Regarding The Price Raise Discussion

[Pollo 146]

It is just hard to believe that we want the game economy driven by people who play for free, rather than by the people who are bringing the money directly into it.

But who cares, time to let this thread die.

If we want to play, we pay. If we do not want to pay, we leave.

The new subscription scale I will say is now "competitive" with other mainstream MMOs. My expectations for the results are going to be higher, and my acceptance of bugs and problems lower.

[Griffith 362]

@ Amadee if you let Rolf run it his way there wouldnt be PvE.

people comment because they care, not because they are arrogant.

both sides have good points and bad.

and i agree with you, its his desicion ultimately.

[SynMonger 1]

Even where some of us able to prove that we weren't from Europe the subscription fee should still be increased. Price has been maintained for years even though the avg price for most things has gone up. Blahblah mmo's. Smaller playerbase more impacted by these changes. Hopefully the $ will be used to fix everything and keep on going.

But the original question wasn't addressed. Why do I need to pay tax that I don't owe?

[Lokce 10]

OKay lets look at this say you do take out all the traders now the only money that is going to be circulating is from sales of tools, bulk goods and services. Do you think people are going to be buying the goods and services as much if they did not have a little trader funds to play with every month? My guess is no and for sure not like it is now you will have people making their own stuff no one has any silver unless they buy it from the store now and that little bit they do needs to go to the deeds upkeep.

I don't think you guys are seeing what a trader does for the game but sure i will play the game either way i can afford to pay for my game. i just won't be sending +1g back out into the community every month and i am just one player. All the trader holders will be doing the same and lets face it that is most every established player here.

People like you are a majority of the problem. +1g from you every month? You don't see a flaw in the fact that you have taken advantage of a broken system and are basically stealing money from Rolf's pocket every month? For every silver you send back out (and lets be honest, you aren't giving it away, you are profiting from it some how) that is one less silver that should have been purchased at some point through the ingame system.

I, for one, don't mind paying a little more for the game, because I enjoy it. If i quit believing it is worth it at some point, I won't pay for it anymore. However, I do have a problem with a price increase on premium time and silver that does nothing but profit the trader drainers of the world. Not only do you not pay premium with RL money (so it could be $100/month for all you care), a price increase on silver now means all that free silvers you are raking in every month are now worth even more. Instead of you making 100e a month (1g = 100s = 100e), your drained silver will now be worth 160e! Its a win/win!

But you keep posting on here and telling Rolf how you support his decision and you are in it for the long haul....hell, you probably can't afford not to be.

[namalesca 32]

Paying more has never been the problem for me... paying more for all the alts we have is my only problem, if this game is going to be "competitive" with other games in pricing, it should be competitive with versatility and allow us to have more characters.

[alaskanbob 225]

But the original question wasn't addressed. Why do I need to pay tax that I don't owe?

Because I would go as so far to say that it isn't solely for tax reasons. He needs to continue to build his project. & that's just how life works sometimes. I'm sure if we all had our own way we wouldn't be paying taxes to the government for projects that we don't support. Well, now you have to choice to support the game or don't. If you don't think it is worth it then simply don't pay for it.

[Merendi 26]

Ok, wasn't going to post but these two threads and some of the garbage being posted have really raised my hackles.

I for one, really appreciate that Rolf takes the time and is willing to share with us his reasoning. He has absolutely no obligation to do that and open himself up to all the armchair accountants, financial advisers, & game company gurus who know it all and can advise him on how to run his business and make him a smashing success if he'd only listen to their golden wisdom.

As for me, I don't give a rat's patootie what Rolf does with the money or how he runs his business. It's none of my business. He is offering a service which I have chosen to use based on my love of the game and the value for my entertainment dollar. I don't dissect the financial decisions of my internet provider nor tell them how to run their business. I decide if I like the service for what I'm paying them. Period. Same goes for any game I've ever played. IMO, doing that to Rolf about his business is the absolute height of arrogance.

As for the trader subject that certain rabble rousers keep tossing in to fan the flames, do you really think that Rolf is not perfectly aware of whether or not traders are a good thing in the game? Good grief. You must know that he know his business far better than you ever will. So I can only assume that you keep posting your venom to get others to jump on your band wagon and say "Yeah!! Get those dirty rotten trader holders. It's all their fault. We wouldn't have price increases if it wasn't for them. Kill them twice, break their thumbs." Can't you hear yourselves? Jeez.

Let Rolf run his business his way, for crying out loud. You like the game or you don't. What he does with the money is none of our business

/endrant and gonna stop reading these threads as they are extremely aggravating.

Well said Ama

[Alyeska 2,621]

The first four posts sum it up, do what you have to do. Tell the other kids that 10 bucks a month is walking your aunties dog twice a week and they're not in a position to complain as the game is still dirt cheap.

Keep up the good work!

[Kegan 3,926]

I wish the change was sooner so we can get this over with.

Do what you want Rolf just hurry it up lets just do it all at once too if you are going to change anything else like the traders lets get it done and move on. No need going through all this again later.

[Wulfgar 1,119]

Do what you want Rolf just hurry it up lets just do it all at once too if you are going to change anything else like the traders lets get it done and move on. No need going through all this again later.

I haven't seen Rolf mention traders at all. Not sure why you are getting all worried, I have wanted traders removed from the game for years.

[Protunia 735]

I haven't seen Rolf mention traders at all. Not sure why you are getting all worried, I have wanted traders removed from the game for years.

If he doesn't do anything this time its all out man..... everyman for himself.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Protunia

[Lolly1 206]

What? How do you even know what will be in Wurm 1.1? I know of at least one top secret thing that will blow your mind away and has been asked for by players for 7 years, and is mostly a feature for PvE players.

Uhmm....excuse me. How dare you tease!....now tell me what it is!!

[Skyrant 15]

Congratulations!

You doubled premium player base since December last year with little to now marketing cost.

You will now get 60% more from twice the players.

You will make a boatload of cash from everyone panic buying long term premium and hoarding cheap Silver before May 2nd.

You gave your buddies that drained traders for years and have a huge stash of gold/silver a nice fat bonus. Not only do they still pay only 10s in game (where is the 60% increase there?) they also can sell their ill-gained gold for 60% more now.

But wait. Why you need all this money?

You have done nothing to further move this game into the gaming communities focus. No Steam, not even Greenlight, No other distributions, No Promotions, No Marketing.

You have done nothing to fix bugs that exist in the game for months, some of them for years.

The whole update and bug fixing process is extremely slow and prioritization is incomprehensibly for most users if not for all.

You have not hired any professional support and the communication with the players, especially new ones is a joke.

You use free volunteer GM services that while doing their best are not what people expect when you raise prices like that.

Give me just one good reason why i should pay your 60% increase if i can see no change in the way this Game is run since 2004.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Skyrant

[alaskanbob 225]

Congratulations!

You doubled premium player base since December last year with little to now marketing cost.

You will now get 60% more from twice the players.

You will make a boatload of cash from everyone panic buying long term premium and hoarding cheap Silver before May 2nd.

You gave your buddies that drained traders for years and have a huge stash of gold/silver a nice fat bonus. Not only do they still pay only 10s in game (where is the 60% increase there?) they also can sell their ill-gained gold for 60% more now.

But wait. Why you need all this money?

You have done nothing to further move this game into the gaming communities focus. No Steam, not even Greenlight, No other distributions, No Promotions, No Marketing.

You have done nothing to fix bugs that exist in the game for months, some of them for years.

The whole update and bug fixing process is extremely slow and prioritization is incomprehensibly for most users if not for all.

You have not hired any professional support and the communication with the players, especially new ones is a joke.

You use free volunteer GM services that while doing their best are not what people expect when you raise prices like that.

Give me just one good reason why i should pay your 60% increase if i can see no change in the way this Game is run since 2004.

Maybe it'll be easier to do these with the funds increase? Oh wait.......didn't think about that did you.

[Skyrant 15]

Maybe it'll be easier to do these with the funds increase? Oh wait.......didn't think about that did you.

"mainly to cover the changed way we have to calculate VAT. That the Euro has gone down 20% in value" ~ Rolf

I believe it when i see it. Besides, the price increase is for taxes and the evil exchange rates. No mention of better service or broadening the player base... didn't think about that did you?

Edited April 20, 2013 by Skyrant

[Kadore 926]

Sure you could that too.

I mean you can get rid of traders, raise premium prices, get rid of in game paying for premium, get rid of referals,etc...

Make all pay at shop no matter what I am game for that.

If this was done he'd probably make more money for sure.

Would suck to be some people, but oh well can't please everyone right??

You do have to please enough to turn a profit.

[ZarmaZarma 192]

Hmm... I hope this is successful. The VAT kind of confuses me, to be honest. The system doesn't tax sales; it taxes objects being sold. So, for example, an item being sold for 5 euro's at 25% VAT cost a customer 6.25e. Sellers, then, can somehow charge the person 6.25e, and it's not as if they're selling it for 6.25. They're selling it for 5e, and charging 1.25e extra for VAT. Or, at least, that's how all the examples I looked up presented it. With sales tax, you would have to raise it higher than 6.25e to make up the loss (since it goes up based on the price you increase it to). On that note, it seems like the game is being raised to 6.4e/month (1.4e of which will be direct profit), and then the other 25% of the 6.4 would go into VAT.

Anyway... if Rolf wasn't being taxed for VAT, an increase of 60% would allow him to lose 37.5% of his player base and still make the same amount of money he was before off of premium. This is kind of optimistic, seeing that, if here were to lose even 20% of the playing populous, much of the games silver/deed revenue would be depleted.

Now, that 37.5% would only be if Rolf was not being taxed at all... which of course, isn't the case. The price is raising to 8 euros, but he's only making a new profit of 1.4e (once again, assuming I have this whole VAT thing right...), which is a total increase of 28% in profits. Because of this, if 17.5% of the Wurm population were to quit, Rolf would actually be making less from premium than he did before; and yes- this is an optimistic projection, since it does not take into account the total amount of silver bought from said players, how many deeds will be disbanded due to the increase in silver price, and the waning use of certain money sinks. What's worse is that, in fact, it's not just 17.5% of players that have to quit, but 17.5% of premium accounts that have to be withdrawn. If 1 in five players had an alt (I think it's more than that, realistically), and if just half of them all dropped one alt, it would be a total decrease in player population of 8.33~%. That's quite a lot. (Someone check my math: 1 in 5 players has an alt. 6 players total. 1/6 = 16.66%/2.)

So yea, I think this is a very tricky situation, and I hope it works out for the best of Wurm. Rolf has accountants, I've heard, so I won't doubt his choices here.

Edited April 20, 2013 by ZarmaZarma

[Ayes 3,715]

As for the trader subject that certain rabble rousers keep tossing in to fan the flames, do you really think that Rolf is not perfectly aware of whether or not traders are a good thing in the game?

Heh, "rabble rousers" an amusing term to use for those who are pointing out that Trader Drainers are playing the game for free, having free deeds and making RL money too boot from their Trader Draining activities. And No, I do not think that Rolf is aware that they are a negative factor impacting his financial profits to a significant extent, since if he were he would have announced long ago that they were being revamped to no longer purchase anything from players, which is what should be done now.

Then again he just might be aware of this but is too concerned that he will loose *certain* benificial players if he were to take this logical, reasonable, fair and equitable step in removing their payout system. This I suspect may have more to do with him not doing the right thing for all the other players who are susbidizing these Trader Drainers "free to play with all the benifits" lifestyle within Wurm.

It is just so obvious that these more sophisticated Trader Drainers are playing for free with multiple accounts, multiple deeds and selling gold to other players, that any who defend this practice in any way must be on the graveytrain bandwagon to *some* extent. As I stated a number of times, this is being allowed to continue at Rolf's discretion, so why would I and others not question his motivations for continuing this practice to the detriment of the *vast* majority of the playerbase and his financial bottom line.

Sorry, but common sense can not be set aside simply because some players that use this system to various extents do not like to have this topic being constantly brought up until the fair thing is done for the rest of the playerbase and this system of Traders purchasing items from other players is removed. Come to think of it, no, I am not "sorry" to be continually bringing this up in *response* when others try to defend this Trader Draining system in any manner. And guess what? As long as Trader Drainers continue trying to defend this system I will continue to respond, if I am in the mood to do so.

I haven't seen Rolf mention traders at all. Not sure why you are getting all worried, I have wanted traders removed from the game for years.

*agrees*

I have also been against this Trader Draining system for a long time and voiced my objections to it with the reasoning behind them, which are no different then at present. I have let the matter rest in the past but the difference now is that Rolf has explained the need and decided to increase the prices on *all* of the playerbase, I can no longer remain silent about this preferential free play and gold sales profit opportunity being allowed to continue at the expense of the rest of the players (myself included in this portion of course) who are in effect paying for others free game play and RL profits through Rolf's Trader Draining system being continued within the game.

Thus my various posts pointing out the obvious, which is trying to be obfuscated in response by others who are using this Trader Draining system to their benifit at the expense of the rest of the playerbase. If they no longer wish to hear my objections in *response* the solution is simple, stop trying to defend the practice as being benificial in any way to the vast majority of the playerbase who do not make use of this Trader Draining system and I will have nothing to ***respond*** to.

Of course when others are on the graveytrain it is only to be expected that they will fabricate elaborate reasonings to defend the practice but then in turn they should expect that others would respond to point this out. Sort of what forum discussions are all about. Perhaps some who do not wish to hear any responses in opposition to their claims are from countries where dictators rule and those in opposition to them are silenced as a common practice. This is not the case here, so either they will have to read opposing viewpoints or simpler yet, just not read posts that they do not like to and let others ramble on and on if they so choose, perhaps in effect wasting their time on a benificial change for all of the playerbase and Rolfs bottom line as well.

The responsibility for giving free play, deeds and RL financial profits lies soley at Rolf's feet and those that take advantage of it are merely "playing by the rules", of course inspite of their knowledge that they are profiting at other players expense to their own benifit and thus try to defend the system in some manner. In a way I can't blame them and in another I can. Anyway, only Rolf can do the right thing for all the playerbase and remove the ability for Traders to purchase items from other players. Will he then? Only the great god of Wurm in his wisdom (questionable in this respect) knows.

Death to Trader Draining! Long live Wurm! This is Sparta! (just came to mind, heh)

=Ayes=

[ZarmaZarma 192]

Death to Trader Draining! Long live Wurm! This is Sparta! (just came to mind, heh)

I like your war chant and all, but the "common sense" you're speaking of lacks numbers. Allow me to explain my "common sense", from the perspective of one without a trader to train.

Traders get money equal to a portion of money spent on traders, money spent on deeds, and money lost through the draining of deeds. This money doesn't appear from nowhere- it comes from the player base in one form or another. People who know how to properly manage their traders (it's a skill, but not one that's overly hard to learn), can increase the ratio of silver the trader gets from the kingdom's coffers. Having a properly managed trader on a server where no one knows how to properly manage traders can gain you a great sum of wealth, because your trader is getting all the money (up to 40 silver before it caps? That might be it.), and all the other traders get squat. So yes; a player who can handle a trader can gain money from it, and can use this money to manage his deeds, pay for his premium time, buy new items, etc. Is it unfair? Not really. The 50 silver investment takes sometime to get back, especially if you don't know what you're doing, and some silver MUST be put into the trader to increase your ratio. Furthermore, it's not as if only a certain few players can own a trader- anyone can buy one, and place it, and make money off it, assuming they have the accommodations to do so.

Now, this benefits the Wurm economy more than it harms it. It helps regulate the total amount of gold in circulation, because every bit of silver spent on deeds (even if recycled through traders) eventually leaves the server. Recycling money through traders helps keep money on the server. If we could not drain traders, money would leave the game at a ridiculous rate, because the only way to get money would be to buy it from the shop. If hundreds of gold is being spent every month, than within a few years, the entire economy would be depleted. The amount of money players would need to poor into the game would be ridiculous, especially if they planned on maintaining large deeds. Removing trader drains is almost synonymous to removing the option to hold massive deeds if you are not a player with an extremely large expendable income.

Oh, and I really don't see how they're profiting at "other player's expenses". Draining traders doesn't harm other players, especially if the other players had no intention to get the money back in the first place. Furthermore, the money drained from traders doesn't explicitly go into upkeep. Much of it is likely spent on buying player made goods, and paying players for services. This means that those players, who would never have gotten any of their money back in the first place, are actually receiving money through in game means that would otherwise not exist.

I'm sorry, but your argument seems far too much like "sour grapes".

Edited April 20, 2013 by ZarmaZarma

[Zuuma 42]

If we could not drain traders, money would leave the game at a ridiculous rate, because the only way to get money would be to buy it from the shop.

Every gold coin sold (in forum) right now = 100 euros rolf dont see in the bank = ~33 accounts paying the extra 3 euro after the price go up

But if the new gold coin price is really 160 euros, then we are talking about ~53 accounts paying the extra 3 euros to "recovery" the "loss".

Maybe rolf is attacking the wrong problem here...it is like Robin Hood in reverse.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Zuuma

[Kadore 926]

Every gold coin sold (in forum) right now = 100 euros rolf dont see in the bank = ~33 accounts paying the extra 3 euro after the price go up

But if the new gold coin price is really 160 euros, then we are talking about ~53 accounts paying the extra 3 euros to "recovery" the "loss".

Maybe rolf is attacking the wrong problem here...it is like Robin Hood in reverse.

I tried to stay out of this, not picking on you personally but Traders do enable people to have more and larger deeds, which has led to more servers being added, not many would have much of a deed when the upkeep gets to the 10 -14s a month upkeep amount.

I cant help but think those so hardcore against Traders are also upset that Wurm is also not played as intended with all of us A) living on a very small deed of our own, or Massive villages of god knows how many, I have a few Traders and I'd ask you find a single post where I ever have sold coin, or done anything with any silver I've collected that has left the game.

If expect every player to reach in thier pocket monthly to pay for the want for a larger deed to have some elbow room you'll see less large deeds, many will believe this would be another great thing for Wurm as open land will be available for all and the need for new servers will never be needed again, but I'm thinking the release of new servers helped Rolf's bottom line a lot more than it hurt.

[alaskanbob 225]

"mainly to cover the changed way we have to calculate VAT. That the Euro has gone down 20% in value" ~ Rolf

I believe it when i see it. Besides, the price increase is for taxes and the evil exchange rates. No mention of better service or broadening the player base... didn't think about that did you?

Naw I'm pretty aware of what he said but you seem to be assuming he is only doing this with a short sighted viewpoint. Might have to put more up front to see those results.

[Protunia 735]

There is no Reason Trader Owners should see a raise of 60% in value while everyone else pays 60% more.

This coin is taken from All Deeds and there Should be a 60% cut in upkeep to all players to offset this.

Not only will the Help the Majority of Players with costs after this increase.

It will make sure more players have more silver to spend.

End Of STORY.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Protunia

[Skyrant 15]

Naw I'm pretty aware of what he said but you seem to be assuming he is only doing this with a short sighted viewpoint. Might have to put more up front to see those results.

Still allowing people to get premium with in game silver for the same price ( no 60% increase there ) and the financial loss he has from trader draining, i would say he is doing this with a very short sighted viewpoint.

[Zuuma 42]

Hmm... I hope this is successful. The VAT kind of confuses me, to be honest. The system doesn't tax sales; it taxes objects being sold. So, for example, an item being sold for 5 euro's at 25% VAT cost a customer 6.25e. Sellers, then, can somehow charge the person 6.25e, and it's not as if they're selling it for 6.25. They're selling it for 5e, and charging 1.25e extra for VAT. Or, at least, that's how all the examples I looked up presented it. With sales tax, you would have to raise it higher than 6.25e to make up the loss (since it goes up based on the price you increase it to). On that note, it seems like the game is being raised to 6.4e/month (1.4e of which will be direct profit), and then the other 25% of the 6.4 would go into VAT.

Anyway... if Rolf wasn't being taxed for VAT, an increase of 60% would allow him to lose 37.5% of his player base and still make the same amount of money he was before off of premium. This is kind of optimistic, seeing that, if here were to lose even 20% of the playing populous, much of the games silver/deed revenue would be depleted.

Now, that 37.5% would only be if Rolf was not being taxed at all... which of course, isn't the case. The price is raising to 8 euros, but he's only making a new profit of 1.4e (once again, assuming I have this whole VAT thing right...), which is a total increase of 28% in profits. Because of this, if 17.5% of the Wurm population were to quit, Rolf would actually be making less from premium than he did before; and yes- this is an optimistic projection, since it does not take into account the total amount of silver bought from said players, how many deeds will be disbanded due to the increase in silver price, and the waning use of certain money sinks. What's worse is that, in fact, it's not just 17.5% of players that have to quit, but 17.5% of premium accounts that have to be withdrawn. If 1 in five players had an alt (I think it's more than that, realistically), and if just half of them all dropped one alt, it would be a total decrease in player population of 8.33~%. That's quite a lot. (Someone check my math: 1 in 5 players has an alt. 6 players total. 1/6 = 16.66%/2.)

So yea, I think this is a very tricky situation, and I hope it works out for the best of Wurm. Rolf has accountants, I've heard, so I won't doubt his choices here.

The monthly graph of prem players show the max in the period was 6014, but now is 5540. One 7.88% "natural" decrease in numbers. Dont think the numbers will be better after this change in prices.

The real problem here is how to stop this trend and bring more players ...and not make the ones we have leave or spend/enjoy less. Increase the price of Wurm wont make the game more attractive for new players.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Zuuma