The Recent Changes To The Game Rules, What Is Intended, And What Isn't Intended?

[Maximustehgreat 353]

So i was looking over the game rules recently, I noticed a line that was changed, This made a few people wonder.

The question that was raised.

How can anyone truly know what is intended or not intended. There is no official game documentation to state otherwise. Excluding extreme and obvious unintentional stuff, like the whole trader thing way back. Obviously unintended stuff like that would be game breaking level, and clearly unintended.

So by changing this line, is this giving Gm's the ability to penalize players for doing something that they didn't know was unintended?

This is a heavy grey area, how do people truly know if they are doing something right or wrong?

The comparison to the old wording.

New one, by manny.

Cheating

Cheating definition:

* The obvious abuse of any exploit, bug or other methods of gaining skill and/or obtaining items that isn't as intended. (macros are covered by the rule above)

Original.

Cheating

Definition:

Cheating is the abuse of any exploit / bug listed below, or method of gaining skill or obtaining items that isn't as it was intended. (macros already covered and excluded)

Quote from manny's post

Posted Yesterday, 10:08 AM

Updated. New cheating rules:

Quote

Cheating

Cheating definition:

* The obvious abuse of any exploit, bug or other methods of gaining skill and/or obtaining items that isn't as intended. (macros are covered by the rule above)

* Sniffing the game communication data, trying to hack the server, or changing the client in any way.

* Using any tools that directly interacts with the Wurm Online client or with the network communication to enhance game play.

* Connecting to the Wurm Online game server with anything other than the official client.

* Gaining champion points outside of normal PvP. Examples of this are draining your own or a friends deeds, or killing characters provided only as a service for champion points.

Punishment:

The punishment for cheating will vary massively and depend upon the circumstances, the method involved, up to and including permanent ban from Wurm and loss of skills

In the specific case of champion point exploiting all the characters involved will be banned and their deeds disbanded.

Bugs

If you find an exploitable bug, you are required to report it to /support.

Non-exploitable bugs can be reported in the bug section of our forums. In the cases that a bug has affected your account, such as prevention of playing with the account, or the loss of items and skills on the account, please also contact /support. GM's can provide temporary solutions and/or prescribe actions until the bug can be evaluated. Only development staff can fix such bugs.

Bugs in PvP situations

GM's will not be able to respond to your /support call, if they have a player account of their own in the PvP situation.

A GM will only observe bugs in PvP situations, and will avoid interaction with the PvP situation.

Only if multiple GM's consider the bug to be a critical game breaking bug will they interfere with PvP

The old rules before this change

Quote

Cheating

Definition:

Cheating is the abuse of any exploit / bug listed below, or method of gaining skill or obtaining items that isn't as it was intended. (macros already covered and excluded)

Sniffing the game communication data, trying to hack the server, or changing the client in any way is not acceptable.

Using any tools that directly interacts with the Wurm Online client or with the network communication to enhance game play is not acceptable.

It's also not acceptable to connect to the Wurm Online game server with anything other than the official client.

This includes running macros, running a packet sniffer to intercept the network communication, and making any type of bot or custom client for Wurm Online.

Exploits

Exploiting is the abuse of a bug as listed in the following list.

If its not on this list then there isnt any exploit or bug abuse.

1/ Terraforming / digging close to village/ settlement walls and houses will in some cases cause them to contort. This is not supposed to happen. It can be almost impossible in some cases for players to correct this.

Use of this to purposely grief any player will be penalized. We are looking for a fix on this so this is a temporary ruling.

2/ Planning or building a house over a completed merchant stall isn't an intended function. Likewise dropping a completed stall inside a house or plan isn't an acceptable action. Both are considered as exploits and to use them to disadvantage another player is considered griefing.

3/ Champion exploiting.

Quote

It's pretty apparent that a champ can stay champ by killing his own characters and raiding his own deed.

I think Gavin put it nicely:

"the proposed 'champion points' system will make keeping your character champion a full time job if you play by the rules, or a exploit fest otherwise. Neither are desirable for me. "

As most of you know, I am very keen on coding preventive measures against exploits rather than trust humanly produced evidence and game master monitoring or try to hunt down players via ip addresses and payment streams. This is why there are diminishing returns on killing the same enemy over and over for instance.

I will however make an exception to this rule here and state that if we find evidence that you are draining your own or a friends deeds or killing characters provided only as a service for champion points all involved characters will be banned and deeds removed without refunds. It will be considered exploiting.

Such cases will be very clear and happen repeatedly so don't worry about playing a champ or killing people who don't move or resist because they are afk.

Punishment:

The Punishment for cheating will vary massively and depend upon the circumstances, the method involved, up to and including permanent ban from Wurm and loss of skills.

Bugs

If you find a bug, you report it to /support in the first case , then you will probably be asked to follow up with some details. Bugs have to be fixed by Rolf, but in some cases a GM will provide a temporary solution, and or prescribe an action till the bug can be evaluated.

Bugs in any PvP situation will not be visited or interfered with by GM for any reason until all parties involved confirm to a GM that all PvP action has ceased.

Edited March 23, 2013 by Maximustehgreat

[Kswords 461]

If you think it's an exploit then use /support and verify it.

If you think it's in the gray area, don't do it.

Don't just "email Rolf" about the bug/exploit and don't continue doing it even if he says it's intended, because chances are it's not intended and you will get punished. I've seen this happen a dozen times.

[einnel 13]

The problem, i think, lies in what is an acceptable mechanic and what is not. The term "Wogic" was invented for a reason, as many systems and mechanics in this game behave in a very inconsistent or illogical manner.

Just as an example:

Wrapping items in a barrel to get around restrictions in the mail system is an obvious exploit to circumvent game systems, thus according to these rules is cheating and a bannable offense. Yet, to this day I know of absolutely nobody that has been punished for doing it.

With that reasoning, one could assume it's perfectly allowed despite the fact that there has been no announcement about the practice from the dev team or moderators (at least not to my knowledge). What then differs from this situation compared to any other exploit?

Or perhaps the wording of the rule is to be taken very literally, and only exploits concerning the obtaining of items or skill points counts? In that case, everything else would be fair game, and that doesn't sound very likely.

This whole thing is especially confusing for new players, as there's just no easy way for them to know whats just "wogic" and what isn't.

If it truly is all a matter of the opinions of the devs or moderators, then the rule should say:

"The obvious abuse of any (according to our opinion, which varies from case to case) exploit, bug or other methods of gaining skill and/or obtaining items that isn't as intended. (macros are covered by the rule above)

Doesn't have quite the right ring to it, though, does it?

/edited many many times for spelling

Edited March 23, 2013 by einnel

[Keldun 335]

This really sounds like a "if we want you banned we can just change our intentions" kinda rule.

[Wraithglow 787]

To be honest, all that has changed in the bit you have quoted is instead of listing the exploits they know, they now include exploits they didn't know about. That, and adding the word "obvious" before abuse to make it apply to cases where someone clearly knows what they are doing is probably abuse, rather than just normal gameplay. Nothing there seems ridiculous *shrug*

My view would be to use /support if you are concerned something you are doing may be an exploit, but i dont know if someone with more authority will give a different answer.

[Suntzu 644]

unintended and sandbox dont mix.

[Minobu Tetsuhara 50]

The obvious abuse....

So... abuse that isn't obvious sounds like it would be all right then? And really, being not obvious sounds like something you do at your own place, on your own turf, when there's no one else in local.

Better wording is a very good form of prevention.

[joedobo 1,187]

I'm dumb and have no common sense. How am I suppose to second guess what someone else thinks is obviously an exploit?

I'd like to see this line added....

"You will receive one warning for use of a specific exploit. Punitive action will be taken for further use of said exploit."

[einnel 13]

Don't get me wrong, I'd love for the only rule being "Don't be a ######", thus taking care of all the problems at once. It works if its a small group of friends.

The big problem with that rule, though, is that it's subjective as hell... just like the word "obvious".

To make rules based on subjectivity is just begging for trouble.

There is a reason why laws in the real world are written to contain as little subjectivity as humanly possible, the big downside being that to make them comprehensive enough you have to write a craptonne of them, and exceptions and special clarifications to every single one.

And now we've written so much of the stuff that we need an armada of specially trained people (lawyers) to even understand what it at all means in actual practice.

This is obviously not a good model to use for a game. It's too bloated and unwieldy.

In my opinion, what we need is a plain & visible list of exploits that are known and forbidden, and as soon as one is discovered immediately add it to that list, along with an in-game announcement. We need MORE transparancy, not less.

And there should be NO bans or other punishments done to the people using these exploits before the announcement. We do NOT need retroactive rule application. Simply resetting any gains will be enough (and even that is debatable).

Bottom line: Nobody should ever have to guess or ask if something is an exploit or not. It should be stated somewhere for easy reference. This way, every case would be clear-cut and fair.

Edited March 23, 2013 by einnel

[RockyBalboa 565]

they change rules all the time... no mather what.... if staff think u do something bad... we dont need rules....

[BrQQQ 2,854]

I think the discussion is a bit silly. I think we all know very well what is meant by 'obvious abuse'.

Note the "The punishment for cheating will vary massively and depend upon the circumstances, the method involved"

You can not define everything, so sometimes GMs just have to take a look at the situation and judge if the player knowingly exploited or not. GMs aren't stupid and they sure as hell won't ban you on the slightest suspicion of cheating.

[Postes 5,282]

Sorry I just can't believe people try to play dumb and act like you don't know what is a bug is. It's the same jokers in BL-Elevation who got Thievery and Stealing up to 99.98 and then went, "oops well thought it was okay." Really? That's laughable stuff, anyone doing that knew it was an exploit of a bug and misuse of game mechanic skill gain.

Sorry but bugs are obvious in Wurm, it's easy to see what is intended and not. I'm so tired of people going around acting innocent and naive as if they don't realize what is intended. If someone seriously needs to hold your hand and tell you what is right and wrong, you should look into a different game because this one has a lot of "honor system" in it, it's dependent upon players reporting and not taking advantage of obviously glitches in the codes.

[Redd 4,281]

Just like the time you could shoot through houses, right posteh?

[Keldun 335]

As for being obvious: a while ago there was a global warning about using the unlimited catapult ammo exploit will get you banned.

There was a catapult patch, that did something, and the warning message was removed. the exploit was not fixed though, but no dev seems to care.

Does that mean we will no longer get banned for using the catapult exploit? Because it is at the moment not possible to use catapults without using the exploit. Only option is to not use catapults and take a maul instead.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Keldun

[Ronnie 64]

well..... If theres unintended mechanic why was it even placed in the game? Sure things get over looked but really, If its game breaking it should have been rather easy to notice that it was there. Theres patches without patch notes and things change, How the hell should we know if what was changed is or not intended then? Sorry but its pretty much just tells you if something changes, Dont touch it or we'll ban you if the GM you get feels like it.

Sorry but bugs are obvious in Wurm, it's easy to see what is intended and not. I'm so tired of people going around acting innocent and naive as if they don't realize what is intended. If someone seriously needs to hold your hand and tell you what is right and wrong, you should look into a different game because this one has a lot of "honor system" in it, it's dependent upon players reporting and not taking advantage of obviously glitches in the codes.

30%+ of wurms bugged shouldnt we all be banned then?

Edited March 24, 2013 by Ronnie

[Anothernoob 102]

First of all this addition had to be done. There have always been more exploitable bugs(or game mechanics) than the ones listed there and there was a dev response against those using them even before the last rule-update ^R1.

"Obviousness" is a bit relative though and it depends on someone's past in game experience if he will consider a game mechanic as an obvious bug/exploit^R2 BUT as BrQQQ said:

Note the "The punishment for cheating will vary massively and depend upon the circumstances, the method involved"

You can not define everything, so sometimes GMs just have to take a look at the situation and judge if the player knowingly exploited or not. GMs aren't stupid and they sure as hell won't ban you on the slightest suspicion of cheating.

And I think that this is enough (at least if the rule is enforced in such a way).

Just 2 suggestions:

1. Make exploit related tickets not to be deleted (if they do now) and spam the players' event logs about it once detected(as it has already happened in some cases). Also give the CAs a list with a GM-made list with the most common "false alarms" so that they can all give the answer quickly if it is possible.

2. Refer to every possible intended change in game mechanics in the dev blogs (if it is possible) so that the players will know that an unexpected change in game mechanics after an update is a bug and not a new feature that wasn't included in the dev blog.(The new rule makes this change not that important but it could probably reduce the amount of /support tickets after updates).

EDIT1&2&3: A good question though is how they should deal with people using game mechanics that exist but they are considered "exploitish". For example some archery related skill nerfs were done because the "intended" way to get archery was through hunting (or that's what I have heard at least although I do not remember if it was from a Dev's post or a player's post) but at the same time other skills that are related to combat like shield skills are grinded by bashing foals in your stables and this is not considered "exploitish". Such "contradictions" make it possible for someone to use the "exploitish" non-bugged game mechanic to get skill without knowing that it is unintended. If the game mechanic has to go then those who haven't used it will be at a disadvantage. If those who used it didn't know (and possibly didn't have a way to know before) that its use was unintended then how are you going to deal with them? In any case, adding that rule was a good idea so that people are aware of what can happen and try to protect themselves from accidental damage(whenever this is possible).

R1:

I can recall several such incidents in the past that had to do with both bugs and even non-bug related game mechanics:

1. One issue with thievery related skills and the danger bonus.

2. One issue with gaining archery skill by using alts.

3. Another issue with gaining archery skill by shooting shafts on creatures.

4. Another issue with gaining archery skill by shooting over fences.

5. An issue with locks that disappeared but the response was quick and gave people warnings early enough and time to replace the locks.

6. The issue with the catapults and the unlimited ammo.

Rolf responded with skill trimming on all these occasions.

So in fact the new rule doesn't add more danger. The chance to have problems because of using a bug/exploitable-game-mechanic without knowing it (which is what most people may fear) is not higher than it used to be.

R2:

For example:

Someone finds a trick to pass through walls/fences and steals things-> This is obvious to everyone that it is an exploit

BUT

Someone shoots arrows on a nogump while he is behind a fence and uses it to get archery skill (there was such a bug and Rolf responded with skill-trimming)->

1. An old archer who knew that you used to get no skill when shooting over fences would consider it an obvious exploit (I even did a /support about this bug months before Rolf fixed it and I wonder if any GM had seen it before I logged out as there was no response on the MGMT tab and there weren't any online CAs who could check it.)

2. Someone who has never used archery before (and especially newbies who have recently discovered archery) may consider it normal on the ground that you are shooting something on a live target.

3. Someone who used the bug and knew that he was exploiting it may say that he belongs in group 2.

So the only good way to deal with such a situation is adding the rule and do what is described in the quote above.

Another example about archery skill gain:

In the past there was some skill-trimming for players who were shooting shafts on creatures(and not only alts). I don't know if it was a bug exploit or a game mechanics exploit though.

Before the changes in archery skill gain shafts used to give 1/10th of the skill that you could get if you shot normal arrows. So:

If there was a bug that made shafts to give the same skill with normal arrows then:

1. An old archer would consider it an obvious exploit.

2. Someone who just got the bow in his hands who wouldn't be aware of how it used to work (like a newbie) would consider it normal on the ground that you are shooting something on a target in both cases.

3. Someone who observed the change and switched to arrow shafts would possibly say that he belongs to group 2.

If the exploit was the ability to shoot hundrends of shafts on a single creature:

1. The new archer wouldn't consider it an exploit (especially as long as most people suggest shield training on foals).

2. Some old archers wouldn't consider it an exploit as the 1/10 rule would make shafts a waste of both time and sleep bonus and for this reason they wouldn't use it.

3. Other old archers would still consider it an obvious exploit on the grounds that you don't even need to get out of your deed to grind archery.

So the only solution (other than having the devs make a complete manual for the game) again is adding the rule AND the process described in the quoted post above (and hope that there will be no mistakes). After all the rule was in fact active even before it was added.

And a fictional example:

Stone walls look as if they have holes when they reach 60 damage. If a bug makes it possible to shoot through the damaged wall:

1. Some people will /support it if Rolf hasn't added any info about that on the dev blog.

2. Others will say that as long as there is a hole on the wall it is normal to be able to shoot through it and that it is a new feature and not an issue caused due to a bug.

The new rule will simply make more people to do the first.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Anothernoob

[joedobo 1,187]

You can not define everything, so sometimes GMs just have to take a look at the situation and judge if the player knowingly exploited or not. GMs aren't stupid and they sure as hell won't ban you on the slightest suspicion of cheating.

Yep its too difficulty to document it all. but its easy to assure the player they will be given a warning. I'm glad you have faith in the GMs, I don't.

In replay to general thread, its bad to use ambiguous rules. At least with a one warning system the player can rest assured they won't be unfairly punished.

[BrQQQ 2,854]

Yep its too difficulty to document it all. but its easy to assure the player they will be given a warning. I'm glad you have faith in the GMs, I don't.

In replay to general thread, its bad to use ambiguous rules. At least with a one warning system the player can rest assured they won't be unfairly punished.

You have to keep in mind that if the rules say 'this is a list of exact things you are not allowed to do', sooner or later someone will find a horribly abusable situation and claim that it was not defined in the rules, so he can not be punished. That's why it is good to leave it a bit ambiguous, but you need to put some faith in the GMs for it to work properly.

The warning system might work but it won't always be appropriate. Sometimes the situation is too nasty to just tell the player 'well don't do it again'.

What I (personally) would prefer is that if a player gets punished or warned in any way for something that falls under the cheating rules, it could be posted on the forums for everyone to see. Any names would be removed. That way, players don't just get an idea on what is ok and what is not, but they also learn how certain situations are dealt with.

[JackBurton 903]

What I (personally) would prefer is that if a player gets punished or warned in any way for something that falls under the cheating rules, it could be posted on the forums for everyone to see. Any names would be removed. That way, players don't just get an idea on what is ok and what is not, but they also learn how certain situations are dealt with.

I agree with this. However, we all know this will never happen, because that would mean that GM rulings would come under scrutiny by the playerbase, and that just ain't tolerated.

[Torgrim 403]

Why is it that some people always have to analyze the rules and try to find holes in them? And what are you afraid of, really? Just play the game, have fun and don't do things that doesn't feel right. I'm pretty sure that 99% of the playerbase doesn't ever have to care about these rules because they don't do shady things. And should you happen to do something out of bad luck without knowing so then probably you will be cleared anyway...

[joedobo 1,187]

You have to keep in mind that if the rules say 'this is a list of exact things you are not allowed to do', sooner or later someone will find a horribly abusable situation and claim that it was not defined in the rules, so he can not be punished. That's why it is good to leave it a bit ambiguous, but you need to put some faith in the GMs for it to work properly.

The warning system might work but it won't always be appropriate. Sometimes the situation is too nasty to just tell the player 'well don't do it again'.

What I (personally) would prefer is that if a player gets punished or warned in any way for something that falls under the cheating rules, it could be posted on the forums for everyone to see. Any names would be removed. That way, players don't just get an idea on what is ok and what is not, but they also learn how certain situations are dealt with.

Just to be clear I don't think the GM's should attempt to document all the "do not". In my opinion the "cheat all you want until you get warned" consequence is justified because we would reassuring the players that they will never be punished with warning. With a warning system you don't have to worrying about whether something is obvious. Wurm should not assume that its players know what is obvious.

I absolutely disagree and protest against the forum community being able to pass judgment on players. NO WAY!

[Ayes 3,715]

The thing is, neither the old nor the new wording of these exploiting and cheating rules has been of any concern to me. That might tell you something right there, with no further explanation of the obvious needed.

=Ayes=