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Keldun

All About Grinding

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There are a lot of conflicting beliefs and myth about skill grinding floating around So I tried to collect and verify what I could.

When talking about skillgain you first have to be aware that there are two different values to consider: size and rate of skillgain

size: this is the value that is displayed in the skill tab like " you gain 0,000526 mining skill"

Some people also say they gain 526 mining experience, I'll use that terminology as well as it's convenient.

rate: this is how often the skillgain appears in the window, not all mining actions give mining skill.

To correctly judge this you have to make sure to set your skill log to the highest sensitivity.

Then there are four factors that the player can influence: CoC - Enchant, WoA - Enchant, Tool - QL and Material - Q.

All my tests have been done with mining, these are the results:

Skills and Characteristics

First, there seems to be no difference in the way skills and characteristics are handle, nor does there seem to be any relation between the two.

When you have low skill, you gain a lot of skill, when you have high skill, you gain less.

When you have low charactersitics, you gain a lot of characteristic, when you have high characteristic, you gain less.

When you have 25 body strength and do mining at 5 skill you gain the same body strength as if doing mining at 70 skill.

CoC - Enchant

This one if obvious, it's a straight percentage increase to the size of skillgain.

Does not seem to affect the rate of skillgain.

Conclusion: always use the highest CoC you can affort on all of the tools you care for skillgain.

WoA - Enchant

This one decreaes the size of skillgain, but it also decreses the timer, both decreases are exactly equal in size.

A 12s timer will give for example 512 xp and a 19s timer will give 811 xp, that's 42,7 cp/s for both.

Does not seem to affect the rate of skillgain.

So WoA has absolutely no affect on your skillgain, it will just change your material throughput.

Conclusion: Use WoA when you want to get things done, don't use WoA when you want to preserve raw material such as high ql iron.

Stamina

Site note: Rolf himself once claimed that you get less skill when you have less stamina left after a longer action, but in the example above the 12s timer ended in 82% stam and the 19s ended in 74% stam, the gains were still equal.

Tool - QL

Two test values, mining rock with unenchanted pickaxes:

70ql pick: 12s, 582 xp, 82% stam, 48,5 xp/s

10ql pick: 19s, 921 xp, 74% stam, 48,5 xp/s

The skillgain size is exactly equal! However when you mine for 100 actions it is quite clear that the rate of skillgain with the lower pick is much higher than the 60% increase in timers.

You also get a lower average in rock quality though.

Conclusion: Use a lower ql tool, when you want more skill. Use a higher ql tool, when you want to get things done or want higher ql mats.

Material - QL

Just did a quick test, when mining there is an obvious difference in base value between rock and different types of metal, but again using a 20 ql rock or a 60ql rock at 40 skill. has no effect on the size of skillgain. Rate hasn't been tested yet.

Untested rumor: People claim that you get the best skillgain when your average result is half your skill. It's supposed to work with lower ql tools, it's more doubtfull if it works by using capped veins.

Hope this helps some people.

Does anyone have any complaints about the points I amde? And I mean foundated complains, not: "I read in the chat that ..."

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Just question about the size of your data sample, not arguing the points made, but would be interesting to do a "vs." against other data samples in the same ranges.

How many actions was this taken from?

Was it measured by actions or actions that gave skill/stat gains?

(I know you said you only did a quick check on this one but, just to be more detailed) Material type and ql impact on the numbers.

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Lots more data, lot of unknowns and lots of random chances that maybe of lined up at the exact same time. Take maybe 1k mining actions for each scenario and that would make a real nice set of numbers to crunch down to conclusions. Can't come to a good conclusion based on few tests. Just a thought

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So far this was just a quick evaluation about which of the rumours and advice given hold more merrit, I just wanted to post my finding in case someone can provide a dataset against any of the claims.

But I will start collecting more data soon. I lack a way to automatically parse the event log though.

The gain size tests for woa and ql are pretty obvious though. I mined with every tool at first action until I got 3 skill readings, that resulted in values like time: 12s xp: 583, 582, 581, and time 19s: xp: 922, 921, 920. that is enough to consider that each tool behaves the same every time. and when you compare the two tools they have equal values as well.

I just realized that I need to test for possible shifts in queued actions though.

After I concluded that gains are pretty much same size every time I just did 100 unqued actions and noted the complete skillgain to know how many triggered the skillgain. then I used the other tool and repeated alternating to mitigate the effect of my own skill influence. then i had 2x3 sets of100. The three high sets were very close and the three low sets were close and there was a a significant difference between both rows of sets. So I could conclude a good accuracy for the result.

I just did this as a side job while actually mining a shaft. I just scribbled down some number and even managed to bumble that slip of paper -,-

Edited by Keldun

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Untested rumor: People claim that you get the best skillgain when your average result is half your skill. It's supposed to work with lower ql tools, it's more doubtfull if it works by using capped veins.

Let me chip in on this theory: The idea is that the 50% success rate for optimal skillgain applies here. What it means when "average result is half your skill" is that the QL distribution among the mined ores is such that you'll have "succeeded" with about half of the mining actions. Capped veins affect the average QL of the mined ore, but that does not mean you're off the optimal skillgain because it's not the QL of the ore that determines skillgain, it's the success rate. Ergo, capped veins does not affect skillgain, just makes it harder to tell when you're at 50% success because the cap throws the resulting ore QL off.

Edited by EliasTheCrimson

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Nice clarification on that point, the theorycrafters will love you for it :)

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Some quick numbers: mined 100 iron each at 47,6 mining, 26,3 strength and 24 stamina. The vein was higher than the mining.

numbers are "rate x size skill speed".

70ql pick, 12,9s timer, 17x2770 mining 214,7/s, 60x282 body strength 21,8/s, 49x320 stamina 24,8/s. avg 45,5 ql iron

10ql pick, 19,1s timer, 47x4430 mining 231,9/s, 61x452 body strength 23,7/s, 49x511 stamina 26,7/s, avg 31,3 ql iron

Small sample, needs recheck, but you can see:

Low ql pick has slightly raised size of gain, but that might be because the timer should be slightly above the mining cap.

Ql has practically no influence on the rate of characteristics, but a huge impact on the rate of skill gain.

Edited by Keldun

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Keep up the testing and you are sure to get a nice and high mining skill XD

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These findings goes in line with what I have observed as well. For mining I think the most interesting part here is the QL of vein discussion, it is the one that is hardest to figure out exactly, although I think there are pretty accurate posts about it already on these boards.

For other skills there are differences, the WoA, CoC and timer discussion is probably the same but material ql, tool ql etc. have more or less complicated roles and does not always work the same. It also matters if you want to maximize skill gain or stat gain. What also matters is how you do your skilling, do you sit and concentrate on always clicking once exactly when the stam bar is full or do you lazily queue up actions now and then while watching a movie etc. your tool enchant choices could vary depending on that.

Generally, I think the system is flawed. Why? Because it encourages mindless grinding of usless stuff rather than making good things that people wants to use.

Getting maximum skillgain at around 50% success rate is stupid because it makes it better to mine useless ql rock/iron or waste alot of trees just for skillgain instead of getting good skill while mining or chopping something you really want. Basically all skills that produce end results without needing to imp suffers severely from this. It's better to make useless locks, ropes, cloth, yoyos etc. than trying to make your best ql output because you get alot more skill gains from using lower level tools and worse ql materials.

Producing crap = high skill gain

Producing high ql output = low skillgain

Edited by Torgrim

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Getting maximum skillgain at around 50% success rate is stupid because it makes it better to mine useless ql rock/iron or waste alot of trees just for skillgain instead of getting good skill while mining or chopping something you really want. Basically all skills that produce end results without needing to imp suffers severely from this. It's better to make useless locks, ropes, cloth, yoyos etc. than trying to make your best ql output because you get alot more skill gains from using lower level tools and worse ql materials.

Producing crap = high skill gain

Producing high ql output = low skillgain

This is true only when dealing with create only situations. If you really want to grind a skill then if possible you switch to imp/repair. From your list two examples would be ropes -> imping net traps and yoyo -> imping puppets

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Some quick numbers: mined 100 iron each at 47,6 mining, 26,3 strength and 24 stamina. The vein was higher than the mining.

numbers are "rate x size skill speed".

70ql pick, 12,9s timer, 17x2770 mining 214,7/s, 60x282 body strength 21,8/s, 49x320 stamina 24,8/s. avg 45,5 ql iron

10ql pick, 19,1s timer, 47x4430 mining 231,9/s, 61x452 body strength 23,7/s, 49x511 stamina 26,7/s, avg 31,3 ql iron

Small sample, needs recheck, but you can see:

Low ql pick has slightly raised size of gain, but that might be because the timer should be slightly above the mining cap.

Ql has practically no influence on the rate of characteristics, but a huge impact on the rate of skill gain.

The most accurate method I have been able to determine to find your best skillgain requires a fair sized sample but is pretty easy to figure out.

1) You only get skill when the Random Number Generator generates a result from 1.01 to 39.99

2) Ore capped below 40 makes it hard to get a true reading on this, but any vein above 40 can give you a clear reading of the skillgain range ores you mine

3) To calculate best gain on any given ore you want to average QL's of mined ore between 39.99, and 1.01.

4) Best skillgain on any given ore type with your skill and your pick QL will have an average of (39.99 + 1.0)1 / 2 = 20.5 QL when only skillgain ore is considered.

You can't really adjust your skill value (except very slowly over time anyway), but you can adjust your pick QL.

The "half your skill" method of mining is simply a quick and dirty method of being sure that you aren't capping the ore almost every hit, or bombing out with 1.00's every hit either.

Edited by Farmerbob

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This is true only when dealing with create only situations. If you really want to grind a skill then if possible you switch to imp/repair. From your list two examples would be ropes -> imping net traps and yoyo -> imping puppets

Puppets and Net traps is the same as producing crap in my book :) But yes, it is valid mostly for create only situations, which I also said in my post.

And if you are a priest you can't imp, so then you are always forced to produce crap to gain any skill.

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And if you are a priest you can't imp, so then you are always forced to produce crap to gain any skill.

For the "produce crap" = "get more skill" for priests the gut-feel "observation" I have over alot of stuff made is not only about the success% factor to attempt to increase the skillgain.

For example Yoyo's which I have made on my priest silly amounts. I can choose to use low QL string, which brings my success% down, so it equals to more skills gained. But thats not all, as shaft QL does not show any visible determinant, its hard to see that it actually sets its own "challenge" factor into the equation, which seems to work backwards with this idea of "make it more difficult and you get more skill". With high QL shafts (=way over your main skill being used) will give LESS skill than using lower QL shafts (=way below your skill).

Someday I might actually run a test to prove that gut-feel "observation". But so far I've been able to increase my priests toymaking skill development so good that I am no longer cursing myself for *NOT* imping puppets like maniac when my priest was still just a follower. Crappiest strings+Crappiest shafts = Best skill from oneshot producing. Whats nice about that, those materials are a waste byproduct of making good yoyos which actually amount for alot of favor.

I am not making simple creation items much to have any real observation... I am not looking at carpentry/CT gains from making shafts/strings, nor do I look at skillgains making bricks or any other items. But, I would like to let me believe blindly that the material being processed has its quality affect the end result.

What I quoted, all this I added is in agreement with. Worse you make, the better you gain skill.

P.S. Its allways 3 determinants. Skill, Success%, Target. (for yoyo its Toymaking, String, Shaft... for bricks its Stonecutting, Chisel, Shard... )

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I think there is always only one component that makes a difference for the difficulty and thus skillgain and output ql distribution. That is why it also works to cast CoC on the string when making yoyos :)

The shaft has nothing to do with the skill equation but it sets the maximum possible output ql.

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