be re-dispersed back into the game after the person that bought it had used it. Why? Because the opposite would mean that every single transaction would be done in REAL MONEY on Wurm. Which might even have a higher fiscal burden on Code Club (not sure, not really into financial law), but certainly would give Wurm a black mark as far as reputation and reviews.

I doubt anyone here would have come if the game reviews would include: "The game is all and great, but the only way to get currency in-game is to buy it, which makes every thing in the game extremely expensive, unless you craft it yourself, which given the extremely slow skill progression is likely to be months away in the future before you get to craft anything noteworthy."

Yeah i'd be pulling hairs in anxiety waiting for the game to download and install.

EU (or Sweden more likely) wants Rolf to prove that his players are non-EU. They don't give a damn about if PayPal has that info available or not. So Rolf needs to store personal data about all his customers. This is Sweden, not USA, and Sweden, like Denmark, have very strict laws concerning storing personal data about people. It would mean that Rolf would have to pay hundreds of thousands of Swedish Kronar for storage, security and backup equipment to fullfill those requirements. I would rather those money be put into development of the game.

Not to mention, if its anything like Portugal, he'd have to get acceptance from a committee for data protection, which would take a while, in the mean time, the servers would likely have to shut down, since Rolf would be in fiscal debt otherwise.

Edited May 1, 2013 by ReaverKane

[yarnevk 257]

EU (or Sweden more likely) wants Rolf to prove that his players are non-EU. They don't give a damn about if PayPal has that info available or not. So Rolf needs to store personal data about all his customers. This is Sweden, not USA, and Sweden, like Denmark, have very strict laws concerning storing personal data about people. It would mean that Rolf would have to pay hundreds of thousands of Swedish Kronar for storage, security and backup equipment to fullfill those requirements. I would rather those money be put into development of the game.

Not true at all, there is already a Swedish competitor to Wurm that already uses Paypal for validation, that has been charging VAT properly for years, their price was $14 or 14e, with EU paying more because of VAT. The only thing he needs to do is say Paypal said this customer did not have to pay VAT, he needs no personal information from that at all. There is no need to be a Rolf apologist on this matter.

Edited May 1, 2013 by yarnevk

[Wulfgar 1,128]

Not true at all, there is already a Swedish competitor to Wurm that already uses Paypal for validation, that has been charging VAT properly for years. The only thing he needs to do is say Paypal said this customer did not have to pay VAT, he needs no personal information from that at all. There is no need to be a Rolf apologist on this matter.

How do you know this? What is the name of this competitor and how can something he did for years matter when this new change starts this year? Oh, and I am not trying to be an apologist, I am just trying to derail this thread from turning into an exact copy of all other threads since the announcement, of the same people repeating the same arguments over and over for/against traders, in as many threads as possible. Edited May 1, 2013 by Wulfgar

[yarnevk 257]

, nothing stops a guy from putting in 600€ (some people claim to have spent more) and start out with a huge deed and 10 traders right off the bat. Even if the server is 10 years old, so there goes your pyramid...

Only if they are stupid enough to do that, when the new server pays much return for the same investment because of the always increasing ratio trader/deeder ratio, which if you bothered to read my post, is why I said it has the same result as a pyramid, that only the early backers make the excess profits in short amounts of time, anyone late to the server takes longer to win payback, and likely end up buying golds from the earlier player.

You continue to deny the notion of lost income with examples where someone might have paid cash on the web shop for some of their premium play, not sure why because you are in essence are saying that there is lost income because you cannot prove that all paid for their traders and premiums and silver with shop cash, when clearly there are examples where people have not done so.

Lost income does not mean they would have paid, it means they had the opportunity to pay but did not. And that is why I know Rolf cannot bookeep lost income, lost income can only be estimated in the worst case by assuming every one with the opportunity to pay would have paid, you can never know how much you income you would have realized had that discount or free play had not been there. Even removing the system does not tell you anything once it has already been there, because you can never go back in time and not put the system in.

Edited May 1, 2013 by yarnevk

[yarnevk 257]

How do you know this? What is the name of this competitor and how can something he did for years matter when this new change starts this year? Oh, and I am not trying to be an apologist, I am just trying to derail this thread from turning into an exact copy of all other threads since the announcement, of the same people repeating the same arguments over and over for/against traders, in as many threads as possible.

I have already posted this information in the tax thread and will not repeat it here, since you are clearly stating your true intentions was to actually divert the discussion from the fact that the price hike cannot be blamed entirely on VAT as stated in this very thread. It is only a fact that Rolf will be paying more VAT because of a refusal to validate, because the service price will be considered to be 16e/2mo for all without VAT validation, it is also a fact that even that is not a 60% increase.

The change in EU is only to close the loophole that companies could claim their customers was non-EU by not validating. It is not a change to the requirement that EU is required to pay VAT, for that has always been the case. They are just now forcing you to validate if you do not want to pay more VAT for non-EU, because they now assume your customers are EU. Someone paying VAT for years was just not taking advantage of that loophole.

That is just one example, no doubt there are more examples since northern europe has a very large game developer industry.

The discussion on VAT has nothing to do with traders, the same arguments would be made against this change even if traders was not in the game.

Edited May 1, 2013 by yarnevk

[Lokce 10]

This probably does it for me. Basically, the trader drainers that have been milking the system and living off our purchased silver are going to continue to get a free ride at everyone else's expense. Rather than making everyone buy premium time, Rolf continues to accomodate these freeloaders who have silver draining down to an art. I can afford the price hike. I could afford 10 accounts if I wanted. But because I refuse to support any more freeloaders than the U.S. government makes me support, I will dump all my silver into my deed upkeep and let my subscription drop. Maybe I will change my mind before it runs out, but I doubt it. I am already on the lookout for the next best thing.

Seeya around!

[yarnevk 257]

Lokce

That is not to the way to rage quit, for that just funds traders. If you truly want to rage quit you would disband your deed and let your premium run out. The premium being dropped will not be felt because of the prepay 1yr at old price that many took advantage of. But disbanded deeds does impact players with traders and it will be felt because their payout is deed upkeep, they are not directly affected by the price increase (and gold traders can even profit from it)

Edited May 1, 2013 by yarnevk

[Asciana 303]

This probably does it for me. Basically, the trader drainers that have been milking the system and living off our purchased silver are going to continue to get a free ride at everyone else's expense. Rather than making everyone buy premium time, Rolf continues to accomodate these freeloaders who have silver draining down to an art. I can afford the price hike. I could afford 10 accounts if I wanted. But because I refuse to support any more freeloaders than the U.S. government makes me support, I will dump all my silver into my deed upkeep and let my subscription drop. Maybe I will change my mind before it runs out, but I doubt it. I am already on the lookout for the next best thing.

Seeya around!

The trader owners will love you.

[ReaverKane 363]

This probably does it for me. Basically, the trader drainers that have been milking the system and living off our purchased silver are going to continue to get a free ride at everyone else's expense. Rather than making everyone buy premium time, Rolf continues to accomodate these freeloaders who have silver draining down to an art. I can afford the price hike. I could afford 10 accounts if I wanted. But because I refuse to support any more freeloaders than the U.S. government makes me support, I will dump all my silver into my deed upkeep and let my subscription drop. Maybe I will change my mind before it runs out, but I doubt it. I am already on the lookout for the next best thing.

Seeya around!

Yes, please do stop doing stuff you like on account of others, as a trader owner, i'd like to tell you that your dumping all silver into upkeep will do wonders for me, or others depending on what server you are, and you should instead disband your deed immediatly, and if you're on exodus, please convey the coordinates so i can be there with a cart, if you have high ql stuff at least.

[Void 75]

I'm rageous (if that's a word) because ignorant envious babies keep spouting nonsense like your post. Seriously, GET a trader, and see how great it is, maybe you'll be surprised.

The only sissy who is crying here is you.

Beside that, i got prem until june 2014, my deed is payed for 800somewhat days and i got 90 silver on the bank, you can stuff your trader up your butt.

That don´t change anything on the fact, that the traders are minus-deal for our poor, poor little Rolf.

[MaurizioAM 919]

There's an increase in long-term premium purchases. To me that constitutes sticking around for which I am glad.

I've spoken with you through emails and although I did extent my premiums prior to the increase for a year, that basicly means wurm has 1 years time for me to make a real decision to stick around or not. I am looking for some serious changes in this next year I hope they come through.

My bet is that yes although most players have done just what I have with extending premium time, they are really doing the same as I am with looking to see real progress.

Just for the record, I'm mainly looking for PvP changes.. perhaps some twitched combat of some sort, mortal online style would be nice.

[joedobo 1,187]

The only thing he needs to do is say Paypal said this customer did not have to pay VAT, he needs no personal information from that at all.

I'd think CodeClub would need to store a PayPal verified physical address, and IP for each transaction in order to have a paper trail showing how VAT didn't apply. It seems dangerous to me to hope you can just tell your tax collector that Paypal said VAT didn't apply to this bundle of transactions. I wouldn't be surprised if CodeClub has no infrastructure in place to individually track transactions. They would have to get accounting software to track and document that, and it appears Wulfgar has pointed out they also need excessive security services to protect customer data. It might be cheaper to just pay the tax.

And where is this tax thread? I tried to find it because now I want to read it