Add Map Or A Craftable Map

[atazs 965]

The most important question would be: How would such a map cope with things like disbanding settlements, decaying things, terraforming etc...? The world is constantly changing.

-1

[shadowblasta 142]

The most important question would be: How would such a map cope with things like disbanding settlements, decaying things, terraforming etc...? The world is constantly changing.

-1

its a paper map just toss it and make another

[Elen 1,013]

The problem I see is that you wouldn't be putting any effort into making the map, just right clicking and waiting as it was generated. This is the same problem in each of the weekly map threads, no effort on the part of the player.

Then we would of course start on the slippery slope with people wanting live maps with a hud and exclamation marks over veins and all the other stuff to ruin game immersion and the unique feel of this wonderful game.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Elen

[yarnevk 257]

since we have papyrus we can make it so your character writes down where he walks

This is a good solution require resources and skills and mind logic to be able to remember where you walked before. It is always out of date and does not tell you where you are in relation to the world or even where you are at right now. It is just a simple piece of parchment that says the last time you went to the SE neighbor it was 50 tiles over and 30 up, but you had to take the diagonal route to avoid the bear spawn over there by the pond. You still have to look at landmarks to figure out where you are. The next time you visit them they are disbanded and someone filled in the pond, you have to make a new map ripping up the old one, and that is only if you figure out what happened instead of just thinking you are lost.

Maps have existed for hundreds of years and they indeed are laughably inaccurate, but that is why archaic maps are so highly valued now, a valuable record of what people thought the world looked like. A modern GPS route finder is not at all the same thing, paper maps do not tell you where you are or what the latest changes are so there really is no harm to move that off the forums and make it a constructable game object. If anything paper maps only make you more lost, because they are out of date and you mistake where you think you are, rather than relying on instincts about where you are.

You should be able to make copies to give to your neighbors showing them where the public silver mine is or even to a world cartographer. When you plant a deed or tower the guards can even give you an official map of your domain as a cost extra service.

Edited January 23, 2013 by yarnevk

[Miretta 1,415]

i had a really worked out cartography suggestion somewhere....but seems i cant find it :/

[KunAlt 844]

The problem I see is that you wouldn't be putting any effort into making the map, just right clicking and waiting as it was generated. This is the same problem in each of the weekly map threads, no effort on the part of the player.

Then we would of course start on the slippery slope with people wanting live maps with a hud and exclamation marks over veins and all the other stuff to ruin game immersion and the unique feel of this wonderful game.

Maybe you missed the point that 98% of the thingd you do in wurm is rigth click and waiting as it was generated?

[Elen 1,013]

A brick and a map are very different things.

[joedobo 1,187]

A brick and a map are very different things.

Both are tools or objects we use to play the game. Basically the same in my book.

I wonder how many of these anti-map people are only saying, "no" simply because they know with time everything will be mapped or documented. And I mean everything like lair location, ore vein locations, ect ect. Although, If I got the skill to make a map why shouldn't I be able to mark where a utmost vein or lair is?

Like a lot of trends lately. Some players want tell others how to play. They don't like maps and don't want other to have the means to make them. I think its selfish because they have the choice of not looking at them.

Onto a different subject,

-Their should be a way we can trade maps and a way to stitch them together.

-No one has talked about (what I perceive as) a technical problem with most map implementations I've seen. People want maps that are unique to a piece of paper. How good it is will depend on skill and tools. The problem with this is unique data is stored on the server. Take for example a shovel; the generalized rendering stuff like: the icons, textures, poly-frame are all on the client. The stuff that really defines a shovel is on the server: quality, maker's mark, enchants, and damage. So if every map is unique that means the unique data for a map will be on the server and communicated to the client. Maybe their are better ways of communicating image data. but I see problems with increasing the bandwidth CodeClub uses and what we need to play the game (Wurm uses very little). Not only is bandwidth a potential issue but so storing lots of unique maps in some kind of database scheme (even if you put the maps in flat files and just have path links in database).

I like the idea of using the terrain data that is already on your machine now and applying a quality level mask to it for map generation. Things that could affect quality level include: reader's mind logic, maker's skill, maker's tools qualities.

[Miretta 1,415]

oh joe....if i could tell you what to do, i would say: watch your words and maybe speak a little less, because everytime you start to argument about how other peoples state their opinions, you dumb down your original "idea" "opinion" etc.

I like the idea about maps, as I think, wurm needs maps and such a game shouldn't rely forever on it's community to have them. Those players will maybe stop playing somewhen...soo....

I think it's alo needed to fit it properly into the game world(sadly I can't find my old thread) but using reed and pens was one idea.

other ideas were:

-increased details when getting better skill at cartography

-instead of only one skill affecting the map "build" it could be more added: fine paper, dyes, some sort of measuring instruments etc.(some of them are already ingame)

-player wont be on the map at all (no gps)

-for pvp areas: maps cant be traded between kingdoms!

-size of map should be skillbased too (similar to how carpentry affects size of houseplans)

-long action timer and difficult to skill (like meditating)

-maps can only map a certain radius around you, the larger the map, the longer it takes and maybe the edges are less detailed (it would be nice to add code that would prevent people from spying behind walls except they are on the deeds list)

-maps can decay!

-maps can be sold too

-if you want a map of your whole server you need to actually explore (it takes alot of time!) and maybe make alot of small maps with lower skill

-maps dont "update" themselves, you need to revisit places to map changes

-decide if you want an overland map (no details from deeds) or a local map

will add more if I remember more

Edited January 23, 2013 by Miretta

[yarnevk 257]

I like the idea of using the terrain data that is already on your machine now and applying a quality level mask to it for map generation. Things that could affect quality level include: reader's mind logic, maker's skill, maker's tools qualities.

I think it is already there, the same thing used to make map dumps, the same thing used to make distant terrain. It already knows far off into the distance what simplified tile color with no sprites and no texture details to show. Generally games have a pregenerated world map specifically for improving the performance of those distant land view. Just add a suitable cartography art filter and generate a texture on the fly which is then displayed as limited per the QL limiters. The fact that it existed using hacks in the past indicates it is possible to do. It might be as simple as it literally is a far field overhead camera in the 3D engine that looks down - it just is not displayed GPS style, it is just captured onto your client as your private picture collection that you can only display properly with skill. In a similar manner player created books for trade and flyers for the town bulletin board could be made.

Even though I do not play PVP how cool would that be to kill the courier carrying your enemies deed maps, and you only need a cartographor with sufficient skill to read them and skills in their 'foreign' language. Even cooler when you attack only to find out the maps was a disinformation campaign using temporarily constructed then disbanded deeds.

Edited January 23, 2013 by yarnevk

[joedobo 1,187]

oh joe....if i could tell you what to do, i would say: watch your words and maybe speak a little less, because everytime you start to argument about how other peoples state their opinions, you dumb down your original "idea" "opinion" etc.

And I'll replay, I don't care if you think less of me. If someone tries to tell me how to play, I'll get in thier face and point it out. My intent is not to start an argument, its to educate. In this case specifically, anti-map folks have a choice, don't look at the map.

I think it is already there, the same thing used to make map dumps, the same thing used to make distant terrain.

Agreed. I was trying to address issues about maps that would be unique objects created on a piece of paper. If we all looked at the same map it seems it would take up a lot less resources.

Are their any problems with letting use do some kind of a PNG map dump from out client directly to our Wurm folder? Although, this way relies too much on out of game skills/program/tools. I'd really like to see the whole package working in game.

[yarnevk 257]

Are their any problems with letting use do some kind of a PNG map dump from out client directly to our Wurm folder? Although, this way relies too much on out of game skills/program/tools. I'd really like to see the whole package working in game.

The mechanic can be client side, using existing mapdump capability and skill QL filters combined with artsy parchement/ink filters to make something that looks like an in-game map. Then the game client reads the maps you have from your client install and displays them as in-game objects. The actual in-game object is just the paper with the link on it and a nice name. If you ever trade the map then it goes to the other players client thru the server, but in general the server is not dealing with the actual maps thus these custom gfx objects cannot be a burden to the server, anymore than the texture maps for customized character faces are not a burden to the server. They are only a client burden, which some clients cannot handle hi-rez thus we have gfx options limiting the size of the character textures.

Once you have these ability to have custom textures in place then a painting over the fireplace forge could simply browse your screenshot directory. A player made book could include snapshots of places they have visited. And you can have maps.

Edited January 24, 2013 by yarnevk

[uian 3]

I started a separate thread on this the other day not realizing that this one already existed. My apologies. Anyways, I copied and pasted my ideas here. I realize this explanation is not exhaustive and there are other things to consider, but maybe it would work as a basic framework that needs to be tweaked. I saw some other ideas posted earlier that are good as well, some of which would even be compatible with and enhance what I've suggested here. Not saying this is the only way or the best way to do it. Just throwing my ideas out.

MAP TEMPLATE

The first thing required to make a map would be a map template. The materials required would be parchment, ink and stylus. The size of the template (in tiles) would be determined by the ql of the template. A 1 ql template would have only 1 tile on it. From there, the radius of the map would be increased by 1 tile per ql, so a 2 ql map would have 9 tiles; 1 in the middle with 8 surrounding it. A 3 ql template would have 25 tiles, and so on.

CREATING THE MAP

Once the template is made, the cartographer would stand on the tile he/she wishes to be the center of the map and draw the map using ink and stylus. The area that the cartographer can draw would be determined by the cartographer’s skill level. A cartographer with a skill level of 1 can only draw the tile they are standing on. A radius of 1 tile would be added for each skill level beyond 1. A skill level of 2 could draw 9 tiles, a skill level of 3 could draw 25 tiles, and so on. A cartographer also would not be able to draw areas that are hidden by tall stone walls or palisades. This would be a way for players to prevent maps being drawn of areas they don’t want to be common knowledge, especially on pvp servers. If the cartographer’s skill level does not permit him to fill the template upon map creation, he/she could draw in other tiles, through map updating.

MAP UPDATING

Once a map has been created, it CANNOT be imped, but it CAN be updated. This means that the size of the map cannot be changed, but the contents can. As with map creation, this would require stylus and ink. The cartographer would stand on any tile in the area represented by the map. The radius of the update would be determined by the cartographer’s skill the same way it is determined when creating the map. The same rules in map creation with tall stone walls and palisades would apply here as well. If the cartographer is standing close to the edge of the area represented by the map, only those tiles that are on the map would be updated.

PIECING MAPS TOGETHER

I have not thought much on the mechanics of this concept, but maybe it would be possible for a cartographer to piece maps together to make larger maps. This would make it possible to make a somewhat complete map of a server. Of course this would be difficult and time consuming, because the cartographer would be required to travel the entire server, or buy smaller pieces from other cartographers around the server every time he/she would want to make such a map. This would make complete server maps or maps that cover large areas very valuable and would be a nice source of $$ for those who are willing to put forth that effort.

MAP CONTENT

I am not entirely sure what should be included when a map is drawn or updated. It may be as simple as a map dump of the area being drawn, but here are my thoughts of some things that should be included on the map:

-Deed names: This is essential because it is the best way for the map holder to determine his/her location on the map

-Tile types: grass, trees, buildings, rock, cobblestone, slab, etc.

-Tile borders that have fences or hedges

-Maps would be created from a bird’s eye view, meaning that if a tile had a building on it, it would be designated as a building tile, and it would not show anything inside the building, such as what type of flooring it has or what types of walls/fences are on the tile borders.

-The names of buildings (same name as the writ)

ENCHANTED MAPS

I’m not sure how I feel about adding this, but I thought I would throw it out there anyways. Certain priests (maybe Fo) could enchant a map with a spirit in a similar way Fo priests enchant mail boxes. This would make it so the map would mark the current location of the holder every time it was viewed. If this was implemented, it is my opinion that this should require a very high level priest to enchant.

-Uian

Edited January 24, 2013 by uian

[shadowblasta 142]

bleh -1 either way, you can totally make a rl map with crayons and paper

like you said, you can make a map with crayons, why cant a wurmian make a map with papyrus and dye? your argument fails in itself

[Elen 1,013]

like you said, you can make a map with crayons, why cant a wurmian make a map with papyrus and dye? your argument fails in itself

So long as it is the player manually drawing it ingame ala mspaint style interface, sounds great to me.

[Puertorro 371]

I like the idea 100% it would add one more reason to play Wurm. Think of the ppl that will travel the server gathering information for his map in-game. Think of the marketing possibilities when a cartographer skills are high and he has a map of the whole server for example. It would add yet another item that circulates in the economy and that its on high demand. And its funny because the same ppl that dissagree with the map will be the first one's using them to get around.

[Miretta 1,415]

not the first time that this is suggested and I still think that there are several reasons to implement this!

1. sure, wurm has a really long term playing playerbase, but we CAN'T expect that there is always someone there who continues the "out of game maps" it's real life free time they spend for us and I'm glad for it, but in my opinion this should be only a "temporary" solution until we have something proper ingame

2. wurm is a crafting/survival/exploring game. and what fits better into this thematic then maps? (same goes for drawings and books) it's something very natural for humans to bring their surroundings/inventions/thoughts on a piece of paper...or wall or whatever, so I think it would fit into wurm

3. good reason to trade. It would be really good for the economy to have some things that "need" to be traded to be of use. Like maps who needs to be maintained/updated and serve different purposes. Just imagine how great it would be to sell "blueprints" for a really nice looking deed or house construction? we could sell layouts for ideas and hand them out for people to make community projects easier.

4. community/teamwork if it's not only making maps, but also things like "treasure maps" or community project maps, plans etc. this would be great imagine how nice it would be to have a billboard with letters on it or even a map for travellers (you know those maps in rl where it says: you are here?)

5. a new profession and variety, because we sure all want that and it would give some people a new meaning/new playstyle. People would start wandering around, dropping measure equipment and start to "cartograph" the surroundings. Carefully balanced and thought through this could be a really nice profession with lot's of stuff that could be added to it and lot's of other professions that work with it (fine carpentry, blacksmithing, ropes for measuring etc.)

6. we got some really nice additions to the game lately and we all found ways to bring it to a level where all are kinda satisfied with the outcome, so done good, maps are really something that would improve wurm

[Protunia 735]

-1 to in game maps ever

[Skurcey 1]

adding something like they did on miasmata game would be a cool mini game
/>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdIRfJRS1FI

[Radni 1,089]

As much as I want maps... It'd be... Interesting on the PvP servers, depending on how it added deeds and such. Maybe let people only map their home server and then Elevation?

[Miretta 1,415]

As much as I want maps... It'd be... Interesting on the PvP servers, depending on how it added deeds and such. Maybe let people only map their home server and then Elevation?

this is something that was discussed in other map threads too the best thing would be to be only able to map the "influee area or your home server and add "blocking view" too, so that you cant map over tall stone walls.

maybe even make it impossible to add unknown deeds to the map and add an option fo deeds so they can decide if it can be mapped from everyone or just from friends and so on.

[Radni 1,089]

this is something that was discussed in other map threads too the best thing would be to be only able to map the "influee area or your home server and add "blocking view" too, so that you cant map over tall stone walls.

maybe even make it impossible to add unknown deeds to the map and add an option fo deeds so they can decide if it can be mapped from everyone or just from friends and so on.

Hmm.. Maybe, but only if this maps the tile your standing on. Raiders have often missed a deed by 2 tiles, and if the map mapped those two tiles, and the raiders were able to say "hey! Two tiles to the west is a deed!" no no no. Much rather kingdoms JUST be able to map their home server, and maybe elevation

[Elen 1,013]

I necro another -1 to this !

[RockyBalboa 565]

i will add map of towns /deeds/... that i see as nice thing ... so huge sign planted in middle of village and when u use it u see that city, deed or village map. Maps can be made by mayors or something.... so they can add names of houses on it.... is simple idea ... and no we dont need ingame map when u travel....