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Rolf

Other Mmo Stats

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Hi!

Since many of you seem to have problems understanding why we sometimes discuss nerfs when it comes to the number of items and/or animals available to you per area, I would like to see some numbers from other MMO games. Maybe that will show how bad we are or if we are at par with other games. MMO games we should compare with are not games you are allowed to host on your own computer unless you accept 2-300 players on your local machine.

We are now using fully animated creatures (even if we'll be adding more animations later) with I'd say normal to high resolution textures. You may also consider ground decorations such as moving grass/farms and the density of trees. When it comes to trees we absolutely use less complex models than other games but it makes Wurm forests pretty dense comparatively.

So - please provide statistics from other games about items on ground you can see, items in inventory, number of pets, number of creatures you can control, etc.

Feel free to provide screenshots!

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You have to remember that other games are much easier to level crafts etc in. They do not require near the work to get to the upper levels as wurm does.

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Wurm got more individual items than other games, bam. Is that what you wanted to hear?

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in MO you have CC/creature control wich gives you points, different mobs take up different amount of points and having more than one uses up alot more points but with lores and some other skills the penalty decrease so 1-3(depending on if its just a horse or for example a minotaur) + you can have 5ish in every stable(non visible).

really hard to compare that to wurm since 90% of the time you have the animal/pet stabled and out of sight

items are all in lootbags wich disappears within 15minutes, so there not really much items on ground besides lootbags. 100items in bank/inventory

however the performance in MO is really really bad imo

might post some pics but i cba to even start the game

/wurm is better

Edited by pierre93

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I can not think of another game where you can keep animals like we can here. I see them with pocket pets a lot where you store them in your inventory or something but nothing like we have it here.

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Rolf -

I enjoy Wurm enough to have quit and/or cancelled my other MMO subs (which precludes my ability to easily substantiate my claims with screenies).

I feel that Wurm is very fair with the amount of inventory which characters are allowed. Other MMOs do not base inventory on character strength, but have the tendency to base it on things like bag space. I have to say that I like Wurm's realism better in this regard.

Where Wurm lacks, however, is animal re-spawns. I do understand that the pathing of said animals, as well as other related factors, increase server loads and some people would argue that there would be no issue if people did not hoard animals. Playing other MMOs, however, I have consistently felt that the population of NPCs did not fluctuate as much as they seem to on Wurm. Considering that we are still in the medieval era, and that during this era, horses, deer, chickens, and bison were (and in some areas still are) plentiful, I do feel that re-spawns need to be more regular and that those re-spawns should be based more or less on local area populations rather than server wide populations.

Edited by Theos
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only thing i can think to compare wurm to is eve online really.

Different genres, but both sandbox games and as such have another kind of inventory and item management system than other games.

Wurm is great in many ways, but 1 thing i do think is an annoyance is the limit to 100 items pr container, we are already quite volume or weight limited which makes perfect sense, but an artificial limit in a sandbox game isnt very pleasing, and im sure you would agree rolf.

no fun having to harvest 100 or 1000+ crops into different containers you gotta carry around, when other games would just have a stack of items.

Only thing i can think of off the top of my head here.

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In wow you can have up to 5 pets, and you can control one at time, the pets have skills and habilities you need to train, and they loose loyalty only in very rare scenary.

Btw not only in games, but in real life, most pets don´t loose loyalty, the need to keep re taming the pet every few hours is just plain silly, same as not be able to have more than one pet. Ican underestand you need to put a limit in the amount of pets you can control and have as side companion in fitgth situations for balance, but limit the number of pets you can have in other non combat situations and the need for retaming is just nosense

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You say we have animations rolf, but i would be willing to bet more then 60% of the wurm population have them turned of because it causes too much lag to run 1 client. You really need to look into that, especially for PvP.

I havnt used animations since 1.0, and honestly, i think you took a step back by releasing such "good" animations.

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Wurm offers so many things that other games don't, which is why many of us are here. I know no other game where I could do what I do here. That being said:

The one thing I can think of that we are behind in is elegance in mechanics design. The game offers a huge amount of things to do but of course everything has limits. The lack of elegance is seen when the limits are obvious and not subtly hidden in the mechanics. I'm not explaining this well so hopefully this example will.

Example: The rendering issue with tons of items.

Crude Solution: An event message saying, "There are too many items on this tile."

Elegant Solution: Items coded to allow pinpoint dropping in game with clipping on everything so that the problem solves itself.

What I'm poorly explaining is that for immersion you don't want to be literally told your limitations.

Edited by Elen

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Found it!

Wurm isn't the first, nor will it be the last game to suffer from infinite objects LOL

the much celebrated EVE even had it's problems back in the day with litter and it's lag producing effects

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/the-dustmen-take-to-space/

But i think it's fair to say, without any evidence to back my argument up in the slightest, that the probelm is typically not cleint, not graphics but the database.

And the reality of the situation is that, for a company the size of this, a major reworking of the database would halt pretty much all other coding for months on end.

Solution? I havn't got one.

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You say we have animations rolf, but i would be willing to bet more then 60% of the wurm population have them turned of because it causes too much lag to run 1 client. You really need to look into that, especially for PvP.

I havnt used animations since 1.0, and honestly, i think you took a step back by releasing such "good" animations.

The animations gives wurm a bunch of atmosphere wherever they appear.

Rolf isn´t to blame for a "step back" caused by crappy PCs.

I don´t say that the performance of wurm can´t be better, but the annimations are a BIG step forward,

and nothing else but that.

PS: if anyone want to compare Wurm to another MMO then please to another MMO which is programmed on Java... i mean... its Java...

Edited by Void
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Rolf, a reason we play wurm is because its not so much like MMOs but now you're asking us to compared wurm to other MMOs????

I do rather see animations removed then to be limited like what's going on right now, alto i have to add i don't care much for graphics like many others might do.

Edited by whykillme

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Hi!

Since many of you seem to have problems understanding why we sometimes discuss nerfs when it comes to the number of items and/or animals available to you per area, I would like to see some numbers from other MMO games. Maybe that will show how bad we are or if we are at par with other games. MMO games we should compare with are not games you are allowed to host on your own computer unless you accept 2-300 players on your local machine.

We are now using fully animated creatures (even if we'll be adding more animations later) with I'd say normal to high resolution textures. You may also consider ground decorations such as moving grass/farms and the density of trees. When it comes to trees we absolutely use less complex models than other games but it makes Wurm forests pretty dense comparatively.

So - please provide statistics from other games about items on ground you can see, items in inventory, number of pets, number of creatures you can control, etc.

Feel free to provide screenshots!

Honestly, I don't think most MMO's are setup like Wurm enough to make comparisons. They typically have multiple servers and instances and defined areas that can be polished for the best rendering.

You say we have animations rolf, but i would be willing to bet more then 60% of the wurm population have them turned of because it causes too much lag to run 1 client. You really need to look into that, especially for PvP.

I havnt used animations since 1.0, and honestly, i think you took a step back by releasing such "good" animations.

Seriously? Seriously! Get a new video card, or turn off the animations. It's really nice you're still nursing along that Pentium Pro & ATI Rage, but really now.

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I have a brand new pc which i bought 4 or so months ago, top of the range job. You simply cannot run a client for PvP with animations on.

Also you just said turn ur animation off... that exactly what i said i was doing!

Edited by Redd

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Xsyon------- Unlimited. Also since ur takin this trolly, Xsyon has a better house customization ie. there we can really do some wicked neat multistory designs. games had this since launch. there is no limit to wat we can have on tribe, inside the homes, Basically, if it fits, it stays :-P But then again Rolf, wurm uses java and is based on cubes. mine craft also. Xsyon is a full 3d game and looks great. It just lacks wat wurm has, farming (which is about to go live on xsyon) then combat is still being tweaked yet in its broken state blows wurms out of the water, but then again wurm doesn't really have one. Wurm wins in the end due to mining,making boats and priests. For now that is. one day xsyon will have these things and if it doesn't, wont be long till someone else does. So Rolf, you should make housing have more decorations, more custumizations and we play wurm for 1 reason, freedom, which is slowly poofing. You can not say your a unlimited sandbox when ya got limitations, but for animals I can understands, but this games needs a serious database and hardware overhaul as you cant Handle a 2k pop. the spawn rates speak it all..lol. So yea theres my 2 cents, your not the only game that's a sandbox Rolf. Also to remind you Second Life is the sandbox king and you can do literally everything in that game, you name it and it can be done. that's true freedom, though I don't want to see wurm like second life, but still just sayin players enjoy more to do, more customization and more to explore.

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I have a brand new pc which i bought 4 or so months ago, top of the range job. You simply cannot run a client for PvP with animations on.

I've got a 4 year old quad core AMD with 8 gigs of ram and an ATI 5770. I typically have 2 clients open and never have issues. I did turn down the drawing distance so it's not rendering trees 3 servers away, but I've got no complaints.

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Some people seem to have missed the point here (in particular the first two replies), though having said that I can't read Rolf's mind ;). What sort of desities of mobs or decorations are people expecting from their MMO's these days. Is Wurm so far behind, even, or even a bit ahead of the majority? How could it be addressed if behind? I think we can all agree that hunting can be difficult at times, certainly on some servers more than others, but is that may be due the nature of the game rather than low MOB desities? Certainly, we don't have instances here which in other games are insta-populated for the group you're with. As for decorations, again, tricky because Wurm allows for such customisation compared to many other games, especially when storage of 'stuff' is so important in Wurm. However, there are games out there closer to Wurm than the WoW's and guildwars etc. but I've not played them, so can't really comment on how they compare with respect to the above.

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Seriously? Seriously! Get a new video card, or turn off the animations. It's really nice you're still nursing along that Pentium Pro & ATI Rage, but really now.

Uhhh........You and your buddies should come to the pvp server whipping out those animations and I'll bring some people I know with no animations. I'm willing to bet every single one of you will freeze up.

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Also to remind you Second Life is the sandbox king and you can do literally everything in that game, you name it and it can be done. that's true freedom, though I don't want to see wurm like second life, but still just sayin players enjoy more to do, more customization and more to explore.

Just like to point out that Second Life grinds to a screeching halt with more than 20 players on a sim and has just recently, and rather half-assedly, added mesh object rendering and NPC pathing.

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Just like to point out that Second Life grinds to a screeching halt with more than 20 players on a sim and has just recently, and rather half-assedly, added mesh object rendering and NPC pathing.

Do not forget that each SL map is the size of the smallest deed in Wurm. SL and Wurm cant be compared.

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In other MMO's there is some form of banking system for items that can be accessed at certain locations. Bank size was usually bought with in game money to allow more hording of items and in some you could access bank items with all characters. Banking can be used in many aspects of the game be it items or animals. Mortal Online gave you a receipt when you deposited your house in a stable allowing you to take said animal off the server and store it. this helped in keeping the animal population down which helped with lag problems.

The one real thing i think that the game lacks is Human NPC's. It would be nice to have NPC's that help explain Wurms mechanics, kinda like a link to the wiki but interactive. This has been done in other games and it helps newer players get around and familiarize themselves with different aspects of the game. It's kinda like quest learning; go get said log and return to me. We see this kinda in the tutorial but not on the server where all the action is taking place. Other NPC's could help with the medieval life setting. I want to have my fantasy medieval castle/City but all i have is my penned animals and the few guards roaming around. Kinda kills the mojo, big buildings and fortifications but empty inside. Hiring guards to patrol the walls or merchants that travel would be a huge upgrade to the game. Skyrim allowed for easy control of your guards, make them follow you and then at your destination you could tell them to stay and they would defend said area or even work the smithy while they waited around. Just being able to do this made me feel like i had a small city of my own.

Edited by JudusX
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About the penned animals problem, i guess we need some stable-like building to "hide" the animal inside. Make the stable one 1x1 "house" (could be bigger with more carp) where you put the animal inside and no one can enter (or see the animal), but just check the conditions of animal and store some food (grains) to keep him feeded. This would make the life of breeders better and deal with the lag farms in servers. No need to nerf stuff and make people mad.

About itens in the ground, i guess the 15 item/tile is enough for most cases, but you need to think about some cases, like the guy working with painting.

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I think the whole idea of comparing Wurm to other games is weird. We don't want those other games.

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Rolf,

I think there is at present no valid comparison with other MMO games in the number of items rendering in a particular area, since in these other MMO's the items rendering in an area are for the most part *preset* by the game coding, whereas within Wurm there is no set point but rather one that is open to a constant increase in items through the player creation process.

The only MMO I can think of that really comes close is Active Worlds, where players build structures within the game world which when packed into areas increase lag dramatically. There they resorted to a method where if wanting to build huge structures or fill a tile with an excessive amount of objects, you would attach "movers" to them that would build parts of the building on other adjacent tiles and then "move" them to the desired tile to give the visual impression that the building was actually all constructed on that tile and adjoining ones.

Even in Ultima Online which reminds me of Wurm in many aspects, their houses which could be filled with many individual objects without any imposed quantity restrictions were the only aspect wherein the number of objects within tiles were influenced by players. With this in mind, until another MMO comes into existence based upon the concepts and abilities that Wurm offers, I think you will gain no valid comparisons here to be considered of any worth.

Anyway, always good to see you are interested in the playerbase opinions and they may well provide some unintended asides that are worth considering. I suppose also the use of java to program Wurm is giving you some of the major headaches in the rendering of all these new and improved features being added to the game, which may in turn be an insurmountable object that will limit what Wurm can aspire to achieve in this regard. Still, I wish you success in your continuing efforts to improve the game making it a more enjoyable experience for all to participate within.

=Ayes=

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