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Archaegeo

Perspective From The New: Economy Suffers From Little Decay

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This has zero to do with making silver. I wouldnt care if you removed silver from the game.

This has to do with being able to create products others want in the area you like to work in.

Will anyone buy QL 20 tool on an established server? never. Much less a bunch of QL 10 pegs or other subcomponents.

This isnt about silver, the whole system could be trade and barter, its about the new player having an avenue to improve themselves without needed to work as a slave for weeks first to grind up skills.

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This has zero to do with making silver. I wouldnt care if you removed silver from the game.

This has to do with being able to create products others want in the area you like to work in.

Will anyone buy QL 20 tool on an established server? never. Much less a bunch of QL 10 pegs or other subcomponents.

This isnt about silver, the whole system could be trade and barter, its about the new player having an avenue to improve themselves without needed to work as a slave for weeks first to grind up skills.

So you want increased skillgain?

Every single one of us has gone through that stage where we had to grind hard to get started into the game

why should you be allowed to do everything faster then we did?

Nobody forces you to work as a slave, i bought premium and silver from the shop, got some CoC tools and went at it, it's your own choice not ours.

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Will anyone buy QL 20 tool on an established server? never. Much less a bunch of QL 10 pegs or other subcomponents.

Do you know why? Because no one wants to rely on other players for things they can accomplish on their own. That isn't something that decay rate or skill penalties can change.

Secondly, the price you pay for any item or service (either with silver or through barter) essentially represents the value of another player's time. When you buy an 80QL item from a player the price partially reflects the time it would take you to grind that skill to 80 and gather the resources to make the same item. 20QL tools have little value because they don't represent a significant time investment for any player.

Edited by EliasTheCrimson
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The first thing to point out is the economy is purely the amount of silver coins players have invested in the game that money sinks have not yet drained out. That defines how big or little the economy is and this means unlike a lot of games its relatively fixed, no everlasting inflation.

What was really being asked for here is a means of keeping the money in that economy on the move.

With a fixed economy and an ever increasing injection of fresh goods then you'll eventually see the coin flowing to a relatively small number of high end producers and the value of goods being reduced regardless as supply swamps demand.

The suggestion of using decay to reduce supply and increase demand is logical but unfortunately its also a total PITA. Been there, hated it a lot.

There is also another path that can be taken, Rolf could introduce the concept of an item having brittleness and thus a fixed lifetime. You can repair/imp an item as many times as you want, thats maintenance. Using the item increases the brittleness, above a certain value and the item shatters. Whether items all start with the same fixed brittleness or different materials can have an impact would be something for Rolf to decide but the idea gets away from annoying decay and defines an items life by how much its used.

Personally I don't like it much because I still see most of the trade going to the high end craftsmen but it is an alternative method. Can anyone else think of a better one?

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Nod, thats still decay Gaeron, and could do it that way or by letting the max QL lower each time its repaired at some reasonable rate.

But the point remains there are WAY too many ways to completely avoid decay in this game.

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Nod, thats still decay Gaeron, and could do it that way or by letting the max QL lower each time its repaired at some reasonable rate.

But the point remains there are WAY too many ways to completely avoid decay in this game.

The point remains, you are trying to ruin many peopls wurm experience. If you want it changed, make a suggestion topic, because this is not the right sub forum. Edited by KaiH
moderation edit

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This has zero to do with making silver. I wouldnt care if you removed silver from the game.

This has to do with being able to create products others want in the area you like to work in.

Will anyone buy QL 20 tool on an established server? never. Much less a bunch of QL 10 pegs or other subcomponents.

This isnt about silver, the whole system could be trade and barter, its about the new player having an avenue to improve themselves without needed to work as a slave for weeks first to grind up skills.

If it has nothing to do with making silver, but rather getting to high skills then it's faster to NOT sell/trade anything. It will go up faster constantly working on the same few components rather than having to create new ones all the time and imp them up to a level that they're actually providing good gain.

If it's not about high skills, but feeling like they're a useful part of the community... well... that's already been discussed, you don't need high skils to provide wanted services.

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Hordem,

Thanks for weighing in, but the only services newbies really provide right now is digging/mining/grunt work.

Maybe that is as it should be, but it doesnt solve the problem that between:

Bulk Storage Bins

Food Storage Bins

"Gift Wrapping"

Merchants

Alts

Items able to forever improve in QL (to 100) no matter base materials or number of times repaired

The only way something leaves the system right now is if someone wants to sacrifice it for favor/deed bonus. That does NOT promote a strong trade/crafting economy.

It does promote people buying things once and never needing to replace it

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Things get replaced all the time enchants wear off and they need to be replaced no matter how good the ql of the item is. If you only use unenchanted tools then yea this might be true but most players use enchanted ones and they do decay with use and need replaced.

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the only services newbies really provide right now is digging/mining/grunt work.

Maybe that is as it should be, but it doesnt solve the problem that [...] The only way something leaves the system right now is if someone wants to sacrifice it for favor/deed bonus. That does NOT promote a strong trade/crafting economy.

It does promote people buying things once and never needing to replace it

I bet you'd love it when your car breaks down after a year and you'd have to buy the newest model just because some cheap chinese carmaker does not sell enough in the big markets?

It is not a problem if items last for a very long time. It appears as a problem to you because you seem to have missed you opportunity to sell a few things. But no matter what, you would not be able to participate in the sales from an increased decay so the problem you see would not even be fixed by your proprosed nerfs. Therefore the whole nerf is useless.

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It does promote people buying things once and never needing to replace it

Why do you keep ignoring the fact that items decay heavily by use?

BSB/FSB removes 5% of all items stored inside every month which is quite a lot.

If storing items were a problem Rolf wouldn't allow the sale of magic chests from traders, combined with artifact items like fountain backpacks that allows storing millions of items inside a small magic chest.

Also I know of several people who buy bulk quantities of low tools/weapons/armours in order to improve them up or enchant them for resale.

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Hordem,

Thanks for weighing in, but the only services newbies really provide right now is digging/mining/grunt work.

Maybe that is as it should be, but it doesnt solve the problem that between:

Items able to forever improve in QL (to 100) no matter base materials or number of times repaired

The only way something leaves the system right now is if someone wants to sacrifice it for favor/deed bonus. That does NOT promote a strong trade/crafting economy.

It does promote people buying things once and never needing to replace it

Oddly enough the 4 80ql shovels with high woa and coc enchants on them I have purchased, seem to have magically been worn down to 30ql. Contradicts the never decay thing huh.

So the options are Reimping them, getting the enchants reapplied since they are no where near the previous high level or I will just buy another 80ql shovel and go about digging another 100k of dirt. At 95 skill, I seem to go through shovels pretty fast.

Nothing wrong with the current market system. They only people that will never have to replace an items are those that DONT USE IT. Your insinuation is that everything should be rotting all the time every day to provide a niche for lower skilled crafters. This is directly counterintuitive.

The amount of damage an item takes is directly related to the QL. So your 20ql nich market tool will take too much damage and be considered absolute trash rather than good for new players, where as the 70ql to 90 ql will be the most sought after items.

This increase the decay "soapbox" your on, is just your attempt to undermine a long lasting game. The amount of maintenance a deed already requires is sufficent for casual players to maintain a deed. More painful for those that dont want a deed.

Make money the way alot of us did it, dig, make planks, make bricks, make mortar, make bulk nails, fence bars. With the new changes in 1.0, all of these are in high demand. Or you can just farm crops and sell off 1k units of stuff for 1 silver. Nothing was easy at the start and only time makes it easier.

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Nothing wrong with the current market system.

Dosn't mean it can't be improved to the benefit of most and without large detrimental effects to others.

Your insinuation is that everything should be rotting all the time every day to provide a niche for lower skilled crafters. This is directly counterintuitive.

But lower skilled crafters do need a hand and not by doing items in bulk, which should be one of a number of options for low skilled crafters to make money (let me assure you having spent the last 3 days making 1k bricks and 2k mortar with skills in the early 20's only the strong survive).

For me the solution seems simple, mainly because i don't have to code it.

[conjecture]

Why do we pay deed upkeep ... to the landlord, i don't think so, to maintain the deed, this seems more likely.

How do we pay deed upkeep .. with silver, what does silver maintain? Nothing, but it allows the deed to buy the stuff to maintain the deed.

[/conjecture]

If the above is true then why not cut out the middle man? Instead of paying in silver pay in basic manufactured goods, planks, bricks, mortar and nails.

This approach does come with a major problems however, it assumes a constant almost fixed price for those goods, what that notional fixed price should be is of course a matter for much debate.

Secondly, and this is just a personal wish, which basic manufactured goods you require should be based on the buildings and fences on the deed.

So in a nutshell, instead of paying my 1 silver for my upkeep i pay the equivalent of 1 silver in manufactured goods, planks, bricks etc etc.

This allows the self-sustainers to self-sustain, the only impact it MAY have is to increase the amount of time it takes to pay the upkeep, instead of selling one high priced item and putting the money in the token, they have to produce the goods and put it in the token.

Players with massive deeds and massive upkeep costs will still buy the items they need in bulk.

Everyone else can either buy/build or a mixture of both the goods they need, in the much smaller amounts required thus, hopefully (because there is nothing certain in economics) creating a market for smaller ammounts of goods which lower skilled players can supply without going insane making bricks in a mine for days on end.

Does this sound like an improvement or did i miss a glaring obvious problem that my 1 week in game missed?

Problem One, Potential reduction of Silver sales via Wurm Shop .... this assumes that the majority of silver sales through the store are purely for deed upkeep and that a significant number of those people who buy silver, so they don't have to spend all day crafting, will suddenly become ardent crafters.

Edited by Ratlin

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I may have missed it in the thread, but... Why exactly do new (or arguably, any) players even need money in Wurm? I wonder sometimes if folks are carrying their sensibilities from other MMOs into Wurm, and not quite seeing that it works very differently here. Everything you might need in Wurm, you can create on your own. Having others create things beyond your skill level or interest is a luxury or a convenience, rather than a necessity.

Deeds - while a wise investment - are not a necessity.

Premium time - also a wise investment - is not a necessity.

I'm sorry if it seems a bit harsh, but all this sounds like to me is people wanting to get everything for nothing. Wurm is a business and a product, not a charity. If you like it, pay for it. If you like it but you're broke, play as a free player and pay as you can.... or don't - Wurm lets you play for free as long as you want to! If you just can't be happy making do with what you've got, pony up the €10 and shoosh.

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the main problem you missed is that the deed upkeep is also a money sink designed to take silver out of the economy, causing players to buy more, which is the real moneymaker for the game, allowing rolf to pay for little things like the servers, the hosting, bandwidth, employees, utility bills, oh, and his own personal expenses so he can work full time on the game.

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the main problem you missed is that the deed upkeep is also a money sink designed to take silver out of the economy, causing players to buy more, which is the real moneymaker for the game, allowing rolf to pay for little things like the servers, the hosting, bandwidth, employees, utility bills, oh, and his own personal expenses so he can work full time on the game.

Not exactly, but yes.

While i suspect that most silver purchases are for easy deed upkeep, and we will never know because why the heck should rolf provide us with his revenue figures, and those people would in the vast majority continue to buy gold, to buy the goods to pay their upkeep (which isn't anywhere as easy as just buying silver and putting it in the token).

The real problem would be the newly created "rich middle classes" sort of speak, what would these low-mid level skilled crafters spend their ill gotten gains hard earned profits on ..... yes an alternative money sink would be required to drain silver out of the economy. NO clue what that would or could be.

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It seems to me that the OP has been around for too short a time to see the negative impact of the current decay system upon Wurm and playerbase retention. The decay system is the bane of Wurms existence and actually the opposite of the OP's viewpoint should be put into effect, which would be to lessen the decay effects for premium players and expand the lessening decay effects available to deed owners for items upon their deeds. It is always best to encourage income producing aspects (for game creator) of the game in the form of deeds by attaching new benifits to them.

As for the OP's stay upon the P&R servers, just recently are the ugly aspects of decay rearing their heads in the form of abandonded houses, fencing and items as those players who have realized that, gee this game (or these servers) is not for me, have simply left with no further concern given to these former creations of theirs. To have these items of inactive players coded to decay away at an advanced rate is not a bad thing and would be the only sidebar of the OP's concept that I would endorse. Otherwise it is a shallow suggestion from one who seems not to have had a long term relationship with the Wurm decay mechanics and their negative impact upon gameplay. Pointless really to go on further into the subject as the results are obvious, as has been pointed out by numerious others already in this thread.

=Ayes=

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In this thread, and correct me if i am wrong, i have counted a few people that want to see this changed.

First is the post creator, which as as i can read, everyone thinks is a bad idea. And simply hasnt played the game for long enough

Second is protunia, who is always against the community so that doesn't matter (Yea not always, but many times :D, you have good ones .. sometimes!) Added this because i was afraid of the Society Ayes is starting :)

Probably someone else but whatever..

Rolf said in amsterdam, why change something that nobody will like?

And that question is very true, why would he? To ruin the game?

Well, your idea, is one that nobody will like judging by this topic.

Why change something that isn't broken?

Edited by whykillme

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Second is protunia, who is always against the community so that doesn't matter

Ahh, poor Protunia, always the convenient scapegoat. Protunia comes up with some viable ideas at times, so I see no justification to labeling them as "always against the community". Stop kicking this old (probably young though) dog out of frustration, eh.

(Sponsored by The Protection of Protunia From Abuse Society)

=Ayes=

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There wouldn't be any market if decay was higher, because nobody would bother having anything.

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I'll answer this first:

Hordem,

Thanks for weighing in, but the only services newbies really provide right now is digging/mining/grunt work.

Maybe that is as it should be, but it doesnt solve the problem that between:

Bulk Storage Bins

Food Storage Bins

"Gift Wrapping"

Merchants

Alts

Items able to forever improve in QL (to 100) no matter base materials or number of times repaired

The only way something leaves the system right now is if someone wants to sacrifice it for favor/deed bonus. That does NOT promote a strong trade/crafting economy.

It does promote people buying things once and never needing to replace it

BSBs FSBs:

Their contents are subject to 5% decay per month atm. If they didn't exist at all it would be really difficult for a newbie to be able to get some cash by selling bulk goods(and it would be impossible for him to sell corn or any goods that you get by using your farming skill as they would rot before you would have enough of them to make someone willing to travel buy them and pick them up). I also got a good amount of silver by selling crops even before I reached 50 farming. If BSBs FSBs were not there it would be impossible to do that. You would also have to search several item piles to find the one that has the pegs or the mortar for examle.

There would also be serious performance issues if people couldn't or wouldn't like to use them. Someone who would have to build ships or a big building he would have so many piles around him that his computer would have a problem handling all these item piles around him. The servers would also have to deal with thousands of extra items instead of 1 "big" BSB item making the lag terrible for everyone.

"Gift wrapping"

Alts

If you try to say that there should be decay even in player inventories then I can only tell you this: 70+ql pelts only for those who have really high butchering skill, newbies would have serious problems getting and keeping one as their FS and butchering skill doesn't help them get enough and good pelts. If low ql pelts had some value newbies would have tough time to sell any (if they even were able to keep one long enough) as everyone would do the same (if I get a <80ql pelt I just sacrifice it now, if I could sell them I wouldn't ask for much at all as they would be "junk" for me). You would also have to imp your tools every few days too...

Not all alts are mule-storage alts (there are priests for exaple or alts that you may use to take care of your village when you are in another server) so it would be difficult for rolf to find a way to add decay only on few inventories to combat alt-storage if he decided to do so.

Merchants:

If there was decay on items that are in their inventories no one would use them to sell items to other players. The player made marketplaces would cease to exist and you wouldn't be able to do 1 or 2 trips, whenever you want, see what there is up for sale, compare prices and buy what is the best for you. Instead you would have to find people with the right skills who would have the items that you want in stock and then either pay 10c or even more for mailing fees (and still not all items can be mailed) or visit them and wait for them to login again if they are not online.

Items able to forever improve in QL (to 100) no matter base materials or number of times repaired:

Even if I could reimp it to 10 instead of 90 that wouldn't make me buy a 20-30ql tool, I would still look for a 90ql tool. Most people told you that any of these changes wouldn't increase the demand for low ql tools and I agree with them.

Even IF such a change could increase the demand for such tools, newbies wouldn't profit from that. Why? Just have a look at the following numbers:

ql of oakenwood spindle, every number is the number that I get after 1 action of improving, 0 failures:

17.35 <--initial ql of spindle made with a 1ql carving knife from 80ql log (I could use a 40ql one but I couldn't find any :P)

20.22

23.80

26.75

28.93

30.64

So it's 2 actions for me to make a 20ql spindle and 6 to make a 30ql one. If you want you can add 1-2 more for the materials that I had to use.

If the demand for such tools was high, a skilled player would still be able to make them much faster than a newbie. The potential customers wouldn't probably want to wait for the newbie to make one(storing one wouldn't be an option due to high decay and the effort to reimp it if he decides to ignore the decay) and they would go to a player with higher skills who could make one in a few minutes (or he could even have some highly decayed one that he could imp back to 20 after just 1 action). Even if a customer wanted to wait, the skilled player could offer almost "bulk-prices" for these tools as it would be really easy for him to make them. Would the newbie be able to compete? I think not, he could make bricks for a few minutes and get more money than he would be able to get by making 20ql tools for hours.

Personal experience on high-decay:

I have also been in GV before it became the tutorial server. It had 3x the normal decay, all skills capped at 20 (non-premiums only) and if I remember right there was decay even for tools in your inventory. Making high ql materials for fences was too difficult with low ql tools and using low ql materials would backfire as you would have to repair them much more frequently. For the same reason it was difficult to get 20ql lumps and keep my tools to 20+ql. The time spent on maintainance was so high that I left the game in 2-3 weeks just because of the decay. The reason why I am still here is because when I returned I started in freedom with normal decay and no decay in inventory for most things. After I saw that I could maintain my place as a froob (even if I couldn't ride cows as I could in GV :( ) I got premium, got my skills up and I can either sell logs, crops or even some types of tools. If similar decay rules came in effect in freedom the newbies would simply end up making planks, mining rocks just to do repairs (and they wouldn't get a single copper for doing so) or just lose whatever they built.

1 extra reason why extra decay (at least for the items that are not being used) wouldn't be an option:

It would make it difficult to keep pvp-grade gear stored in armories:

Did you get killed and lost your equipment while there are enemies near your place? So you will have to take the gear that you made a few weeks ago and it has lost much of its quality due to increased decay or spend time imping it or making a new one. Would your enemies wait for you? Obviously not.

Are you an archer? You spent 1 hour to improve a few arrows? Too bad due to decay and lack of BSBs they have such low ql now that they will break on your enemy's armor. Are there enemies who have planned a raid and made their arrows in time but you have only the stored arrows? If you didn't spend time improving all your arrows every few days you would have to accept that your enemies are going to have a significant advantage in ranged combat (simply because the attacker is the one who decides when to attack).

TLDR Version: What I keep saying is that the extra decay would not increase the demand/prices for 20-30ql goods. Even if it did the extra decay would be bad especially for the newbies and that the removal of some anti-decay features may be difficult for technical reasons in my opinion. To see why, read the full wall of text before posting an answer :P.

If you don't like bricks/dirt and similar stuff there are still more options:

1. Take your horse and hunt for meat, get fs and butchering skill, sell the meat.

2. If you have land you can grind farming skill and sell the crops(be careful though as there are only a few types of crops that can be sold at low ql)

3. You can make frying/sauce pans at 20-30ql in bulk and sell them to priests who want to grind their soul depth (be careful though as the prices will be similar to those of bulk goods for the reason that I told you earlier. The good news is that you can get some blacksmithing skill this way).

4. You can also make low ql tools in bulk for priests who want to make skiller tools (although they rarely buy them, they usually make them by themselves or use an alt).

5. If you like sailing/travelling you can get a ship and start doing deliveries of bulk goods or items that cannot be mailed. The only skill that you would need would be some mind logic, rl patience and some silver to buy the items from the seller and sell them to the buyer at the agreed price (the difference would be the fees for your services).

6. Wurm is a sandbox game with a player driven economy. There can be several ways to get involved in the ingame economy, ways that no one else may have even thinked of before.

Edited by Anothernoob
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when you actually have more than a few low ql tools and a 1x1 shack you will understand why this is such a terrible idea and one that would destroy the game.

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i cant believe this topic is still here. have Occupy Wallstreet hippies invaded wurm? what ever happened to working and using your head to advance yourself?

newbs want to sell 20QL tools? good luck. that tool is NEVER going to be useful to anyone but the creator. i can take a 20ql shovel to 1 ql or broken in the matter of an hour, or less. THIS is why there is no market for them unless you give them away.

if you want to be a tool maker, build you about 5 forges, get a mining alt or villager/slave with high mining skill to keep your forges filled with iron, and fire up the sleep bonus. you'll be 30 BS before you know it, and able to turn out 40 ql tools. a bit more work and you can hit 40-45 BS and be cranking out 50+ ql items that have a limited market if priced right.

ive never understood why newbs have to come into an already established game and stir up bull about mechanics that have been established for many years and work just fine.

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3. You can make frying/sauce pans at 20-30ql in bulk and sell them to priests who want to grind their soul depth (be careful though as the prices will be similar to those of bulk goods for the reason that I told you earlier. The good news is that you can get some blacksmithing skill this way).

Just out of it being related to this topic, this is not really an option. Pans are hard to store as they have solid volume and lots of weight. At 20-30ql pans also decay pretty bad... even though OP wants more decay, I just had to point out that due to current decay rate this proposed option is not good. (atleast I wouldnt buy bulk pans of such a low quality, I would require atleast some level of longevity).

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*hugs smelting pot* smiths recycler... i dont see a valid argument in this thread for decay, if its not about selling recycle, if its about silver, i know alot of people (vyn priests) that use tools around 20ql to make a grinding tools :D i have a few myself and i have sold a few low ql tools also

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