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uian

Cartography Skill

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I have an idea for a cartography skill. This was discussed by several players on global a couple days ago and I have been thinking about it. Some people may not agree that this is a good idea, especially our current map makers, but, on the other hand, it would save them some time, and they wouldn’t have to constantly update maps. It would also add to the content and economy of the game. Here is what I came up with:

MAP TEMPLATE

The first thing required to make a map would be a map template. The materials required would be parchment, ink and stylus. The size of the template (in tiles) would be determined by the ql of the template. A 1 ql template would have only 1 tile on it. From there, the radius of the map would be increased by 1 tile per ql, so a 2 ql map would have 9 tiles; 1 in the middle with 8 surrounding it. A 3 ql template would have 25 tiles, and so on.

CREATING THE MAP

Once the template is made, the cartographer would stand on the tile he/she wishes to be the center of the map and draw the map using ink and stylus. The area that the cartographer can draw would be determined by the cartographer’s skill level. A cartographer with a skill level of 1 can only draw the tile they are standing on. A radius of 1 tile would be added for each skill level beyond 1. A skill level of 2 could draw 9 tiles, a skill level of 3 could draw 25 tiles, and so on. A cartographer also would not be able to draw areas that are hidden by tall stone walls or palisades. This would be a way for players to prevent maps being drawn of areas they don’t want to be common knowledge, especially on pvp servers. If the cartographer’s skill level does not permit him to fill the template upon map creation, he/she could draw in other tiles, through map updating.

MAP UPDATING

Once a map has been created, it CANNOT be imped, but it CAN be updated. This means that the size of the map cannot be changed, but the contents can. As with map creation, this would require stylus and ink. The cartographer would stand on any tile in the area represented by the map. The radius of the update would be determined by the cartographer’s skill the same way it is determined when creating the map. The same rules in map creation with tall stone walls and palisades would apply here as well. If the cartographer is standing close to the edge of the area represented by the map, only those tiles that are on the map would be updated.

PIECING MAPS TOGETHER

I have not thought much on the mechanics of this concept, but maybe it would be possible for a cartographer to piece maps together to make larger maps. This would make it possible to make a somewhat complete map of a server. Of course this would be difficult and time consuming, because the cartographer would be required to travel the entire server, or buy smaller pieces from other cartographers around the server every time he/she would want to make such a map. This would make complete server maps or maps that cover large areas very valuable and would be a nice source of $$ for those who are willing to put forth that effort.

MAP CONTENT

I am not entirely sure what should be included when a map is drawn or updated. It may be as simple as a map dump of the area being drawn, but here are my thoughts of some things that should be included on the map:

-Deed names: This is essential because it is the best way for the map holder to determine his/her location on the map

-Tile types: grass, trees, buildings, rock, cobblestone, slab, etc.

-Tile borders that have fences or hedges

-Maps would be created from a bird’s eye view, meaning that if a tile had a building on it, it would be designated as a building tile, and it would not show anything inside the building, such as what type of flooring it has or what types of walls/fences are on the tile borders.

-The names of buildings (same name as the writ)

ENCHANTED MAPS

I’m not sure how I feel about adding this, but I thought I would throw it out there anyways. Certain priests (maybe Fo) could enchant a map with a spirit in a similar way Fo priests enchant mail boxes. This would make it so the map would mark the current location of the holder every time it was viewed. If this was implemented, it is my opinion that this should require a very high level priest to enchant.

I’m interested to see what other people’s thoughts are on this subject. Maybe some folk have better ideas on how this should work, or maybe it’s not a good idea at all lol.

-Uian

Edited by uian
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I like the idea, but i don't see it work in a game like Wurm. Just doesn't feel right

Edited by whykillme

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Its a base to start, i like it, lets hope people give some feedback, and don´t be scared by the -1.

+1

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Good idea +1 Looks like you have put alot of thought into it.....thanks for doing that and bringing it the forums.

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I like the idea of it and he has put a lot of thought into the template idea and it works fine , but I was thinking of a different approach to the details.

Have the size of the map be the difficulty, and the ql determine the details. That way it would be easy to make a detailed map of your deed but difficult to make a detailed map of an area like Black Dog Isle, and a server size map would be made by highly skilled professionals only.

For instance a person trying to make a map of Black Dog Isle ( on Indy center map).

10ql they get the basic land shape but no detals.

20 ql they get roads

30ql they get the topagraphics, hills, valleys, and flat spaces, and resources such as clay or peat.

40 ql they get forests and vegetations

50 ql they get buildings and fences (that can be seen from outside the deeds, most likely along the roads) and deed names with tiles or perimeter outside thier fences.

60 ql animal and spawn dens

They would not be impable since you cannot erase ink and failure would destroy the parchment, and it would take someone of equal to or greater skill of the map ql to make a copy.

Edited by Bachus
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I like the idea of it and he has put a lot of thought into the template idea and it works fine , but I was thinking of a different approach to the details.

Have the size of the map be the difficulty, and the ql determine the details. That way it would be easy to make a detailed map of your deed but difficult to make a detailed map of an area like Black Dog Isle, and a server size map would be made by highly skilled professionals only.

For instance a person trying to make a map of Black Dog Isle ( on Indy center map).

10ql they get the basic land shape but no detals.

20 ql they get roads

30ql they get the topagraphics, hills, valleys, and flat spaces, and resources such as clay or peat.

40 ql they get forests and vegetations

50 ql they get buildings and fences (that can be seen from outside the deeds, most likely along the roads) and deed names with tiles or perimeter outside thier fences.

60 ql animal and spawn dens

They would not be impable since you cannot erase ink and failure would destroy the parchment, and it would take someone of equal to or greater skill of the map ql to make a copy.

I had thought of something along those lines as well, but decided to go with what I posted here. It is a good suggestion as well and I would go for it if that was what people liked and the devs would do it.

-Uian

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One thing that just occured to me as well is the coordinate systems of maps. Right now we have the player made maps that everybody uses and those who have made the maps have placed a coordinate system on them to simplify finding things. There would need to be a way to incorporate an absolute coordinate system and have it appear on the maps.

-Uian

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Should check next time if there is already an active thread partaining to the subject you wish to discuss lol, can place your own ideas in that one.

On another note...

I realize a lot of you new players are used to actually having an ingame map at your disposal from a lot of other games, but stop trying to add one to this one. There is a perfectly fine map here on the forums for each server, nothing too hard to look at :/

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Should check next time if there is already an active thread partaining to the subject you wish to discuss lol, can place your own ideas in that one.

On another note...

I realize a lot of you new players are used to actually having an ingame map at your disposal from a lot of other games, but stop trying to add one to this one. There is a perfectly fine map here on the forums for each server, nothing too hard to look at :/

I get what your sauing shrimp but look wurmians just discovered papyrus not that long ago and its not really being used as much, dont you think people would eventually start mapping out the area its human nature to want to know your surroundings

i say +1 with some limitations, maps are logical ,why not we have unicorns and magic

let just not make it too easy to do

Edited by shadowblasta
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Should check next time if there is already an active thread partaining to the subject you wish to discuss lol, can place your own ideas in that one.

On another note...

I realize a lot of you new players are used to actually having an ingame map at your disposal from a lot of other games, but stop trying to add one to this one. There is a perfectly fine map here on the forums for each server, nothing too hard to look at :/

We are talking about a crafted map and totally optional, if you don´t like it you don´t use it. :/

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Should check next time if there is already an active thread partaining to the subject you wish to discuss lol, can place your own ideas in that one.

On another note...

I realize a lot of you new players are used to actually having an ingame map at your disposal from a lot of other games, but stop trying to add one to this one. There is a perfectly fine map here on the forums for each server, nothing too hard to look at :/

1. Perhaps I should have checked for another thread. I guess the main reason I started a new one, is because I took the time to work out some of the possible ways of accomplishing this, and my explanation was lengthy.

2. I am not a new player. I've been playing for almost a year and, in fact, I am quite happy with the current maps and am grateful to those who have taken the time to make them. My proposal is an attempt to add to game content. It is not a proposal for an easy in-game radar type map that most games provide. What I described is not easy. Its something you have to work for. This would do several things:

I. It would add to the economy because people could buy and sell maps and map updates. It would increase the market and use of papyrus, ink, etc.

II. It would make it easier for our current map makers who are constantly creating and updating maps for FREE. I could be wrong in this

assumption though. Maybe they enjoy spending lots of time on this. I know Darkmalice puts a lot of effort and creativity into his maps.

III. It would add more content, and "color" to the game. Cartography is a real valid profession in real life. It seems to me that wurm attempts to mirror

real life professions as accurately as is reasonable for a game, and if a cartography skill can be added in a "wurmy" way, it would add more color to

the game.

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The problem I see is that you wouldn't be putting any effort into making the map, just right clicking and waiting as it was generated. This is the same problem in each of the weekly map threads, no effort on the part of the player.

Then we would of course start on the slippery slope with people wanting live maps with a hud and exclamation marks over veins and all the other stuff to ruin game immersion and the unique feel of this wonderful game.

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since people want to have their own version of parallel topics I am not going to bother to respond to this one other than link my post elsewhere. Bottom line is a modern GPS routefinder is not remotely the same thing as a self constructed paper map, you can still get lost and explore when you have paper maps, it is GPS that ruin that.

http://forum.wurmonl..._20#entry734614

Edited by yarnevk

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snapback.pngElen, on 23 January 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

The problem I see is that you wouldn't be putting any effort into making the map, just right clicking and waiting as it was generated. This is the same problem in each of the weekly map threads, no effort on the part of the player.

Then we would of course start on the slippery slope with people wanting live maps with a hud and exclamation marks over veins and all the other stuff to ruin game immersion and the unique feel of this wonderful game.

This is not a valid argument. What if I were to use this argument say for blacksmithing. In real life there is a lot more that goes into blacksmithing than just clicking on menus and waiting for it to make a tool or lamp. In fact, this argument is pretty much invalid for anything in wurm since it is a virtual world where you do virtual things by clicking menus and waiting for actions to complete. Also, what I described WOULD take time and effort, especially for those who have low skill. You have to create the materials and use/combine them just like anything else in the game, and you have to travel around to make the map. It would take as much effort as any other skill in wurm. Perhaps the method I described allows people to make maps too fast or cover a wider area too easily, or maybe there is a different way to accomplish it. Or maybe my idea can be tweaked. But I would not say that it is easy and requires no effort.

Edited by uian

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snapback.pngElen, on 23 January 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

The problem I see is that you wouldn't be putting any effort into making the map, just right clicking and waiting as it was generated. This is the same problem in each of the weekly map threads, no effort on the part of the player.

Then we would of course start on the slippery slope with people wanting live maps with a hud and exclamation marks over veins and all the other stuff to ruin game immersion and the unique feel of this wonderful game.

Making papyrus = not easy

Making ink = very difficult to procure ingredients

Cartography as a skill = No skill in Wurm is easy, yes some are easier than others but all require time and effort. For instance Carpentry is easy but 90+ skill carpenters are a rarity because most will not put the effort to get past 70 and that is an 'everyday' skill with mats that are easy to get.

Again we are not talking about an in-game GPS but a map such as were made before even the written language was invented. Chilldren playing in sandboxes draw maps so why shouldn't adults playing a sandbox MMO. ;)

PS: That last post you all linked your responses from was very amateur with no thought put in to how it would work; read this post before dismissing it 'out of hand'.

Edited by Bachus

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90 skill gets live maps

No 'live maps'. Ink does not move. :P

We are talking about a map a 12th cetury Viking would have been able to draw, not a wizard from LOTR or a modern satelite GPS. :rolleyes:

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No 'live maps'. Ink does not move. :P

We are talking about a map a 12th cetury Viking would have been able to draw, not a wizard from LOTR or a modern satelite GPS. :rolleyes:

sure ink doesnt move, but swords dont burn and freeze either,and trolls dont exist, and mailboxes dont work by spirits.

Should i continue?

i say make the map mark your location when enchanted, but the refresh rate depend on the ql of the map and the enchantment magnetute, larger higher ql maps take longer but higher enchantment speed it up

no marking on map when not enchanted

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I like the idea about maps, as I think, wurm needs maps and such a game shouldn't rely forever on it's community to have them. Those players will maybe stop playing somewhen...soo....

I think it's alo needed to fit it properly into the game world(sadly I can't find my old thread) but using reed and pens was one idea.

other ideas were:

-increased details when getting better skill at cartography

-instead of only one skill affecting the map "build" it could be more added: fine paper, dyes, some sort of measuring instruments etc.(some of them are already ingame)

-player wont be on the map at all (no gps)

-for pvp areas: maps cant be traded between kingdoms!

-size of map should be skillbased too (similar to how carpentry affects size of houseplans)

-long action timer and difficult to skill (like meditating)

-maps can only map a certain radius around you, the larger the map, the longer it takes and maybe the edges are less detailed (it would be nice to add code that would prevent people from spying behind walls except they are on the deeds list)

-maps can decay!

-maps can be sold too

-if you want a map of your whole server you need to actually explore (it takes alot of time!) and maybe make alot of small maps with lower skill

-maps dont "update" themselves, you need to revisit places to map changes

-decide if you want an overland map (no details from deeds) or a local map

will add more if I remember more :P

im confused which thread to use now^^"

but yeah i wouldnt want GPS but a simple map that people would draw in real life too ;) just imagine running around in your rl hometown and draw a map from it? how does it look like?

i also wouldnt mind something like the wurmplanner integrated into the game ;)

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im confused which thread to use now^^"

but yeah i wouldnt want GPS but a simple map that people would draw in real life too ;) just imagine running around in your rl hometown and draw a map from it? how does it look like?

i also wouldnt mind something like the wurmplanner integrated into the game ;)

Miretta,

Sorry about the extra thread. I didn't realize the other one existed when I started this one so now I'm having to keep up with both lol. I like several of the ideas you put here.

-Uian

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No 'live maps'. Ink does not move. :P

We are talking about a map a 12th cetury Viking would have been able to draw, not a wizard from LOTR or a modern satelite GPS. :rolleyes:

Samthewithwiki, this argument for not having "GPS" style maps is not valid in the world of wurm where we have priests that do magic like a wizard from LOTR. However, I tend to agree with you folks that don't like live maps. I cringe from them myself. I did put a possiblility in my explanation, however, of making it so very high level priests might be able to enchant maps. If this was added, I think it should be VERY difficult and such maps would be very rare. Or maybe priests couldn't do enchantments like this and such a map would be created when a rare map is created. This might be a better way to do it. Then it would be random and rare and these maps would be very valuable. But, yeah, if this feature was not added at all, I would be fine with it.

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sure ink doesnt move, but swords dont burn and freeze either,and trolls dont exist, and mailboxes dont work by spirits.

Should i continue?

i say make the map mark your location when enchanted, but the refresh rate depend on the ql of the map and the enchantment magnetute, larger higher ql maps take longer but higher enchantment speed it up

no marking on map when not enchanted

Samthewithwiki, this argument for not having "GPS" style maps is not valid in the world of wurm where we have priests that do magic like a wizard from LOTR. However, I tend to agree with you folks that don't like live maps. I cringe from them myself. I did put a possiblility in my explanation, however, of making it so very high level priests might be able to enchant maps. If this was added, I think it should be VERY difficult and such maps would be very rare. Or maybe priests couldn't do enchantments like this and such a map would be created when a rare map is created. This might be a better way to do it. Then it would be random and rare and these maps would be very valuable. But, yeah, if this feature was not added at all, I would be fine with it.

My reply was in response to someone who suggested live maps at 90 skill/ql level.

Enchanted maps would be different as they would require even more work and another possibility of failure/ destruction of the map.

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