Regarding The Price Raise Discussion

[MaurizioAM 919]

Not giving any more comments about traders (as promised). But I'll comment on you bogus calculations, they are so wrong it's not even funny. You are trying to fool us to believe that 75% of all premium accounts are payed with ingame silver from traders?!

So, this is what it really means:

1. 10% f2p to p2p conversion doesn't mean 90% of the player run around as f2p because they are cheapos. It means that out of all accounts created, 10% ever go premium. I guess most of them quit playing because they didn't like or understand the game. Some are spy alts, or whatever.

2. 75% of premium accounts (counted since 6 years ago) have quit paying premium, they are now f2p accounts, probably unused in hibernation. Accounts payed by ingame coin is not part of this figure at all.

3. 25% of all premium accounts are still premium after 6 years! I'd say that is really something compared to most games. Those accounts are payed via Wurm shop or with ingame silver.

You can read about it here in a post by Rolf: http://forum.wurmonl...happy-new-year/

Be sure to read it till the end and you'll have a pretty good picture of Rolf's view on the current system.

Wow just wow thank you for posting that link. That confirms it for me that this Vat is just an excuse blown out of per portion. At the start of the year ROFL links how the outlook of the game is going which he says himself is very healthy and will be the reason for success this year to only now asking something different of his customers. Thanks again.

[Wulfgar 1,132]

Get a few traders yourself and see what it is like, maybe then you realize it's not like picking money from a tree, you actually have to work for it. I can't imagine how boring it must be to drain 15 traders, it probably means wasting several evenings per month just crafting jewelry. Sure if you want the game to be like work, why not.

I didn't intend to reply more in this thread, because it kind of went off-track when certain people went on the usual rants, but: It took me all of 2 minutes to drain my trader for 20s once a month when I had one.(someone also claimed you need a alt with level 4 on Path of Knowledge. Traders reset the same day as merchants serverwide so its not needed). Make 60 strings of cloth, turn them into 20 squares of cloth = 20s (this is using 60ql cotton and getting averagely 50ql squares, with 47 Cloth Tailoring, so can't be much easier than that. I wouldn't even have anything against traders if it weren't for the fact that I see more and more trader deeds pop up. Most of the north east coast of Deliverance is purely a string of trader deeds with 64 tiles distance between traders, taking up valuable space that could be used by new and active players. I also still believe that the whole trader mechanic artificially lowers silver value, hurting more players than it benefits.

[darthryan 588]

There's no real way to remove the connection between silver and real money. If you try to ban gold/item/character selling, people will simply do it without using the official forums, or advertising in public chats.

[Ayes 3,715]

I didn't intend to reply more in this thread, because it kind of went off-track when certain people went on the usual rants

And yet somehow your post is excluded from being a "usual rant"?

*laughs*

It took me all of 2 minutes to drain my trader for 20s once a month when I had one.(someone also claimed you need a alt with level 4 on Path of Knowledge. Traders reset the same day as merchants serverwide so its not needed). Make 60 strings of cloth, turn them into 20 squares of cloth = 20s (this is using 60ql cotton and getting averagely 50ql squares, with 47 Cloth Tailoring, so can't be much easier than that. I wouldn't even have anything against traders if it weren't for the fact that I see more and more trader deeds pop up. Most of the north east coast of Deliverance is purely a string of trader deeds with 64 tiles distance between traders, taking up valuable space that could be used by new and active players. I also still believe that the whole trader mechanic artificially lowers silver value, hurting more players than it benefits.

Anyway your not "usual rant" here makes a nice counter point and is informative on how easily draining coins from Traders can be accomplished, as well as the preponderance of Trader Deeds along that coast of Deliverance, although a person who uses that system to their excessive benifit even posted a pictoral showing that a good deal of those Trader Deeds were exclusively owned by him and set up for that purpose.

This is why some players such as myself are incensed that this Trader Draining system is being allowed to be continued due to the pervasiveness and extent that it has spread, with many deeds made *exlcusively* for that purpose. If objections posted to this situation are being labeled as "rants", so be it. If those who use this Trader Draining system are "annoyed" by others posting their objections to it, so much the better!

That you have pointed out some of the negative effects of Trader Draining, I personally see as a positive contribution to *exposing* how easy it is to accomplish and how extensively it has spread throughout the lands; but still, it is hard to see how you can label others as "ranting" when they post about the negative effects and yet you are excluded from this appellation. Aside from this, 3 stars for this post. Although I realize that you do not need my approval, I give it nonetheless.

=Ayes=

[Ayes 3,715]

There's no real way to remove the connection between silver and real money.

Yes there is. I posted a suggestion about how to do just that a few above yours.

After further thinking about this Trader Draining system I have seen that there is another solution that could be applied. This would be to DELINK ingame silver/gold from outside of the game to only make it useful within the game. Here is how it could be done.

All premium time, deeds, deed upkeep, Traders and the current Trader items that the game creates on them MUST be purchased from the Wurm Shop. The way it would work would be obvious for premium time and the Trader game items, since these would on listed on the Wurm Shop. For deed placement and upkeep there would be a deposit type of system for each account where they would in essence have a credit account which they add funds to by purchasing them for the Wurm Shop which would then in turn be applied for initial placement of their deed and then upkeep would be deducted from funds purchased from the Wurm Shop and deposited within the players account.

The current coin structured denominations would be kept within the game but since this seperate coin would no longer be sold from the Wurm Shop or be able to be used to place deeds, fund their upkeep or pay for Trader items the sale of these ingame coins would not effect in any way the profits of the game made through the Wurm Shop. Then Rolf could continue the Trader Draining feature (but Traders would have to be purchased from the Wurm Shop) to introduce more silver into the game for true player driven economy WITHIN the game. People could then buy these ingame coins from others if they choose, to use as payment for crafters items or whatever player economy was created. These ingame coins could be sold for whatever the market would bear and would have no negative impact upon the Wurm Shop revenue.

Absoultely this would significantly reduce the value of ingame coins where it would be of little worth to sell them to others. To transition to a system like this would take some considerations as to the current game coins that players already have but they could simply be deposited to player accounts as credit at the current valuation when this system was put into effect; thus, those who hold ingame coins under the current system would loose nothing, all current deed holders would retain their deeds and the upkeep within them would simply be credited as upkeep to their new Wurm Shop balance account.

With a system like this in place that seperates the connection between payment for premium accounts, deeds, deed upkeep, Traders and various Trader items and restricts them to only being able to be purchased through the Wurm Shop; and then lets the ingame coin system remain in place to be used for ingame purchases between players, the ingame economy would truly be a player driven one and the Wurm Shop profits would not be further effected by any sales of these coins, since all of the Wurm Shop purchases would then be restricted in this manner and go directly to the games profitability.

With a system like this in place Rolf could increase the ingame silver supply through Trader Draining at whatever rate he choose to stimulate an ingame enconomy and it would then not effect his profitablilty. Then in turn players could adapt this system in any way which they choose to purchase and sell crafted items or hire other players to do various jobs for them. Would this decrease the value of ingame coins significantly when a system like this was put into place, absolutely, since they then can no longer be used in place of payment for the services that I mentioned and the market for these ingame coins will be significantly reduced since they can not be used to pay for the services that the Wurm Shop provides.

Let the players create their own ingame economy in this manner and restrict it to only be profitable for use within the game itself.

=Ayes=

[KaiH 1,126]

Why are folks still discussing traders in this thread?

They are not going to be changed, especially not because of the price increase for premium time.

Move along, traders have their own thread in the town hall.

[Ayes 3,715]

Why are folks still discussing traders in this thread?

They are not going to be changed, especially not because of the price increase for premium time.

Move along, traders have their own thread in the town hall.

Cute trick but of course you have the power to enforce it.

*shrugs*

=Ayes=

[Hussars 511]

This would result in less p2p not more p2p conversions[...[

Some of the following games might disagree:

http://en.wikipedia....d_subscriptions

You're not penalizing, you're providing a limited sample. You are not removing anything, simply applying a cap after they have had a chance to try the full version. Just like if your premium runs out now.

Most markets show this does increase your conversion/purchase rate, as long as the product is desired and the cost of entry is "within reason" (i.e value for the price as perceived by the purchaser).

Some companies spend millions on these offers because it does work, and they do make money doing it, otherwise, no one would. Sure, you run the risk of them all planting their deed and leaving, but you likely wouldn't have pulled a purchase from them anyway. By providing them a reduced period for free, you actually have a better chance to retain them since they would have a "place to call home" that they are more likely going to feel tied to.

Yes, this would reguire a change to back end code (could be as simple as adding a column to the account table you can parse for), and likely a change to deeds tied to these accounts since if the originating account never had the flag reset from "trial Premium" (which would occur the first time the account used coin in-game or a store purchase). When those accounts purge, the associated deed would need to go with it. Since the "free" deed is no-trade, they cannot hand it off. Build in an additional layer, make the conversion premium change over required to be at least 1 month purchased from the store if you want to force a RMT as the trigger event, just like on the refferal system.

::Edit insert::

-Made some changes to clarify items

Further information, the free deed would be min sized capped (11x11 tiles) If they want to upgrade, they have to buy a "real" deed, or you could further drive a purchase by allowing them to pay at the token or game shop to unlock the full deed options.

::Additional Insert::

- Modified quote to focus on the primary point

- The change in providing a "free" deed would also be a basis for reworking or removing the enclosure rules, which would further drive "real" deed purchases. At the time of implement, run a check against the character inventory, no deeds, insert the free deed. Allow for X days/weeks to apply the deed or to replace with a "real" deed and then revoke the enclosure rule.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Hussars

[yarnevk 257]

..snip....

Let the players create their own ingame economy in this manner and restrict it to only be profitable for use within the game itself.

This was already proposed by another trader (I forgot who but they will surely out themselves). To summarize all kingdom items are only available on the Wurm shop, while the trader/merchant economy of all other goods is only in recirculated coin.

With that system in place you would not need to remove the shop coins purchase, as there can be multiple sources those who want to earn play money for trading by working or mutual trading, and those want to outright buy their coin from the only seller they trust, even if it is a higher cost donation that goes to the good cause of more dev money to Rolf, rather than that gold seller called JozDimezCheepzHere. they read about in the forum to fund his golden empire.

Yes that is not a true player driven in-game economy because it values crafted items with silver to euro to dollar exchanges, but it is one that players want. If I need a shiny lantern would much rather be throwing some bucks to Rolf to get some silver to buy it from a player rather than wacking a pile of rocks or just getting a default one on microtransaction shop. The old adage of time vs. money that gets distorted by the reality/virtuality interface.

The other issue is buying a kingdom item in game has always been a hallmark of Wurm that if you have more time than cash, then you can work for your silver and earn the kingdom items. Yes that means traders recirculate silver to skip paying Rolf for some or all of these things, but to remove that avenue of purchase of game also denies it to the noob wanting to try premium features out before he invests personal cash into the game. So leaving the kingdom item purchases in the game increases conversion rate of f2p to p2p, even though it may be offset by trader abuse. Now this can be fixed if an in-game economic transaction I can spend my cash to credit your kingdome account, which is something already proposed.

But I think it is more than enough economic upheaval to increase cash rates, so we best just put a cap on trader profits, by making them pay cash for trader contracts which they have to renew, this way they can earn an easy 50% return or more, but it would be impossible to pay 30e for 50s of player purchased coin and parlay that into a multi-deed 1g generating trader empire two years later with Rolf getting nothing.

Maybe there will be another game that has a truly player driven economy that does not cross virtual/reality boundaries, but I doubt it because devs always like to get paid by people that have more cash than time to skip the grind.

Edited April 22, 2013 by yarnevk

[ReaverKane 363]

Some of the following games might disagree:

http://en.wikipedia....d_subscriptions

You're not penalizing, you're providing a limited sample. You are not removing anything, simply applying a cap after they have had a chance to try the full version. Just like if your premium runs out now.

Most markets show this does increase your conversion/purchase rate, as long as the product is desired and the cost of entry is "within reason" (i.e value for the price as perceived by the purchaser).

Some companies spend millions on these offers because it does work, and they do make money doing it, otherwise, no one would. Sure, you run the risk of them all planting their deed and leaving, but you likely wouldn't have pulled a purchase from them anyway. By providing them a reduced period for free, you actually have a better chance to retain them since they would have a "place to call home" that they are more likely going to feel tied to.

Yes, this would reguire a change to back end code (could be as simple as adding a column to the account table you can parse for), and likely a change to deeds tied to these accounts since if the originating account never had the flag reset from "trial Premium" (which would occur the first time the account used coin in-game or a store purchase). When those accounts purge, the associated deed would need to go with it. Since the "free" deed is no-trade, they cannot hand it off. Build in an additional layer, make the conversion premium change over required to be at least 1 month purchased from the store if you want to force a RMT as the trigger event, just like on the refferal system.

::Edit insert::

-Made some changes to clarify items

Further information, the free deed would be min sized capped (11x11 tiles) If they want to upgrade, they have to buy a "real" deed, or you could further drive a purchase by allowing them to pay at the token or game shop to unlock the full deed options.

::Additional Insert::

- Modified quote to focus on the primary point

- The change in providing a "free" deed would also be a basis for reworking or removing the enclosure rules, which would further drive "real" deed purchases. At the time of implement, run a check against the character inventory, no deeds, insert the free deed. Allow for X days/weeks to apply the deed or to replace with a "real" deed and then revoke the enclosure rule.

Well this would be a nice change, but there needs to be a bit more restrictions.

No prior buildings or structures on the deeded area allowed, not even if you hold the writ to them. (Why is this? To prevent exploiting of the free period to keep perma-free deeds protecting previously built houses, and just making new alts every time one's "trial" time expires).

Still think this only adresses part of the issue with player retention. But seriously making wurm really attractive would require many fundamental changes. (basically wurm isn't a player friendly game, and while we love it that way, that means it will never have many players).

[Suntzu 644]

There are no alts!

[Suntzu 644]

I would like to see some money spent on advertising. If you get more new players then yer gonna be sitting pretty. The time is now.

[Hussars 511]

Well this would be a nice change, but there needs to be a bit more restrictions.

No prior buildings or structures on the deeded area allowed, not even if you hold the writ to them. (Why is this? To prevent exploiting of the free period to keep perma-free deeds protecting previously built houses, and just making new alts every time one's "trial" time expires).

Still think this only adresses part of the issue with player retention. But seriously making wurm really attractive would require many fundamental changes. (basically wurm isn't a player friendly game, and while we love it that way, that means it will never have many players).

I agree (obviously lol), was just using it as a baseline for more discussion as to new ways to do so. I think the current system would work though, have to hold the writ to place the deed over it. The idea would be to ensure those with enclosures now, would also have the ability to deed them.

This would also remove the ability for a single character to have 2 or more protected enclosures and still not have a deed. But overall impact would hit the longer term players a bit harder than the newer players, since they are the ones most likely to have multiple enclosures.

And since there is a max limit to the number of characters you can create on a single email address, if someone really wants to exploited it that badly, they will still find a way. With the deed not allowing to be traded or expanded, it would also reduce the size of the "perma-free" protection since if it is off deed, it would now be fair game.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Hussars

[Ricowan 199]

First off, i would like to state Rolf blamed his price increase on a 20% lose on the Euro. Rolf i can call your bluff, as i watch the Currency exchanges, as well as the gold rates, and the same as the Rothschilds pulling out of the gold market.

I think its funny as Rothschilds pull the money out of the market, certain aspect of euro based companies begin to raise its prices. Rolf, i have watched the euro now for a year, and the euro has held its own grounds, and even the USD has helds its ground. The Currency exchange rates are doing just fine, you sir just want more money. I believe you may have done something, or someone may have done something that caused the ground for your price increase.

What are you comparing the Euro against? Obviously not the SEK:

Rolf earned nearly 12 SEK per silver in 2009, he's now earning 8.5 SEK. Add on top of that the new VAT rules (baring a solution to knowing who should pay or not) and it's a pretty obvious situation and solution.

I don't have a personal stake in this. Wurm Online is just a game, and even after May 2nd when the price goes up, it's still the most affordable game that I currently play. If it wasn't, I would go elsewhere without any heartburn over it. It's just a game.

[MaurizioAM 919]

What are you comparing the Euro against? Obviously not the SEK:

Rolf earned nearly 12 SEK per silver in 2009, he's now earning 8.5 SEK. Add on top of that the new VAT rules (baring a solution to knowing who should pay or not) and it's a pretty obvious situation and solution.

I don't have a personal stake in this. Wurm Online is just a game, and even after May 2nd when the price goes up, it's still the most affordable game that I currently play. If it wasn't, I would go elsewhere without any heartburn over it. It's just a game.

Im guessing you only play 1 account and you have no deeds then? Cause if thats not the case then i call bull shat. And the fact that people are getting upset about it is because Wurm is a past time we choose to endulge ourselves with, a form of entertainment that is no where near cheap for most of us when considering there is only 1 character per account and premium has nothing to do with the extra expense of having a deed/deeds.

[Ricowan 199]

Im guessing you only play 1 account and you have no deeds then? Cause if thats not the case then i call bull shat. And the fact that people are getting upset about it is because Wurm is a past time we choose to endulge ourselves with, a form of entertainment that is no where near cheap for most of us when considering there is only 1 character per account and premium has nothing to do with the extra expense of having a deed/deeds.

And you'd be wrong. I currently have three characters, all of which have premium time; two of them have deeds (both deeds are on Pristine). Also, both deeds are larger than the minimum deed size, and both deeds have spirit guards. I don't consider any money I've spent on games as an investment of any kind. Monetary investments are meant for future return of money, games are meant for enjoyment in the present. If I'm enjoying myself, the money is well spent, but it is spent, not invested.

[Noble 70]

Its a few bucks, deal with it. The game is already pretty cheap as is and rolf deserves a little more funds.

[Corey 18]

fix your game and people might be willing to pay more already paying to much for a game loaded with bugs anyway

[Gavin 971]

What are you comparing the Euro against? Obviously not the SEK:

Rolf earned nearly 12 SEK per silver in 2009, he's now earning 8.5 SEK. Add on top of that the new VAT rules (baring a solution to knowing who should pay or not) and it's a pretty obvious situation and solution.

I don't have a personal stake in this. Wurm Online is just a game, and even after May 2nd when the price goes up, it's still the most affordable game that I currently play. If it wasn't, I would go elsewhere without any heartburn over it. It's just a game.

Look at the value pre-GFC http://www.google.com/finance?q=eursek

It's not as bad then, the EUR/SEK simply exploded at the time of the GFC - see in late 2008 when the value of SEK plummets? When Rolf first drew up the prices for premium the value of the SEK per EUR was not all that different comapred to what it is now (ignoring inflation) it's gone from ~9.0 to ~8.5 as you see in the top right corner it has only lost 6.17% since 2004

Edited April 23, 2013 by Gavin

[Vean 131]

So now to be fair compare all other players currency to both euro and sek.

Why currency mean anything?

[ago 470]

It's not as bad then, the EUR/SEK simply exploded at the time of the GFC - see in late 2008 when the value of SEK plummets? When Rolf first drew up the prices for premium the value of the SEK per EUR was not all that different comapred to what it is now (ignoring inflation) it's gone from ~9.0 to ~8.5 as you see in the top right corner it has only lost 6.17% since 2004

You can't just ignore about 20-25% inflation over the last 10 years. In combination with the lost Euro value those 5EUR from 2004 were worth about 30% more than now.

[Keldun 335]

I'd say that peak might be one reason why Rolf didn't have a reason to raise the prices earlier.

Now that the SEK has dropped inflation has piled up and ROlf has to start paying VAT for all european players, that he didn't have to pay before, he was forced to act.

[Judicator 539]

.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Judicator

[MaurizioAM 919]

And you'd be wrong. I currently have three characters, all of which have premium time; two of them have deeds (both deeds are on Pristine). Also, both deeds are larger than the minimum deed size, and both deeds have spirit guards. I don't consider any money I've spent on games as an investment of any kind. Monetary investments are meant for future return of money, games are meant for enjoyment in the present. If I'm enjoying myself, the money is well spent, but it is spent, not invested.

So then thank you for proving I was right... if you have 3 accounts and 2 deeds Wurm is the most expensive game that you are paying to play at its correct rates. So your argument is moot.

[islixana 27]

*new player*

as a new player looking at the potential cost to play this game is mind boggling granted to you play with a limited account and get punished constantly for it around every bend. even not buying a deed if you want to play alone or in a small group is extremely difficult to impossible due to the monster mechanics and the way they work to slaughterer new payers around every corner.

Costs

deed

account 1 char per account

guards

silver (yes it is a cost)

Issues at this point i feel the premium cost is fair due to how little you get for it and YES you get very little. what do you get ? access to the game and things to spend more cash on.

IF the cost was to be increase IMO there will/needs to be some kinda of compensation for that or honestly its not worth the investment consider the other costs piled on top of it.

one thing that would potently help is to detach silver from have a set monitory value designated by the developers. and have it better seeded into the world and instead sale game time tokens that could be sold in game at the value players find it to be worth.

edit *this i feel would also help the in-game economy since instead of items being a direct cash investment they would be an indirect cash investment. on epic atlest*

then increasing game time cost would be a smaller issues for players due to the fact many excessive costs would be removed and people would be more willing to pay for premium time since it would instead of just allowing to them pay for more things would allow them to actually use more things.

Edited April 23, 2013 by islixana