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Rolf

Some Pvp Changes To Chaos

  

328 members have voted

  1. 1. Should we increase PvP on Chaos?

    • Yes
      276
    • No
      52


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You can't ask for explainations from people voting no when the 200+ individual people voting yes didn't explain themselves either. I originally voted yes (i love pvp), but i've removed my vote as it's not exactly clear what will happen, and it probably will be a like some have said switching catapulting on etc. Thinking about it, if that happens then raid-thirsty players are gonna rack up, hit HARD and demolish a bunch of deeds with low player counts, they will either quit/leave the server since their posessions are gone, even quiet established players who are used to the current system (they like pvp combat, but not all that happy with pvp raiding). Eventually it will probably end up with the old farts lingering around on the server waiting for the main towns to die.

You can say this but kingdoms have been in these kind of situations before, MR wasnt doing all that well till it placed down HoM and banded together as one huge community then fought out against the HoTS. Honestly you are 10 times better off being on the side of the defender than the attacker usually. Why? Because if you know what you are doing no walls have to go down and you have probably 100s of places to gatehop/minehop from. It simply means players have to be smarter when it comes to defending, in other words having bulk bins of bricks placed at all major gatehouses ready to repair the walls with, having dirtwalls around your town, having defensive gatehouses to repel the attackers from, honestly i could go on. It actually opens up the server to some smart thinking when it comes to actually making a deed, and its becomes more about a 'defensive structure' than one that 'looks pretty' as it is on most freedom servers. This is the way a PvP deed 'should' be. I used to be part of Blackwood's, which i considered home and that got hit incredibly hard and I even lost a drake set and all my 90+ enchanted tools in the looting. Did I cry about it? Nope I moved on and moved into HoM because I know what to expect living on a PvP server. I can understand the concept of your work being undone is not a pretty one to those who have never experienced full PvP servers, but that is and has always been what this server is about. Hell take Rivendell for example, those who played in wild will know how many times that town got smashed into the ground and then rebuilt. That place was constantly being raided, but the town of Rivendell would ALWAYS stand, because its players did.

Edited by Jools
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You are saying they constantly fall, but exactly as you said, "A deed without players to defend it is just a dirt wall waiting to be flattened". Do you call raiding a deed without any players PVP?

I know you were talking to Zarma and not me, but I do. Technically PvP is only flinging arrows at each other and cutting each other up with swords, but I'd wager the times we had the most PvP was purely because of people who had built deeds, towers or whatever.

Some examples;

LO Landbridge vs CV

Water Works/Kyara vs Thunderdome/RD (this was fantastic fun, MR on the doorstep of Kyara!)

Gates of Hell versus Gates of Heaven

Sparta vs DC/Helmsdeep

HaP vs Rivendell

Fight to capture the WL

... probably more I can't think of instantly.

These were more than likely the times when Wild had more PvP than ever, and it was only possible because people chained towers and built deeds - in all instances one side wanted to capture more land and the other wanted to resist them, if there was no possiblity to capture land none of those fights would have ever happened.

Now you can just walk up to any deed and plant a deed on the doorstep and with zero effort you have a respawn point and raid camp, where is the fun in that?

To me PvP by itself is not extremely attractive, there needs to be a reason to PvP and land claiming is/was one of my biggest personal motivations, some other things to consider is on Chaos currently there are "outpost" deeds all over the place, in many cases right in the heart of enemy kingdoms, if there is no way to remove them every time either side poses a challenge the other side will just run back to their deed, this has always been a issue on Chaos but it's amplified with irrimovable outpost deeds all over the place.

Edited by Gavin
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Wholeheartedly agree Gavin.

So 85% of Wurms population wants PvP on Chaos - Lets hope Rolf changes Chaos now :)

Looks like everyone here is of the opinion that Chaos needs more then just simply turning catapulting on, and instead, introduce PMK's. I can see so much benefit of player made kingdoms - The feeling of unity will return, the feeling of purpose will return, and the feeling of doing such and such for the Kingdom (creating missions for yourself and your fellow brothers) will return. Those things alone will bring more PvP to the server. Furthermore, it will remove bugs such as the trap bug where it hits the player not the horse purely because of the lack of kingdoms. PMK's will also completely eradicate the use of spy alts.

Honestly hope rolf sees that the population wants full PvP to return to Chaos and hopefully in the form of Kingdoms :)

Edited by Redd
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I know you were talking to Zarma and not me, but I do. Technically PvP is only flinging arrows at each other and cutting each other up with swords, but I'd wager the times we had the most PvP was purely because of people who had built deeds, towers or whatever.

Some examples;

LO Landbridge vs CV

Water Works/Kyara vs Thunderdome/RD (this was fantastic fun, MR on the doorstep of Kyara!)

Gates of Hell versus Gates of Heaven

Sparta vs DC/Helmsdeep

Fight to capture the WL

... probably more I can't think of instantly.

These were more than likely the times when Wild had more PvP than ever, and it was only possible because people chained towers and built deeds - in all instances one side wanted to capture more land and the other wanted to resist them, if there was no possiblity to capture land none of those fights would have ever happened.

Now you can just walk up to any deed and plant a deed on the doorstep and with zero effort you have a respawn point and raid camp, where is the fun in that?

To me PvP by itself is not extremely attractive, there needs to be a reason to PvP and land claiming is/was one of my biggest personal motivations, some other things to consider is on Chaos currently there are "outpost" deeds all over the place, in many cases right in the heart of enemy kingdoms, if there is no way to remove them every time either side poses a challenge the other side will just run back to their deed, this has always been a issue on Chaos but it's amplified with irrimovable outpost deeds all over the place.

This post plain and simply points out the difference in playstyles between Wild and Epic, which is a really good example for showing that they won't interfere with each other. Wild was more heavily into territorial warfare, and even though it got boring sometimes, I loved it because a lot of actions actually meant something longterm, like writing history. It's exactly why the current situation of the server is the polar opposite of what it really should be.

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Any argument that these changes [whatever they may be ] to Chaos upon the Epic player base is a null and void one. Epic is not so much about territory, but more about influence and numbers. New players joining the game wanting the scenarios and missions that Epic offers will go there, while players wanting something different with the 'freedom' skill set are more than likely to give chaos a go.

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Honestly, I think outpost deeds don't necessarily ruin PvP, but they do promote a more hermit and defensive style of gameplay, which can be fun if you're more of the trench warfare kind of person. What is bad is whenever these deeds are blanketed by hundreds and hundreds of walls and gatehouses outside of it, and the only PvP that is possible is catapulting gatehouses, which isn't even PvP. That's one of the major reasons why I left Wild. The new unlocking gatehouse code is nice, but it's still too easy to re-lock the house after someone walks into it and trap them. This is something that needs to be addressed before I even reconsider joining "Chaos."

Another thing I still find unfair are Farwalker Amulets, but this wasn't too bad earlier in the server because a few good calf-shots to someone and they can't move.... but that was changed without the FW's being addressed. Basically, even if you have a 90 damage calfshot wound, you can just hit the amulet and outrun someone who doesn't have one. With that being said, I still do have a couple myself. It would be nice if they weren't able to be activated on the Chaos server.

AoSP slowing down the aggressor is also bad. When someone is running away, and you hit them, they slow down, but so do you if they have AoSP. It's really not fun chasing someone for miles and miles until they, or you, run out of stamina.

There's so many things that need to be addressed, and without a clear indication of what exactly is going to happen, I'm afraid I will abstain from voting until Rolf comes up with a reasonable solution addressing many of the problems that we have stated.

Edited by Xallo

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I withdrew my yes vote. After a little forum time, game time, and some thought I don't believe this is necessarily a good idea. There seems to be some recovery of population since I was last active. I believe this would hurt the new players to an extent that is not worth the advantages it might offer with Kingdom or alliance options, if deed raiding is simply opened up. It will offer a huge advantage to established players by allowing them to roll over all the new communities. I also am pretty suspicious of these poll numbers considering the number of players that seem to be active on the server.

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I withdrew my yes vote. After a little forum time, game time, and some thought I don't believe this is necessarily a good idea. There seems to be some recovery of population since I was last active. I believe this would hurt the new players to an extent that is not worth the advantages it might offer with Kingdom or alliance options, if deed raiding is simply opened up. It will offer a huge advantage to established players by allowing them to roll over all the new communities. I also am pretty suspicious of these poll numbers considering the number of players that seem to be active on the server.

The server recovery is because there is more pvp action on chaos

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I'd say the numbers seem about right when you consider the number of people who play on the server (not the number online at any given time) along with those who are from other servers in the cluster who have voted.

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I'd say the numbers seem about right when you consider the number of people who play on the server (not the number online at any given time) along with those who are from other servers in the cluster who have voted.

I think the vote might be off aswell, because of alt forum accounts, who knows how many are in there. Wish we could see who voted. (Only names, not answers).

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@Xallo & others. Abstaining and wanting pvp to be imped is dumb. The question seeks to discover whether you want pvp imped. I'll let you work it out with the clues I've given.

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I don't play on Chaos, and I probably won't for the foreseeable future. I voted yes mainly because I'm sick of seeing some of the more vocal chaos players whine and cry on every thread they can. Hopefully making this change will shut them up.

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We wouldn't have been whining about it for so long if we hadn't been shafted for so long...

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The server recovery is because there is more pvp action on chaos

In an Era where relative safety can be obtained on a deed though. The risk factor will go way up if that changes in particular for younger newer communities who I think would really struggle to fortify their deeds without the benefit of experience being raided. I also have been present for plenty of implementations like this following a contentious poll/discussion. I personally do not see this coming to a healthy conclusion but time will tell. I will remain hopeful.

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The basics should be very simple

If in an alliance then everyone in the alliance is on your side, everyone else is an enemy

If not in alliance but in a village then everyone in your village is on your side, everyone else is an enemy

if not in a village then everyone else is your enemy.

If someone is an enemy then they are fair game

If something is owned by an enemy then it is fair game

So long as you can correctly identify enemies then all else is gravy

Need to make sure that people have a way to be converted to new alliances or to join towns. The present code may not permit you to "friend" an enemy (I've never tried it, but should be easy to allow) or allow them to get close to a town to make the offer to join (tower guards will kill enemies near towns).

I highlight that you include no "neutral" option. This is the way to deal with spy alts - new characters on this server had better pre-arrange a local guide!

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In an Era where relative safety can be obtained on a deed though. The risk factor will go way up if that changes in particular for younger newer communities who I think would really struggle to fortify their deeds without the benefit of experience being raided. I also have been present for plenty of implementations like this following a contentious poll/discussion. I personally do not see this coming to a healthy conclusion but time will tell. I will remain hopeful.

For new deeds, they will mostly if not all the time be asked to join the alliance that stumbled by them. Then its the alliance duty to defend them, which is always the case.

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I, and many others who I know of, would make Chaos our second home if Kingdoms & full PvP was returned.

Edited by ashoof

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I don't play on Chaos, and I probably won't for the foreseeable future. I voted yes mainly because I'm sick of seeing some of the more vocal chaos players whine and cry on every thread they can. Hopefully making this change will shut them up.

I think some of the whining was because when Epic was released Wild suddenly became the land that time forgot, I've never played on Wild but for years I was content them doing their thing there and myself doing my thing on Freedom, even when people tossed out the excuses that the population was too low for it to be bothered with some of the Epic servers struggled to double the numbers on that server. God knows us Freedom players can make 18 page threads about enchanted grass nerfs or some poor soul caught having more than 27 horses, I fail to see the need to attempt to kick over their sandcastle.

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Could it be possible to make newly formed deeds have a timer of say (certain amount) days of immunity from bashing/siege to allow the inhabitants to properly fortify their settlement? It would at least give new players some time to build/grind skills/ form alliances while having a safe-ish place to retreat to.

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Could it be possible to make newly formed deeds have a timer of say (certain amount) days of immunity from bashing/siege to allow the inhabitants to properly fortify their settlement? It would at least give new players some time to build/grind skills/ form alliances while having a safe-ish place to retreat to.

That would be a great idea, however we cant forget wardeeds that are placed out of sieged villages etc. Having that immunity would be a huge benefit to new people fortifying a deed, and not so bad for wardeeds placed outside of villages. But my main concern is that to fortify a village properly, a few days is of no use to a new person as those few days wont be adequate enough time to fortify properly. Giving them more time, say 2 weeks, brings into the immortal wardeeds outside of your village that you have to wait 2 weeks while watching your enemy leisurely building their wardeed.

It really is up to the community as a whole as to how they will treat new people.

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I voted yes, I never played Wild, when I started playing Wurm Wild was seen as being in decline, or at best, stagnant, with lower and lower numbers as time went on, and this was before Epic went live.

The only reason I didn't try Wild back then was the low population, so I went to Epic on day one, to try out the PvP servers, and had a great time, not because of the PvP, but in spite of it, the ever present menace of other players in local, the fact that anywhere you went the enemy could turn up and stomp you into the ground along with breaking down what you'd spent time building gave Wurm an added edge.

I also visited Chaos, shortly after it joined freedom isles, and it was a sad and abandoned place, full of the echos of war, but somehow reduced, and neutered.

So bring it back, return the sparks of life it had, give those who lived, and died, and struggled, what they need, give them back the reason for Wild, PvP, find a way to fix it, PMK's, Return the Black Light, anything to make it clear who the enemy is.

Those who want to play Wurm in peace, free from PvP and all it entails need only stay out of Chaos, there are plenty other servers.

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was reading a thread from last week in the Chaos forum, came across this comment from Gaeron which i think highlights an additional need for a new map for chaos.

"pretty much like everything else that's happened in the game, the fb/rt/fa/nimble/coc/woa/hd/kitchen sink swords with excessive enchants. Dirt walls which cannot be flattened because the skill gain changed or the lava floors used to make marsh (I think) with massive slopes. All the issues with massive cave entrances, the abuse of bugs/exploits before reporting them and 1001 other things through the years. Some got fixed then either there was a change in the ruling or it was just ignored. Some rulings I can remember changing two or three times based on which group were leading the largest outcries.

There has never, ever been a consistent message or series of GM actions in this game as you well know. Its always been one of the games greatest lacks and I've considered the "window of opportunity" concept to be one of the dumbest and laziest possible."

This is one major flaw in the chaos map itself and will hinder efforts to increase the population from those ppl who not lucky enough to get in while the getting was good. Now i completely understand that those benifiting from these windows of opportunity will WANT to keep the old map, but it will be to their own detriment as that would be a factor that would contribute to population attrition.

Of course ppl have spent insane amounts of time and money into this map, and it does have a very rich history. Personally I like the chaos map and most of my best wurm memories are there (not to mention the site of the original Rearden Steel). The truth is Wurm is entering a new era and some old things must wither away to create new and possibly more wonderful things. Those who desperately cling to the past will miss out on the future.

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[17:39:30] 95 other players are online. You are on Chaos (1492 totally in Wurm).

Chaos ain't dead!

Edited by Sharkin

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Its a shame half of the player count is non prem - But even still its the largest ive seen online at any given time for at least a year or so :)

Cant wait to see Rolfs responce tomorrow - Hoping he says okay to PMK's :D

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choas aint dead its just borning atm ,me for one will sell up and move back if something is sorted and i can name a whole bunch of others waiting for this to happen who have settled on freedom servers ,give it a few weeks after rolf sorts it ,time for folk to disband/sell deeds and wild will fill up again ,yes its wild ,alway will be wild rename it all you like but wild is wild

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