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Rolf

A Comment On Joining The Pristine/release Servers With The Other Servers

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There is a fundamental flaw in their propaganda, because if it is possible to dominate the cluster, it is even more feasible to dominate a closed-border server!

An entirely flawed argument that ignores that to dominate the closed server they have to go there on an alt and start with 1QL and skill just like everyone else,and there will always be somebody else with as much time and drive as you, and that someone could be someone entirely new.. It is much easier to dominate trade when you come with a merchant ship and high skills and tools having already spent that time elsewhere compared to someone new who has not that advantage.

The border is not closed to you , you as a player can come to Pristine and Release and have every chance to dominate the server trade, what you do not have is the character advantage that a new player does not have. Of course being a noob may be harder than you remember especially without those advantages, but you do have the equal opportunity to try.

Edited by yarnevk

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An entirely flawed argument that ignores that to dominate the closed server they have to go there on an alt and start with 1QL and skill just like everyone else,and there will always be somebody else with as much time and drive as you, and that someone could be someone entirely new.. It is much easier to dominate trade when you come with a merchant ship and high skills and tools having already spent that time elsewhere compared to someone new who has not that advantage.

The border is not closed to you , you as a player can come to Pristine and Release and have every chance to dominate the server trade, what you do not have is the character advantage that a new player does not have. Of course being a noob may be harder than you remember especially without those advantages, but you do have the equal opportunity to try.

Hula_Girl's argument isn't flawed at all, yours on the other hand is. How is it easier to dominate trade with a merchant ship if people on all the other servers can do it too? This means that instead of the limited competition you'd have from people on just 1-2 servers, you now have competition from people on 7+ servers which makes it much harder to dominate, not easier! The more servers are connected up the bigger the market, it will be far to big then for a select few individuals to dominate because each individual only has so much time to actually spend on the game, they can't keep up with demand on their own so they can't get massive market shares. Instead there will be competition between a lot of skilled players, driving prices down so that the majority of Wurm's players can get more for less. So the buyers most definetly benefit from all the PvE servers being connected and a small group of players dominating the market in a big cluster is impossible because they don't have the time to meet the demand of such a big market, even if they only play Wurm and sleep and do nothing else in RL.

On the other hand as Hula_Girl mentioned, it is much easier to dominate a smaller market, especially for experienced players. Experienced players have a huge advantage over new players, even if they all started a new character at the same time as those brand new players. That's because the experienced players know the fastest ways to grind and will often get their skills up much faster than their competition. They also know to get priests for enchants asap so that even if there's some competition, it's not unlikely that if they are new players, that they didn't consider enchants and are far behind with their own priests.

So the people at the top will just mostly be experienced players again, but competition is likely to be much less at the start so the prices will be much higher (just as prices were much higher on the existing servers several years back), resulting in a very good profit early on.

So experienced players can quickly start to dominate in this new market, quickly taking the lead on any new player and only being in competition with other experienced players who can keep up with them since they too know the ins and outs of the game. Almost the entire market of such new servers then falls to those experienced players who invested in new accounts and with enough time they can easily make that investment back (especially with the higher prices they can ask) and generate a profit too.

So the longer you wait with connecting it up, the higher the prices will remain that the majority of the players have to pay in the market, compared to the other Freedom servers. Keeping it closed for several more months thus just results in higher prices and experienced players raking in the profit, while connecting it up sooner results in lower prices and experienced players raking in the profit. The lower prices is clearly a big advantage to most of the players on Pristine and Release, either way the experienced players benefit, but connecting it up sooner benefits the new players just as much while waiting a long time with connecting it up is a big disadvantage only for the new players.

Now to back it up with some examples of current price differences:

New servers:

ql 60 blacksmithing for 45c: http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/72829-thetylerlees-blacksmithing-60ql/

ql 60 blacksmithing for 60c: http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/72037-cruzas-smithing-shop-lamps-chain-and-tools-up-to-65ql/

Old servers:

ql 60 blacksmithing for 15c: http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/70595-nicrolis-60-70-ql-tools-deliverance-only/

ql 60 blacksmithing for 20c: http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/49642-keeperton-craftworks-blacksmith-95-cloth-tailor-enchants-jewelsmith/

Price differences are pretty clear, blacksmithing is one of the biggest markets so it's one of the best possible examples I could be using here. These prices are quite similar to what this stuff went for years ago. One interesting thing to also note is that the linked blacksmithing shops from the new servers are currently the only shops selling ql 60+ stuff and they are both run by experienced players. Similar shops run by new players (at least new forum accounts) only offer up to ql 40 tools. Who would have guessed?

So connecting it up results in more competition, thus lower prices, which is most advantageous to the majority of players on the new servers. Sure it's bad for the 1% that currently has the entire market and can ask very high prices for their goods, but the 99% are getting shafted.

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The same merchant shippers that you claim cannot support a large installed base of servers, are the same ones that desire shipping to be faster, and for BSB and other cargo modifications to be able to hold more so that they can indeed serve the entire servers market in the same amount of time. They are currently only limited by the game mechanics which they are trying to already change even just to support the line of connected freedom servers, while they also insist the new servers not be connected on the NS line but EW line so that their merchant shipping has shorter trade routes. And of course if that does not happen those same merchants are just going to make alt boat captains that do nothing but wait for the winds to blow, while their smith and priest just sit on the home server cranking out the warez. So your entire premise that distance creates lack of time which creates distant competition is false, because it ignores the fact that shipping is trivially easy to do in parallel on an alt.

Yet you argue that if those same shippers could apply their economies of scale and experience to the new servers then prices will be cheaper, giving examples of monopolies by experienced players on new characters, ignoring completely the argument that any experienced player can go import themselves rather than their ships to provide competition. Others chose not to simply because they are not willing to start a new character, because they want to have it easier than that to obtain a new market.

So yes the one or two smiths that chose to painfully reskill without any help are being compensated for doing so, but that is only temporary while the rest of the server catches up to them, and it is not profit it simply takes more time to get there than the same guy on Indy starting an alt smith. It is a self correcting system just as the price of cotton/wemp has declined in the six weeks of the servers life as other people caught up and started getting their farms producing, simple supply vs. demand economics.

Like boat making someone mentioned on the new server it took a team of four to make themselves a corbita in a week and they could get 20s for it. Of course if Indy boat makers could import they could do it faster for less, but then no team of people would ever even bother to spend a week trying to make their village corbita, your proposal does not create new merchants despite claims the servers are so far apart that it would. If far apart servers are the way to create the competing regional market, then that same argument applies to the disconnected server which is farthest of all. There will indeed be competing merchants when they are connected, and that is actually what existing server merchants really fear, that the competition they squeezed out on Indy went to Release and did the hardwork of bringing themselves up to the same level. Something not possible if Release was connected from the start because they would have been squeezed out from even trying to compete because they cannot even sell 40 or 60QL at all now..

Any other experienced player has the opportunity to go ruin the monopoly market on the same terms instead of waiting for Rolf to give in to their demands that they bring their merchant ships and enchanted tools. The exact same argument of regional expertise developing on its own is why Rolf disconnected the servers. Connecting guarantees the same old traders show up and start selling, while disconnecting gives others the opportunity to get their foot in the door and to be that regional trader that only serves his area, even if it is an alt of an experienced player the point is they earned that spot rather than just sailing right into it.

Edited by yarnevk

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I disagree with this vision of the old vs new market. You suppose every Pris/Rel players WANT high QL tools for little prices. This is absolutly not the case. Players on new servers just want to experience building an island from scratch, even with low QL tools. What's the interest to land in a Wurm island and terraform it in a week ? What's the interest for new players to know they'll never be able to sell tools or object better and/or cheaper than an older player coming from an old island ?

The market competition and the item prices are really not the main reason why most of the Pris/Release players don't want to join the servers. For now.

If islands were inequally doted in resources (no sand in this one, scarce trees in this one, lot of silver in this one ...), it can be think twice because even the best trader of old server can't compete those actually having the resources.

Edited by Jondok
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Rolf, I strongly oppose connecting pristine to the older server.

The launch of wurm 1.0 needs its own pristine cluster that should never be connected to beta players.

The other day I rode my horse to see the green dragon, the first time I'm ever seeing a dragon in Wurm. it was really an amazing experience. I've been searching for this experience my whole wurm life. just so I could realize that one day i would fight along side all of pristine and battle this dragon, all the same people who built the whole island and fought off hundreds of creatures and tended a thousand wounds and sawed a million planks, we fight hard for our land, our bounty, our community and the chance to experience pristine and 1.0 from a new place that cant be touched by anything old.

This is so much fun I cant tell you how much fun I'm having I've been having so much fun I haven't even had time to worry about this stuff so please don't ruin it.

if inde needs a new island with their own dragons by all means give it to them, give them 2 and then they will have 7 seas to sail.

but please let pristine be its own cluster from 1.0 on.

Thank you

Then there should be a new pvp server on release&pristine cluster.

There is a reason why there is atleast 1 pvp server on every cluster (until now), if someone wants to try it out without creating a brand new character (which most people do not want to do) they have the ability to do so.

Edited by Che

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I disagree with this vision of the old vs new market. You suppose every Pris/Rel players WANT high QL tools for little prices. This is absolutly not the case. Players on new servers just want to experience building an island from scratch, even with low QL tools.

Technically, you are correct, those selling the higher QL items want to sell them at higher prices, ergo, they don't WANT players to buy them at lower prices.

What's the interest to land in a Wurm island and terraform it in a week ? What's the interest for new players to know they'll never be able to sell tools or object better and/or cheaper than an older player coming from an old island ?

In the title tracking thread, you already have 70 skilled and titled players, including blacksmithing and even enchanting, this was not "new players enjoying the building of the server" it is people rushing to be able to make as much silver as possible (or those rare souls who want to be "first" to a title.)

Sellers will charge whatever the market supports, and buyers who need something will pay no matter what the price is.

And as someone who might purchase anything from someone else, you don't want the best price? Not always the lowest price, but the best one? This requires you to have options on who you buy from, the more options you have, the more control you have on the prices you pay.

The market competition and the item prices are really not the main reason why most of the Pris/Release players don't want to join the servers. For now.

If islands were inequally doted in resources (no sand in this one, scarce trees in this one, lot of silver in this one ...), it can be think twice because even the best trader of old server can't compete those actually having the resources.

Players enjoy new experiences, seeing a dragon is great, and the first time you get punted is something you'll never forget.

But when the dragons (or other unquies are gone) the only thing you have is the land and the market. From the comments of the regular players on the new servers, the land has already been taken/reworked/etc..., and players have moved on to Release like locus.

I agree, the new servers deserve a chance to grow and stablize, their markets need to develop, and they should have the chance to either kill or protect their "uniques" as they choose.

I also think, that the Pris/Release server's populations needs to normalize as well. So don't add a new map to the "new" cluster. Let the dust settle, see who is really left, and if they need more room, link them to the "old" cluster before creating a new map for EITHER cluster.

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An entirely flawed argument that ignores that to dominate the closed server they have to go there on an alt and start with 1QL and skill just like everyone else,and there will always be somebody else with as much time and drive as you, and that someone could be someone entirely new.. It is much easier to dominate trade when you come with a merchant ship and high skills and tools having already spent that time elsewhere compared to someone new who has not that advantage.

The border is not closed to you , you as a player can come to Pristine and Release and have every chance to dominate the server trade, what you do not have is the character advantage that a new player does not have. Of course being a noob may be harder than you remember especially without those advantages, but you do have the equal opportunity to try.

Please, stop thinking in sort term. The question is not if the new servers should be connected tonight, but if they should be connected at all, in some undefined future. You may go from Freedom to Epic without "creating alts", but you can't go to a Freedom sub-cluster? What next, we'll start reinventing the portals? I'd rather see ferries - why not, everything is possible with large enough player base.

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Got an idea..

What if you need to purchase a ticket to cross to those servers. Would at least keep trade open but more controlled.

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The ticket idea is interesting, but unless you make that ticket extremely cost prohibitive, it will only be a money sink, not a gating mechanism as you hope.

And would the ticket allow for travel both ways (once or round-trip). So if someone wants off the "new" servers, do they have to pay the increased price as well?

I think it would just over complicate the process, but could be a way to address the concerns. However, I'd expect to see a lot more of the "link them sooner rather than later" if a solution like this is available.

Again, I think the folks saying "don't link them" are hearing everyone else saying "Now". In the conversations, I can only recall one or two posts actually asking for this, so these might be the basis for the belief.

My understanding is most of us are saying "down the road".

Based on Rolf's statement, if the plan is to join them after some set criteria is met, how about we propose something for him to measure against that the community agrees to so we don't make him have to be the bad guy lol.

Say XX% of the population has any skill over 50 and YY% has any skill over 70 AND ZZ% of the uniques are killed/penned, would this be a safe place to start a discussion outside the feedback thread? This would include those accounts that continue to be active and were premium which have let that premium status lapse for any reason, so while it be a reflection of the premium accounts, even those who could not (or choose to not) keep the status would impact the decision metrics.

Thoughts?

Edited by Hussars

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Rolf already rejected the set criteria, he said in the OP they will be linked maybe as short as months from now or maybe even a couple of years, and if you need a more objective answer than that then you need to rethink your plans, but he left it open to poll the server to see if they are ready at that time rather than him deciding that.

My personal opinion is he will not decide when it is until the new servers reach capacity and he has no choice but to put out a new server now simply to accommodate an exploding population. That would be a good time to decide does the new server stay with the disconnected servers, or do you connect those servers and leave this newest one the disconnected.

Edited by yarnevk

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The new servers will be joined with the existing freedom cluster when it's time, which I don't see happening in many months. Someone asked if it could take 2 years, and yes there is no set time limit, but I have a hunch that it's going to happen before that.

If people on those servers strongly oppose to joining until then and there are no other strong reasons to keep the cluster together that's how long it may take. I think many of you can make advanced estimates out of this information and since I don't have any more at the moment that's what we have to live with. If you absolutely _have_ to know because you can't plan otherwise.. I suggest you.. reconsider :)

We may add some checkbox that players on those servers can click which shows if they're opposed or pro joining. This will give a good indicator.

Actually he said no timeline.

The in-game vote is the best option suggested by far, just a matter of if/when he flips the switch for the voting to start, I was just offering a suggesstion for a possible set of defined criteria agreed on by the community at large for him potentially use to start the evaluation process as to flip that switch or not.

Either way, I do not participate in the market, and based on complaints from some of the players on those servers, not interested in the land either, so I'll drop out the discussion and let you hash it out as you see fit. Ultimately, it is a larger impact (good or bad is yet to be seen) to the Pris/Release servers than to the rest of the Freedom cluster, but everyone should still have a say if they chose to do so.

Edited by Hussars

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Then there should be a new pvp server on release&pristine cluster.

There is a reason why there is atleast 1 pvp server on every cluster (until now), if someone wants to try it out without creating a brand new character (which most people do not want to do) they have the ability to do so.

That is not the reason that there is chaos on the older cluster. Chaos, formally known as Wild, was a pvp server on its own which got very quiet when epic was opened so it got merged. That is a good thing for now because it allows a lot more people to test out the upcoming and future edits to pvp.

There is always epic...

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Speaking as a newbie non-premium on Pristine, I'm glad to be somewhere that is limited access for now. I agree that this question of joining the clusters is purely hypothetical for now. When this cluster has matured will be the time to decide if it has become so alike to cluster 1 that joining them would be of no detriment, or quite different and therefore should be allowed to remain separate.

I do feel however that players should be allowed to gather their characters together if they wish to but perhaps not on cluster 2, to avoid the arguments that have been previously listed.

I personally would support the creation of a one-way portal from cluster 2 to cluster 1, so alt characters or anyone else that feels trapped can rejoin the original Freedom servers, as a method to address some of the issues raised without needing to rush into joining the clusters.

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This is a great idea. If gathering alts is the main argument, let's gather them on cluster 1.

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Makes it sound like the rest of us dont get a say. Only the people on Pristine and Release. If the checkbox is to be implemented down the track, make it fair and for all of freedom. imo.

You shouldn't get a say unless your on the new servers, because you'll have all high skill characters checking the box to join them just too sell stuff, making all work of the players on the new servers(that have been grinding form the start) for the high lvl skills wasted time and energy(unless this a 12-18 month away thing)

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I just want to say that merging TWO land massess, inlcude TWO communities, and so, it shouldnt be a UNILATERAL decision. Restrictions aboud, that is perfectly fine, but such a change would affect BOTH sides.

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Keep them separate, the economy on both sides is different and could mess it up for everyone if you join them together.

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Keep them separate, the economy on both sides is different and could mess it up for everyone if you join them together.

Actually it would help everyone. More buyers for the sellers = more money even if they have to charge less. Buyers are able to purchase more and better goods with less money, win-win. That's my point of view in a nutshell.

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Rolf, I strongly oppose connecting pristine to the older server.

The launch of wurm 1.0 needs its own pristine cluster that should never be connected to beta players.

The other day I rode my horse to see the green dragon, the first time I'm ever seeing a dragon in Wurm. it was really an amazing experience. I've been searching for this experience my whole wurm life. just so I could realize that one day i would fight along side all of pristine and battle this dragon, all the same people who built the whole island and fought off hundreds of creatures and tended a thousand wounds and sawed a million planks, we fight hard for our land, our bounty, our community and the chance to experience pristine and 1.0 from a new place that cant be touched by anything old.

This is so much fun I cant tell you how much fun I'm having I've been having so much fun I haven't even had time to worry about this stuff so please don't ruin it.

if inde needs a new island with their own dragons by all means give it to them, give them 2 and then they will have 7 seas to sail.

but please let pristine be its own cluster from 1.0 on.

Thank you

We could wait all the uniques be dead to connect the servers. Or like someone said, have one 18-24 months period isolated before the joining.

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Eh i say connect them in half a years time or whatever. Ive never been a fan of splitting the community so the more people connected to the freedom isles the better!

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as for those chatin about capacity, None of the servers have even went past 75% capacity. Yet new servers appeard. Exodus was finally reaching 50% sometimes, Cele opened up, exodus cleared out. Now it rides around 125 at peak. No server will see 75% capacity, Rolf will open more before they hit 50% as really, at 50% most of the servers being used up, at 50% non aggros no longer spawn, So people jump to a new server to get all the animals they never had, Repeats. Personally Shrink server sizes to match the actually pops, like exodus, 225 Max, as atm 400, server cant handle 200, no non aggros spawn, alot of the land is indeed used. Also the new servers shouldnt be linked ever, its a playground for new players. However a 1 way portal to the normal cluster should be allowed, IE, people sail or portal to the normal freedom servers. This should be allowed . It would work well for these new folks as they get to know the game etc, then can come join the rest of the pop and the new servers remain as a starting ground for new players and old players will never touch.

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Carebears need to stop crying about having to place a little risk into their game play. As Ecrir said you COULD mail things across leaving an alt sit at a market. But it would cost you as your bypassing the risk factor. Wurm needs more risk as theres next to nothing to lose other then if you didnt deed it or enclose it right. There should be riskes if you want to profit from new frontiers. Just semi afk sailing isnt enough in my eyes. Scraps on fail have been removed making wurm way to easy. There should be some hard paths added back into the game.

And pvp is not being forced on you. If you dont want to fight dont cross to the other side

Feel free to enjoy your "risks" yourself.

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I agree that any players upon the P&R servers should have a one way portal *out* to any of the other Freedom Isles servers for whatever reason. I see no harm in letting others *leave* these servers, only the ability of players from the F Isles severs I-D-E-C to travel into P&R would have the negative impacts upon its experimental nature.

=Ayes=

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at 50% non aggros no longer spawn

Creatures spawn if the creature cap has not been reached. Since horses and cattle are penned all over the server (let alone useless chicken, pigs and useless colored deer) there's hardly a move in the non-aggressive creature count and no new animals can spawn.

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