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Maozorz

Hardcore Mode Wurm - Your Thoughts And Comments

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Now I've been thinking this for ages but am not putting it in the suggestions forum because it will inevitably get flamed and riddled with bullets of text.

I would love a hardcore-mode Wurm. That being, full PvP, perhaps KvK, but once your character dies, that's it. Your character is truly dead and can only 'rebirth' from the very start, as a fresh you, from the start spawn, with no skills above that what you start with.

You would have to think about safety and your health at all times, village defences (if not cities and outposts) would be a must, hunting parties frequent and trust and friendship a massive factor in your survival and success.

However, a high-level player's death would be a massive loss not only to the player but to his or her companions and kingdom as a whole, so for this reason there could be a way to wish people back. It doesn't rely on silver, but rather a long, hard co-ordinated effort to do with the gods (find the 7 wurmballs). This way, all would not be lost if a powerful player was slain in a memorable bloody battle with the enemy - obviously this would be extremely difficult and reserved only for times of dire need.

Terraforming and making the landscape safe, building roads and ports would take extra focus, and the overall feel of Wurm would be very deep IMO.

Wurm is already deep in the sense that every little part of you and the world counts in some way. Every brick, every plank, every lump of iron means something and can go to great ends, passing far serving perhaps many purposes throughout time, and a hardcore mode Wurm, IMO, would just multiply this unique immersive feel.

I could go really into depth and write much, much more but I want to leave this post short (considering the topic) and see what other Wurmians think - comments, criticisms and how a hardcore mode Wurm would actually work and what would be involved, what it would be like.

Do post!

Edited by Maozorz
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This could only work with some changes to deeds, writs, and how account silver is handled i think. That being said I would love it.

Also, it might be nice to do this with combat ending before the final blow like dueling does, but if retargeted the final blow would be dealt. This could allow for escape attempts and mercy.

This style server would also be great to fix a few other problems, such as to remove the names in local of enemies, and remove or delay deathtabs.

Edited by Elen
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casual themepark MMO players prob - 80% of total population

casual sandbox MMO players - maybe 15%

hard core sandbox MMO (like Wurm) players - maybe 3%

PVP sandbox MMO players - maybe 1.5%

Death consequences sandbox MMO players - not many

These numbers are just off the top of my head, and probably under counting for casual themeparks, and over counting for sandbox games. You can understand what I am attempting to show though. Very few players would be interested in such a hard core game (there are some though), and most would leave after first death with "true consequences" (a toon that was established and had alot of time on but gone permanently now).

That said, it is an interesting idea. I could see this more as a temporary server with an announced end date so that "King of the Hill" could be encouraged. Rather than what would likely occurr, a bunch of fortress deeds with toons that never give themselves a chance to die so that they can sell items to those who truly use the server for what it was meant to be.

Edited by Pollo
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Perhaps if all npcs were removed, no traders or merchants, and no deeds, no writs, no banks, and no items would have permissions settings. That could lower safety a lot. Keys and lock would actually matter, no magic respawning defenders to worry about killing. Also, do an IP check to make sure no mule alts.

Edited by Elen
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casual themepark MMO players prob - 80% of total population

casual sandbox MMO players - maybe 15%

hard core sandbox MMO (like Wurm) players - maybe 3%

PVP sandbox MMO players - maybe 1.5%

Death consequences sandbox MMO players - not many

These numbers are just off the top of my head, and probably under counting for casual themeparks, and over counting for sandbox games. You can understand what I am attempting to show though. Very few players would be interested in such a hard core game (there are some though), and most would leave after first death with "true consequences" (a toon that was established and had alot of time on but gone permanently now).

That said, it is an interesting idea. I could see this more as a temporary server with an announced end date so that "King of the Hill" could be encouraged. Rather than what would likely occurr, a bunch of fortress deeds with toons that never give themselves a chance to die so that they can sell items to those who truly use the server for what it was meant to be.

I don't see this getting much support. The idea of this will turn the server with this implemented into more of a hermit server I think. People who spend hundreds of hours skilling craft just to lose it all completely will not want to participate in PVP for the fear of losing all he has given. This will also make bugs and other problems much more drastic (Such as alt griefing) and there needs to be a way to combat that before we would try something like that.

It's a different way of looking at it. But with wurm being so slow paced the pvp would never cause anyone to get high skill.

Only way I could see something like that is if people got a skill multiplier higher then on epic, like 5x, or maybe even more.

Who would want to spend years playing a character, and one day lose it all because of a huge server lag while digging, or you dc while on a boat and drown, or alts come and kill you.

I know I wouldn't come back to this game if it happened to me.

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If you had spent years playing you probably would have enough friends and wurmian-power to wish you back, for their good as well as yours.

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So 5, maybe 10?

Not worth making a Server for that, just think about how many play Wurm PvP.

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Something like an easy mode has a far higher priority than a hardcore mode if something like that gets invented.

The most people left the game because it is too time consuming and too complicated. If you are new to this game the complex surface of this game is giant.

In the future Wurm will need some easier advantage for players who are younger or lazier than we hardcore players are.

Edited by Sklo:D
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I could see this, but I think it would have to be a server with a set amount of time that the server will exist - that way nobody has the expectation that with sufficiently cautious play, they might live indefinitely.

If you know the blitz hardcore game ends in six months, well, it's irritating but dying isn't a big deal, especially if you reincarnate with your character's name, but no skills. At least you are still you. If the server life is six months, then even if you die, you can be right back and in the thick of things in a couple weeks if the Epic skillgain curve is implemented.

If you expect the server to last years and years, permadeath is another thing entirely.

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I like this idea (I enjoyed diablo hardcore and beat D3 inferno diablo on HC back in july) but I agree that there would be a very very small audience for this kind of server. One thing that could prevent the "turtling" would be a very large reward for breaking into someone's fortress and/or killing them. Otherwise nobody will take risks.

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If you had spent years playing you probably would have enough friends and wurmian-power to wish you back, for their good as well as yours.

I have to say that this would probably generate some really severe interpersonal issues between players. While you are always going to have people who don't get along with one another, the potential for some really terribly ugly fighting between players over whether or not to wish for the return of a controversial player is... something that I think would best be avoided. If there is permandeath let it be permadeath, with overturning only by Rolf if a game bug or "undocumented feature" caused the death.

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So 5, maybe 10?

Not worth making a Server for that, just think about how many play Wurm PvP.

Something like an easy mode has a far higher priority than a hardcore mode if something like that gets invented.

The most people left the game because it is too time consuming and too complicated. If you are new to this game the complex surface of this game is giant.

In the future Wurm will need some easier advantage for players who are younger or lazier than we hardcore players are.

This is why I didn't make it a true suggestion in the suggestion forums, rather as something that could be elaborated on as has been done somewhat so far. The idea of a short-term hardcore server makes a lot of sense regarding these quotes.

I like this idea (I enjoyed diablo hardcore and beat D3 inferno diablo on HC back in july) but I agree that there would be a very very small audience for this kind of server. One thing that could prevent the "turtling" would be a very large reward for breaking into someone's fortress and/or killing them. Otherwise nobody will take risks.

True that about the turtling, also archery, catapults, the removal of local, sieges, infiltration and guerrilla tactics would be much more of a combat focus if it were a long-term mode.

I have to say that this would probably generate some really severe interpersonal issues between players. While you are always going to have people who don't get along with one another, the potential for some really terribly ugly fighting between players over whether or not to wish for the return of a controversial player is... something that I think would best be avoided. If there is permandeath let it be permadeath, with overturning only by Rolf if a game bug or "undocumented feature" caused the death.

This is a good point of course, it could be that a player has the option to work hard during his or her life to secure his or her rebirth upon death, obviously it would be difficult and to solo it would require a lot of skill, but still it gives more freedom in this respect.

Edited by Maozorz

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I don't think allowing re-spawns at all is a good idea, takes away from the whole point of perma-death.

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So 5, maybe 10?

Not worth making a Server for that, just think about how many play Wurm PvP.

on good online times pvp servers has more/equal players to pve servers, and pvp servers come with true sandbox compared to freedom

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I think that this could be something like small "rewand server" which will reset after some (up to few weeks) time. Everything on it could be much faster - extremally fast skillgain, much lower action timers etc. You can join this server only in first few days of its existence, after this period it will be locked down for new (and dead) players. When you join, you are spawning on rather random, flat grass tile far from structures and other players. You can join server by writing deed name and password (?), too. Naturally deeds cost must be much smaller, I am thinking about something in range between 1 and 3 silvers.

After "locking" server, you can start earn points - these can be earned from stuff like: killing other player (based mainly on his combat skills, but also crafting skills), draining enemy deed, completing randomly generated global missions. Set amount of players are gaining rewands when "round" is over (something really unique for winner, very good item for second and third place, some silvers for places 4-10?). After the round is over, all players are teleported to their previous locations.

I think this server could be available ONLY for premium players after reaching certain level in any skill (50?) to give free players one more reason to buy premium and save the new, inexperienced players from irritation.

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Which is around 10 people

Only 10 hardcore players? I don't think so, look at Dwarf Fortress - this is the game for hardcore players and it is really popular, anyway. Hardcore games/game modes are unfilled niche.

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Only 10 hardcore players? I don't think so, look at Dwarf Fortress - this is the game for hardcore players and it is really popular, anyway. Hardcore games/game modes are unfilled niche.

the difference is dwarf fortress is fun

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Obviously someone has been playing Salem.

Thing is, with current rates of skill gain, perma death is un-viable in wurm...

Salem uses a Craft item, then dismantle it to earn skill, thing, so a group of players can "revive" a lost character pretty easily by sponsoring the items needed for skill. And still Salem only goes perma on PvP.

Wurm's do-it-to-learn-it type of skill gain, specially at Freedom rates is not viable, a "high lvl character" takes months, if not years to practice, and as we all have experienced it, you can get killed on various bugs, sometimes even a auto-walk+ disconnection can get you killed. (Happened to me once, was auto-walking on the shore, got dcd, when i logged back in was seeing the respawn window, apparently my character walked into water and drowned, in the time it took me to reconnect).

Warlander's Idea might work. Problem with finite servers is that the draw to sandbox games, specially wurm, is to leave a PERMANENT mark on the game.

It would take reworking the whole mechanics, and basically making a new game to have a viable, "no rage quits after dying" game with perma death. I mean, even champions (which had perma-death) were reworked so that death is not-so-permanent now.

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you can get killed on various bugs, sometimes even a auto-walk+ disconnection can get you killed.

As any true hardcore player will tell you that is part of playing hardcore. Auto walk can get you killed on DC? Don't auto walk ever. Servers tend to shut down in the evening hours? Don't play in evening hours (lesson learned from D3 crappy servers). Part of the challenge of HC is not only avoiding "natural" hazzards, but game and server problems as well. The smarter HC players will thrive and the weak will die.

The skill gain would have to be increased but that's already the case for epic servers, not exactly a new concept.

Edited by HellMutt

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HellMutt, for hardcore server skillgain should be even faster, if it would be permanent - 3X skillgain + epic curve? If temporary, like in my suggestion I think this multiplier should be around 10-15X.

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I like:

I think that this could be something like small "rewand server" which will reset after some (up to few weeks) time. Everything on it could be much faster - extremally fast skillgain, much lower action timers etc. You can join this server only in first few days of its existence, after this period it will be locked down for new (and dead) players. When you join, you are spawning on rather random, flat grass tile far from structures and other players. You can join server by writing deed name and password (?), too. Naturally deeds cost must be much smaller, I am thinking about something in range between 1 and 3 silvers.

After "locking" server, you can start earn points - these can be earned from stuff like: killing other player (based mainly on his combat skills, but also crafting skills), draining enemy deed, completing randomly generated global missions. Set amount of players are gaining rewands when "round" is over (something really unique for winner, very good item for second and third place, some silvers for places 4-10?). After the round is over, all players are teleported to their previous locations.

I think this server could be available ONLY for premium players after reaching certain level in any skill (50?) to give free players one more reason to buy premium and save the new, inexperienced players from irritation.

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