Has Multistory Gone Too Far?

[Bagsecg 110]

People always make stupid house plans. I like what we have now. People will always make ugly houses no matter what happens. There were massive massive stone structures back in the medieval days.

[Farmerbob 369]

I have no problems with massive constructs. What I suggested above would not prevent them. It would merely prevent large, insane constructs.

Edited January 14, 2013 by Farmerbob

[Joanavon 553]

Frankly since it's my house and i'm the one who built it (especially if it's also on my deed) it'll look like whatever i want and if the neighbors don't like it they can feel free to evacuate their bruised aesthetics to a safer (pretentious) place. I reserve the right but build what i want and since i could care less if you built a house in the shape of "Joan sucks" right next to me and i have to look at it everyday i think others can just do the same.

[Farmerbob 369]

Frankly since it's my house and i'm the one who built it (especially if it's also on my deed) it'll look like whatever i want and if the neighbors don't like it they can feel free to evacuate their bruised aesthetics to a safer (pretentious) place. I reserve the right but build what i want and since i could care less if you built a house in the shape of "Joan sucks" right next to me and i have to look at it everyday i think others can just do the same.

I also believe in freedom to build what you want, after the system is configured to make the insane buildings impossible.

I don't have a problem with leaving existing broken, arse-ugly eyesores in the game because someone has already put in the effort to build them. Eventually, they will go away if sane rules are implemented for building. It might take years, but that's fine.

[Joanavon 553]

when deciding where along the spectrum to place the limits i think player creativity and options should be more heavily weighted then demands for a "immersive" medieval simulator with magic, dragons, trolls and 15 foot tall unicorns in pink.

[Farmerbob 369]

when deciding where along the spectrum to place the limits i think player creativity and options should be more heavily weighted then demands for a "immersive" medieval simulator with magic, dragons, trolls and 15 foot tall unicorns in pink.

IMHO, there's a big difference between a low fantasy world with somewhat realistic buildings, and a low fantasy world with insane, impossible buildings. You may feel free to feel differently, if you so choose.

[Zcul 303]

I'd rather spend time adding more features and versatility than spend time limit the existing one.

The only thing that I would even consider limiting is buildings that defy the law of physics like that mushroom house, we'll see how it turns out.

/Andreas

[Loremaster 21]

Leave it alone now, here is what happens, you piss and moan and we lower it by, lets say 3 stories, then the next bunch pisses and moans and we raise it by say 2, seriously, if something breaks your immersion move away from it, we have like 11 servers and god knows how much space on each server, you can plant trees, build dirtwalls, always face east with you character to not have your eyes offended by a house that has one more story possible in the middle ages before 3 sided interlocking keystones or whatever were invented according to a wiki.

If that's the case then why not throw caution to the wind and allow the players to code the game. I mean, it's a sandbox isn't it?

[VentureCo 94]

I'd rather spend time adding more features and versatility than spend time limit the existing one.

The only thing that I would even consider limiting is buildings that defy the law of physics like that mushroom house, we'll see how it turns out.

/Andreas

I'm pretty sure fixing that would resolve the vast majority of complaints (and i will be honest; i think this particular part really needs fixing in order to maintain wurms "game feel").

[Loremaster 21]

I also just looked up the wiki article on insula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulae) and it makes no specific mention of how high the buildings were. Rather it says there were typically six to seven apartments in one insula, which doesn't necessarily mean they were all on top of each other. Yes I know that there were many buildings in ancient times that were even taller than six stories, but they were constructed using many architectural techniques. I have yet to hear of a six story living quarters in ancient times, mainly because it would've been impractical given the technology at the time and also because there wasn't a means to support a livable or accommodating apartment complex that big. So call me crazy for wanting a little realism and practicality in the game that I play; there's a fine line between fantasy and lunacy.

Edited January 14, 2013 by Loremaster

[Serpentarius 186]

Useless to make 2+ floors since you can't put bsb/fsb on same tile on first and second (and more ) floors

You actually can, you just need to plant the bsb/fsb.

[EliasTheCrimson 348]

I'd definitely support some restrictions on building design, mainly the physics-defying ones but I'd also prefer restrictions discouraging the sky-scrapers. Loose limitations that help designers make the right design decisions. The reason I'm having an opinion on what other people build is because I can. It's all I can do at this point, really. I don't expect it to be considered, but on the offhand chance that it will be I might as well throw it out here. You're free to do the same.

[Farmerbob 369]

I also just looked up the wiki article on insula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulae) and it makes no specific mention of how high the buildings were. Rather it says there were typically six to seven apartments in one insula, which doesn't necessarily mean they were all on top of each other. Yes I know that there were many buildings in ancient times that were even taller than six stories, but they were constructed using many architectural techniques. I have yet to hear of a six story living quarters in ancient times, mainly because it would've been impractical given the technology at the time and also because there wasn't a means to support a livable or accommodating apartment complex that big. So call me crazy for wanting a little realism and practicality in the game that I play; there's a fine line between fantasy and lunacy.

Insulae were up to 6 or seven, or even 8 to 9 stories tall: From the Wiki article that has not been edited since Novenmber last year:

"Living quarters were typically smallest in the building's uppermost floors, with the largest and most expensive apartments being located on the bottom floors. The insulae could be up to six or seven storeys high, and despite height restrictions in the Imperial era, a few reached eight or nine storeys.^[4]"

^{The height of the buildings isn't a terrible conecrn to me, it's the completely and utterly insanely designed ones that make no sense which breaks the feature, IMHO.}

^{Insulae were very tall, but they were certainly not shaped like mushrooms. or boats on stilts.}

[Kyrmius 193]

I agree, and add these people who want a realistic medieval simulation are not the majority.

From the first paragraphs on Wurm's home page:

"Welcome to Wurm, the game of limitless opportunity and freedom, where the actions of every player can make a lasting difference. We offer no character classes, quests or a pre-built environment. Instead, we offer players the opportunity to choose their own direction and to train any or all of the skills they desire while living in a breathing and evolving world entirely built and maintained by the players that inhabit it. Become a part of our active and involved community, and play the game you want to play in the way you want to play it! This is Wurm. Be prepared to leave your mark. Try it now for free!this out"

We'll change that to this:

"Welcome to Wurm, a game where we limit people actions to preserver a medieval simulation theme. A game where the actions of every player shall be restricted and limited to assure offensive creations can't be created. We offer no character classes, quests or a pre-built environment. Instead, we offer players the opportunity to choose their own direction and to train any or all of the skills they desire while living in a breathing and evolving world entirely built and maintained by the players that inhabit it. Become a part of our active and involved community, and play the game you want to play in the way you want to play it (as long as you don't try and make something offence)! This is Wurm. Be prepared to leave your mark. Try it now for free!this out"

Indisputable fact -> Not a single sentence on the Wurm's home page says its a medieval simulation game or aspires to be one.

My opinion -> The immersion arguments I see are simply players imposing thier own opinions about how they want the game to look. They are entitled to their opinions. But the fact is, as clearly supported and explained by Wurm's home page, various creative player made constructs is one of the primary attributes of Wurm.

lol, I wonder how much, "whine whine whine" will happen when the 41 story towers get implemented.

The current webpage says nothing about Wurm being a "medieval simulation" true, but the old website did and it was well understood that Wurm was intended to be a Medieval Simulation. If you had been around here long enough you would know that.

You want to call us whiners? Go ahead. We just want Wurm to retain some of the time period characteristics that made it special among MMOROGs.If trying to defend something we care about is Whining that sign me up.

I know what you will probably say next..... "It's all just Pixels". Yeah and I'm just atoms. If you want to break things down far enough none of it matters... but it does matter. We spend our time in this "pixel" world, we use imaginations and we create in Wurm what we might wish to create in the real world if we could. We visit Wurm to live in what was was referred to as a Medieval simulation, a primitive world that felt fresh and free from the grundge of civilization, were we could see the Wurm world kind of like how our ancestors saw the real world thousands of years ago. Some of us even use Wurm as an escape from real life (god forbid!!).

No other MMO ever made has allowed Players to do this like Wurm. Sure there has been simulations before, but not fully featured like Wurm, or with operating environment systems (trees, crops, livestock), with weather, housing, crafts, etc. Only Wurm. Wurm had a special atmosphere that has now been changed by multistory buildings. I doubt if anyone can argue that isn't so. Wurm *IS* about Immersion whether anyone wants to admit it or not. It is one of Wurm's primary Features.

And now some of you want to change Wurm for what you think is better, even some of the Devs. Fair enough, but not all of us will see it as better and that does not make us whiners. That makes us former customers.

Edited January 14, 2013 by Kyrmius

[fatboy 448]

vast majority isnt complaing about this zcul only a select few complaining imersion. Im sorry but the pop almost nailing 2000 today Speaks for its self. The sky scrappers, law defying buildings is drawing players, people are getting very creative. You take this creativeness away then you limit the sandbox. Limit the sandbox and you loose players. So Multistorys Doesnt not need anymore limitations other then wats already ingame. I dont care if some of you dont like what people made. Last time i checked a sandbox is where someone can go and be creative and building anything they want to the way they like it, Not the way you like it. You all wont win this one as there is 90% pop liking the current MS system vs a few who hate some of the creators designs ingame.All i can say to that is adapt or move, Prety simple. Its a sandbox ive seen land and other areas 1000x worse looking then a skyscrapper block building. They paid the moneyt o do those buildings/crap to there land, Who the hell are you all to tell people wat they can and cant build. I respect alot of ya, but you all need to learn to adapt to change because on your current track record your gonna drive the new pop away. Wurms changing, adding more custumization. There is tons of imersion ingame i see it daily, Just because its not fiting your opnion of your version of that doesnt mean u have a rite to take sand from my box cuz ya dont like how it looks. Well Neither ya adapt or move on. Pretty simple. Systems fine, the rising Population says so. So give up the battle, you all lost his one and youll never win it. Ive seen alot of awsome buildings and so wat they dont meet RL standards, they are friggin awasome, creative put alot of love into creataing them. If they loose the ability to make that ill hate the community then as then you are being selfish and forcing wat you feel wurm should be over the vast majority that seem to enjoy it. So in short stop trying to ruin my imersion because its not fiting wat a select few of ya dont like.

[Kyrmius 193]

vast majority isnt complaing about this zcul only a select few complaining imersion. Im sorry but the pop almost nailing 2000 today Speaks for its self. The sky scrappers, law defying buildings is drawing players, people are getting very creative. You take this creativeness away then you limit the sandbox. Limit the sandbox and you loose players. So Multistorys Doesnt not need anymore limitations other then wats already ingame. I dont care if some of you dont like what people made. Last time i checked a sandbox is where someone can go and be creative and building anything they want to the way they like it, Not the way you like it. You all wont win this one as there is 90% pop liking the current MS system vs a few who hate some of the creators designs ingame.All i can say to that is adapt or move, Prety simple. Its a sandbox ive seen land and other areas 1000x worse looking then a skyscrapper block building. They paid the moneyt o do those buildings/crap to there land, Who the hell are you all to tell people wat they can and cant build. I respect alot of ya, but you all need to learn to adapt to change because on your current track record your gonna drive the new pop away. Wurms changing, adding more custumization. There is tons of imersion ingame i see it daily, Just because its not fiting your opnion of your version of that doesnt mean u have a rite to take sand from my box cuz ya dont like how it looks. Well Neither ya adapt or move on. Pretty simple. Systems fine, the rising Population says so. So give up the battle, you all lost his one and youll never win it. Ive seen alot of awsome buildings and so wat they dont meet RL standards, they are friggin awasome, creative put alot of love into creataing them. If they loose the ability to make that ill hate the community then as then you are being selfish and forcing wat you feel wurm should be over the vast majority that seem to enjoy it. So in short stop trying to ruin my imersion because its not fiting wat a select few of ya dont like.

Your idea of immersion is in direct conflict with my idea of immersion. THAT is the problem.

You want the majority, the masses, to decide what direction Wurm goes? You may regret that one.

(Wurm was created by People who were of a fringe of a Minority, and now you want "the Majority" to steer this ship? That choice alone will destroy what Wurm is and has been. "By Default".)

Edited January 14, 2013 by Kyrmius

[Farmerbob 369]

Fatboy, there have to be some limits in any game, or else there will be complete chaos and zero enjoyment for anyone. Saying that there should be no limits to prevent insane houses just leaves us open to gunpowder and electricity next week. Sandboxes have genres too, and the current house rules utterly and completely breaks everything to do with the visual impact of Wurm.

[fatboy 448]

there is limits, most cant exceed 9 storys, hell most are doing 7 storys. and it requires a crap ton of materials and time to build these . Thats not breaking anything ingame. there is hundreds of new players join wurm each week just at the thought they can build that high and come up with these creativitly design buildings and all the other fun stuff ingame. 1.0 brought multistorys, Its current system is driving the pop higher and higher, are you all willing to kill off a system that is working and ive yet to see chaos or ruleless anywhere. to build these things man, it takes a crap ton if time, skill and effort. and visual impact of wurm? Alright i get it , you all been here for so many years, well guess wat, the old wurm wasnt working, wasnt gaining the high pop. The new wurm is, and its not making wurm look bad, these buildings are awsome. Time to adapt wurms progressing, going forward, if you all dont learn to adapt now, your really doomed down the road. There is rules inplace, and tons of enjoyment ingame.i dont see 41 storys ingame thier, max is 15 at 99 carp and ver VERY rare few might be able to do that. Limit the current MS system, Remove wurm from the sandbox world, as then your addint more n more retstrictions. Theres already ones inplace that has the balance. Also bob, gunpower, electricity, really?... wow thinkin that far ahead are ya?....lol

[Kordane 40]

How about needing resource intensive support beams/columns/arches/buttresses to maintain higher buildings and floors which jut out?

In other words: Implement architecture into Wurm.

So yes, you could have your big fat ugly building, but you'll have to exert great effort and planning to see it completed without it falling down.

Edited January 14, 2013 by Kordane

[Turnips 37]

I think basically what the ``whiners" what to prevent are houses such as these popping up around

They look ugly as sin in real life (travelling through the nasty bits of London... ugh)

I'm not trying to say that ALL multistorey village houses from a thousand years ago hit a 3 or 4 floor limit, I'm currently living in a house which is three storeys high and this hasn't been changed all that much since probably around the 1700s, it's just a good deal of them were and you simply wouldn't find those huge office block houses back then! I know this is a fantasy sandbox game with a lot of completely unrealistic things, but please don't forget that it's one set in the 11th century and believe it or not (even if this is just a ``fantasy sandbox/survival" video game), there were limits as to what you could and couldn't build back then :V

That said, it doesn't really sound all that nice to be limited by something, ya know? I was going to say something about the size of the house depending on the size of the deed (how often do you see huge buildings outside of huge cities?) but then people could just build offdeed or something. And now that I think about it, you see those kind of flats on the outskirts of cities all the time hahaha. Hmm...

Man I don't know, what even is the point of this post >w<

[Farmerbob 369]

Actually I don't mind sensibly shaped buildings. Look at what the Romans and Egyptians and Greeks did, to name a few ancient cultures that most of us will know something about.

My problem is the insane buildings that look like mushrooms or boats on stilts. I don't even mind the ones with wooden lower floors and stone upper floors. I know better but I can think to myself, oh thats just stone lower floors with wood cladding.

Don't take away the stuff already built. People have worked very hard on them, but can we control the absurdity?

[Miretta 1,415]

creativity doesnt mean total freedom, creativity means working and creating awesome stuff with(in) boundaries!

so there are some things currently possible, that just won't fit in wurm, because even if this is a FANTASY medieval game there is a general "opinion" about what "asthetic" is for everyone. So restricting players in some ways (need more suggestions how exactly) is not only for keeping the immersion of a beautiful game, but also it's about keeping the world as a whole logical construct.

Wurm players are ironically saying everytime something makes "no sense" it's wurm logic, but know what? It's logical in this world, on it's own and so are these rules and boundaries. If you throw away the boundaries, you'll get a giant mass of things that don't fit together and so aren't beautiful anymore.

Just look what happens to alot of Online games, when they start advertising player costumization with full freedom! It's awful ! Darth vader costume in a mushroom universe with comic graphics? no way! and it's the same with skyscrapers in wurm. It just doesn't belong in this universe and I don't think Rolf intended some of those player made buildings we have seen. He wanted EPIC houses that would still fit into the world, like giant (scratching the clouds) magic towers or huuuuuge castles, cause that is still realistic.....in wurm logic

kindly

Farelle

[Dralor 9]

Many of the houses in the Pic thread I really like. Though the giant squares and some of the others I'm not that fond of personaly.

But that is my personal taste, and since it is a sandbox I nor anyone else should tell others how to play.

If I don't like my neighbors house I can talk to them about it or move.

"Floating houses" im not fond of, but overhangs are doable.

[Zenarus 5]

I understand your view, but it's up to each individual player to keep it from turning into let's say "New York", but I like the potential the new build features provide. Would be really "cool" to see i.e. an medieval style castle, with i.e. a bridge leading to the walled in area with shops, and housing and a larger keep and maybe outside the "security" of the wall, you can have peasant howels and farmlands. It allows for so much more with this, i.e. a tiny village with guard tower etc.

I do agree though that people prob shouldn't abuse the system by building giant skyscrapers, but at the same time, people love wurm because of the freedom it offers, so if they'd start putting restrictions on people, the game would lose that freedom.

[Darkmalice 242]

Look, even you guys that are wanting further restrictions can't agree on what buildings should be allowed. This is purely a matter of taste and preference, in a sandbox game. You complained about 41-high buildings and it was cut right down to 15 max; and that's with the highest possible skill of 99. Along with the needed materials that is a hell of a lot of work to build something 15 high.

It's enough already, you're never going to like everything that everyone else likes, so please stop trying to stifle something that many of us are enjoying as implemented.