Perspective From The New: Economy Suffers From Little Decay

[Hordern 2,177]

My point was that by increasing decay on things, you would take away this market that is currently there. Also, you can see my points as to why I believe it wouldn't benefit low level crafters in the slightest a couple of posts above yours.

[Iulianx 90]

@Fattox, I do not support raw materials decaying faster, this would have no logic, I also do not encourage the increase of decay on items at all, I think a working economy should have tools that need replacing at some point, making a new axe consumes more raw materials than re-imping one.

[Vroomfondel 1,128]

-1 to the OP. You weren't here when there was the decay you mention, so you have no idea how much of a drag it actually was on the economy. It wouldn't be just tools decaying, it would be EVERYTHING, including the raw materials to make tools. In the case of BSBs and FSBs, it would mean regularly losing some every week till it decays away. I've been there and don't want to go back. Decay was removed for a reason.

Imping to a high takes quite a lot if iron, much much more than creating them. Tools still wear down, in fact they will decay just sitting in a container, and many often forget to watch their tool and break it. And players lose tools all the time. I've been playing for years and lost a tool just last week. There will always be reasons to buy another/better/spare tool or to pay to get your tool imped. Don't see how that hurts the economy, it just means you need to become a very good smith to make money, which is how it is intended.

[Vroomfondel 1,128]

As to the points made about new players having a hard time getting into the markets, yes it is. You have to get really good skills to make decent coins ingame. As I said before, that is as intended. You should expect to have to have decent skills to compete in the markets. I joined this game in 2008 and I was behind everyone then, it's taken me a long time to be able to compete in the markets, and I still have a way to go. That is what drew me into this game, having to get better than the rest to compete, don't go making that any easier, or you lose the attraction to the game.

[ReaverKane 363]

The prespective of a newbie character using low-ish ql tools, without much worry about ql isn't really the most correct.

When you get to high 70's and up, you'll notice that without prime ql tools you'll take ages to improve items. Then there's the sheer number that is created to sell or just for the skilling. All those things wear out not only at your tools (in a stage that losing 5 ql might mean you'll want to re-imp -or buy a new one) but at the enchants that usually are procured with high ql tools. Of course you'd see less of this on the pristine servers, since the demand for really high ql tools and enchants can't be at any level even close to what you see on the connected freedom cluster, where anything below ql 50 isn't even considered marketable.

I disagree completely with this.

New players have to spend way more time wasted doing bricks than a skilled player.

Not only that they get very little skill at all making these bricks, planks, etc. compared to if they would have spent the same 1000-2000+ actions skilling up to make items.....which we have too many of and many never decay at all.

The economy of making bricks is there because people use them up much faster unlike items, and you can argue this, which sit by the thousands and easily made. I can go to one of my traders right now and find many 40-50-60 even 70 QL items sitting there that never go away and have been there forever.

Saying New people can make money wasting time doing jobs that give little skill because the people who can do them 5x faster don't want too does not mean it is lucrative to them. It means that is the only market they have to make any kind of silver at all for the most part. And at a cost of slowing the development of their character to catch up to the 70-90 QL market.

Now if making bricks, planks, etc gave experience like making items and imping them then I wouldn't say anything, because at least its a fair exchange, but the way skilling is set up making those types of items for new players keeps them more like slaves into the only market they really have as an option left.

Just like lately with slate and marble some new players found these items and the older players whined to take them away because they were trying to make more coin off the new resource then they wanted to pay and thought they deserve.

This economy is broken for lower level players period and keeps them slaving away for hours for less coin and less skill. Basically keeping them at the bottom longer.

So basically, you want no market for new players?

If high decay is introduced, then high lvl players would do stuff by themselves, since buying in bulk would be useless.

No one would want a single tool made by a low lvl player, because as we know lower ql items decay faster... Which means that in a short period ALL low lvl players, and specially free players, would quit because they would be spending more time making tools to do anything than doing money in-game.

I made over 1 gold filling frying pans with a alt character while playing my main. The alt gained 0 skill, true... But i gained way more than 1 gold. I find it was a good trade.

As with anything in the world, someone just starting at a job will always earn less, and have to work more, its the perks of experience and seniority. If you have a problem with this, i'd suggest finding yourself a spaceship, or a bridge, cause you'll have trouble with the real world.

Edited January 21, 2013 by ReaverKane

[Tpikol 1,057]

i came back to the game about a year ago now,with a new account and made like 50 silver in 2 months sellling support beams,thousands and thousands of dirt and hundreds of floorboards.

so no its just not true that u need to have 70 plus skill to make money.i got my carpentry skill to 70 making floorboards and getting paid for it.

right now on celebration i see everyday people trying to buy bricks,mortar and other stuff that dont seem to find anybody selling it.

[Hordern 2,177]

Then there's the sheer number that is created to sell or just for the skilling.

A quick note here - skillgain was tweaked recently so that theoretically the optimum level to be skilling at, should be where the item is at a QL where repairing, failing and imping keep it at approx the same level, so you should no longer need hundreds of items to skill effectively.

NB, I don't believe this has been extensively tested and document since the change (a month or so ago).

[Garis 210]

The reason players don't buy more tools is the same reason millionaires don't buy more mansions, they already have one. And if they're going to buy another it's because it does something the previous one didn't do.

Don't get discouraged! It seems like you need to better understand who your potential customers are.

I buy tools all the time. And weapons, and armor. In the last year I have utterly destroyed at least a dozen q80 shovels, and that's just shovels. By this I mean I wore them down to less than q10 and recycled them. Can't tell you how many hatchets and picks I've burned through, or chisels (dear god, the chisels).

The people who actually need and use tools aren't going to buy discount q30 iron tools that an aspiring blacksmith made, they're going to buy top-of-the-line rare, steel, and enchanted tools made by expert smiths who have absolutely devoted themselves to their craft. Or (as is often the case), they're going to make their own tools because they can't find a reliable supplier with reasonable prices.

I generally separate out my tools into three categories:

1. Artisan Tools: These tools are capable of either gathering or fashioning top quality crafted wares. This includes shovels, picks, hatchets for getting top quality sand, clay, lumber, and ore. It also obviously includes top shelf crafting tools I use to push the quality of my own crafted items.
   
2. Journeyman Tools: I use tools in this category to get a job done, and preferably at a good pace. Usually these tools are q30-60. I use them to imp low-median quality wares, and I sometimes used highly damaged tools to speed up skill gain. If I have an artisan grade tool that I've worn down to q60, and it has CoC but not WoA, I skip this category and use the sunder spell to drop its quality down to around q10 or q15.
   
3. Apprentice Tools: Intentionally low quality (q5-15) tools for digging, gathering wood, or mining. I prefer these to be enchanted with CoC but not WoA, and I also prefer them to be made out of steel. The benefit of low quality tools is that they get damaged very quickly, which can increase your failure rate while mining, digging, or chopping trees. This in turn speeds up your skill gain at the cost of material quality. They also lengthen your action timers, which at very high skill levels can help considerably in your skillgain.
   

Actually, I'm in the market for a new shovel. q80 or better, preferably 80+ enchants, but I can live without them. I whittled my last one down to q50 and now it's not well suited for for digging construction-grade clay and sand, so I'm going to sunder it down to q15 or so and use it as a skiller until the magic wears out.

[juliarq123 4]

ive been playing this game now for 2 weeks and i see flawed arguement with increased decay.

1. increased decay as im still new to game would really annoy me with all the ahrd work i have done to make my home .

2. as new player i would never expect to comtete with top players with tools etc.

3. i dont have the time nor the monies to keep fixing decayed items nor going to a trader to buy a new tool. and i do prefer make my own anyways unless i want one making (luckily im in town where smithy makes them for me )

4. i made coin in this game 5 silver for 1000 mortar boring but i got money.

5. more decay would actually drive me away from the game as i play it for fun not a chore.

in conclusion bleating on how new players get beat down in the economy game of wurm is a flawed arguement. There is many ways making money. Perosnally i dont need ue traders anymore im settled and have everything i need so dont ned buy anything. im in a very good alliance where we help one another even new players can help without any money ever being exchanged.

forgot to mention also ima single mother and cant afford to stump loads money in this game i barely able pay for the premuim and my deed.

Edited January 21, 2013 by juliarq123

[Archaegeo 136]

But how much fun is it that the only way for you to make cash is a tedious grinding of dirt/bricks/planks?

How does such a game attract new players?

I am CERTAINLY not saying make the game easy mode. I like the struggle and the effort.

But the way it is now, there is no outlet for the new players subcomponents, etc. Only for grind work. Thats not an economy

[meiyeeer 78]

A good way for newbies to make money while gaining skill: hunting. I'm not sure how valid this is on other servers, but I did it on chaos: there were deer, cows, horses everywhere, and I would just kill them and drop the meat into a cart.

[Cise 8]

Actually, if people remember correctly, before BsBs, items didn't really decay unless they were super raw materials. Anything outside of fresh logs/rocks/ore would last forever. I remember leaving bricks in my mines for weeks before I ever got around to using them and iron lumps could sit in a forge forever also. Fast decaying didn't come around till right before BsBs hit. So if you're using them as an excuse for bad economy, I'm not sure what to tell you because it's always been this way except you used to let things sit in 100 piles in your mines instead of in your BsBs.

[ago 470]

But how much fun is it that the only way for you to make cash is a tedious grinding of dirt/bricks/planks?

How does such a game attract new players?

I am CERTAINLY not saying make the game easy mode. I like the struggle and the effort.

But the way it is now, there is no outlet for the new players subcomponents, etc. Only for grind work. Thats not an economy

Lets put this into perspective. The new player is kind of like the teenager that has no skills and can earn money by doing the tasks the adults have no interest in. Like mowing the lawn, or babysitting and the like. When you grow up you can actually gain the skills to produce stuff that is more useful. But it's still not the big company business. This may come later if you're willing to work you ass off to make the money.

It is an illusion if the new player expects to jump right into the "economy" and make the big easy money. But that's not the point of the game either. It is a building and crafting game, not a business simulator.

[Stargrace 603]

But how much fun is it that the only way for you to make cash is a tedious grinding of dirt/bricks/planks?

How does such a game attract new players?

I am CERTAINLY not saying make the game easy mode. I like the struggle and the effort.

But the way it is now, there is no outlet for the new players subcomponents, etc. Only for grind work. Thats not an economy

You get more out of wurm the more time you put into it. This goes for every aspect of the game. I don't understand where the idea that someone who is brand new and has played 2 hours should be making as much as someone who has been playing 3 years.

If you are creative, adaptable, and work at it, you can get as much (or as little) as you want in the way of "economy".

It takes time.

I don't see that going away any time soon, and I wouldn't want to see it go away, it's one of the rare gems of a game that still has that feature.

There are many other ways of making money in-game besides grinding out bulk materials, IF you can offer a WANTED service with little competition. Figuring out what that may be is part of the 'game'. Attracting new players "because you can make money" has never been wurms "thing". It is one aspect that comes EVENTUALLY with time.

[Raybarg 442]

So ignorant, in a working economy, unlike wurm, everyone would have something to sell, labor or items, and guess what! everyone is a seller and everyone benefits from this.

*bursts to laughter.

May I? May I copy that? Just need your permission to use the sentence and change the word "wurm" in it. It fits in so many places with so high troll value!!!

[WesncIsMe 492]

So ignorant, in a working economy, unlike wurm, everyone would have something to sell, labor or items, and guess what! everyone is a seller and everyone benefits from this.

No, just no, for the love of god, no.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgCeblHssyw

Edited January 22, 2013 by WesncIsMe

[LouisC 74]

But how much fun is it that the only way for you to make cash is a tedious grinding of dirt/bricks/planks?

How does such a game attract new players?

I am CERTAINLY not saying make the game easy mode. I like the struggle and the effort.

But the way it is now, there is no outlet for the new players subcomponents, etc. Only for grind work. Thats not an economy

Here we have a 38 day old player thinking they know what is best for Wurm. While your enthusiasm is appreciated your lack of experience here is showing. How does such a game attract new players you ask? You're here aren't you? Something brought you here and keeps you here so far. Why try to make Wurm something it's not? Wurm has been a game that will attract certain types of people. You talking about increased decay is not something the general player base wants. Us longer term players have already had our fair share of high decay, skill decay, fight skill nerfs, and other assorted nonsense. It's not the way to go, it is a backward motion not a forward one. I vote we leave decay as it is because it is already an annoyance enough.

[joedobo 1,187]

I don't think we should force everyone to partake in a play style that benefits a minorty of the population. And yes I'm pretty sure players obsessed with selling stuff are a minority.

I also don't think a lack of decay is the major culprit behind the OP's problem. First off, I don't agree what I'm about to describe is a problem. Wurm has a lot of highly skilled players and the creation system lets higher skill make things faster. Even if we had more decay, the sales would still go to the upper tier crafters. Heck I'd even wager higher decay would cause a lot uproar because it would look like the Devs had implemented changes that help the elite get richer.

I don't think its a problem for two reasons. You don't need game money to play Wurm. And Penalizing everyone so a minority can benefit financially isn't a good plan. I recognize some enjoy selling things and are sad they can't have fun thier way, but I can't think of way that these folks can have fun that isn't at the expense of other players.

[Hussars 511]

Is it about selling things to have fun/find your style enjoyment, or about making enough silver to sell back to players?

The ongoing comments from the OP seems to point more to the latter rather than the former.

What everyone else, including other new players, has said; you can make money in the game if you're willing to put in the effort.

To restate something i said before, in wurm, you're not born a hero, you become one....in this case swap out hero for merchant baron/business executive/etc as you like.

[Stargrace 603]

To restate something i said before, in wurm, you're not born a hero, you become one....in this case swap out hero for merchant baron/business executive/etc as you like.

I find that especially true in Wurm. I don't hunt for whoever is selling the rock bottom prices - I feel like I want to know and have a friendship with a lot of the people I do end up shopping from, and I'm far more inclined to purchase something from them than from someone I just don't know even if it may save me a few copper or if their product is better. Then I continue to use those suppliers because they've already proven themselves to me. If I need jewelry items I know who I'm going to, if I need leather, same thing, if I need something and I have no idea who to get it from the first thing I'm going to do is ask the locals and see who has a good reputation.

Those reputations don't come over night. You need to prove you're a good merchant first. All just a part of the giant "you get out what you put into it" and "it takes time" comments.

[Klaa 4,872]

Behold the Mallet v2.0!

It pounds, it hammers, it bangs, it sangs, it hits!

It even imps itself!!!

[Kuro 41]

I play wurm to build stuff, that is the part i like, Creation.

The economy is not even on my list of interests, except when people want to change things so they can make a little silver. then it annoys me greatly with its petty RMT/micro-transaction nature.

Maintenance and decay is a much larger issue as it take time away from building, so to me an increase in decay would mean less playtime, less play time less fun. Maintenance will be what cause me to quit wurm.

so, to hell with the "economy" and no more decay, my 2c

[Hussars 511]

Ultimately it is up the individual to decide what they like, may not like (but can live with), and don't like and unable to live with. The problem is that, as gamers, we all have different origins and different focus, even when we "like" the same things.

The in-game market is great, the in-game market is broken.

Depending on your own backgrounds and expectations, both of those statements are true. I think we all know this, but just in case anyone suffers from EoN (end of nose) vision, I'll put it back out there.

So looking at the original post/complaints again, is it a suggestion to remove the bulk containers? I'd say no because of the reasons why they were introduced.

Adjust the rate of loss/decay in those containers per upkeep "tick"? Maybe, but would like to see the server logs/numbers on rate of creation vs loss/use before I'd support changing it.

Provide some form of market protection for new players/players under X skill value? Maybe introduce a vendor who only buys goods up to a set quality for say, Y% of the normal "get price".

Or, as a starting player/craftsperson, do what people used to do in real life, become an apprentice. Do the schlup work for another crafter. Build the parts they don't want to make and imp them up to a "usable" level. You get skill gains, and have a "market" for your work until you get enough skill to make items other are willing to buy.

Wurm might be a game, but it does try to give you options on how you want to play. If you want to solo the world, go for it. Just don't expect the world to make it easy for you.

This isn't WoW.

So again I say, in Wurm you're not born a hero, you become one.

[Miretta 1,415]

*cough* not sure if someone mentioned it.....but bsbs and fsbs wont ever vanish from the game, as rolf implemented them also for reduced server "usage", because all those items inside are "generalized" and therefore count as 1 item instead of 50, the one is representing.

[EliasTheCrimson 348]

Let's clear this up properly; BSB's were added for the sole reason of reducing database load by grouping items together so Rolf could turn up the decay of things like crops, shards and wood.

Edited January 22, 2013 by EliasTheCrimson