Take Meat From Animals On A Deed

[yarnevk 257]

If, as you say, meat farms make it impossible for you to get FS because the mobs in the area vanish....then how is it possible for a meat farm to exist?

Obviously mobs continue to spawn in a deeded area because the meat farm keeps getting the same amount of animals every day. Mobs do not spawn on a deed, they come from the wild. The simple fact is if you are doing the templars job of being a hunter, patrolling their perimeter and outside in the wilds, that all that meat on the meat farm could have been your kills and your meat. Stop complaining that the templar is a better hunter than you, if you have 70FS then you have the ability to deprive them of mobs entirely and be happily hunting all day long.

Yes if they get 10 mobs a day that means you have to wait a hour or two or even three to get a mob, just like the templar did, and just like hunting is in real life. Get tracking and stop complaining using illogical arguments, because in the time you spent writing that post your neighbors templar killed another mob that could have been your kill. You could simply make the meat farm go out of business and corner the market for yourself, all it requires is a village with a range of time-zone hunters to provide time coverage surrounding the meat farm and pinching of its supply of mobs. The three spiders my templar got today? I saw them lurking in the off-deed woods when I walked my deed border picking up the yesterdays guard kills. If I was a hunter that would have been three spider kills for me.

Templars exist to hunt for the same reason that PVE servers exist alongside a PVP game. Some people simply do not want, do not like, nor do they want to be forced to fight. They are fine with the element of danger being there from mobs, they just simply prefer to run for their lives, risking losing stuff from dropping or getting lost and eaten. It does not require them to be a hunter to experience that danger the moment they step off their deed to get resources that do not exist on their deed. Your proposal that doubles their monthly subscription rate in hopes they stop hiring templars is not going to increase your hunting, it is not going to matter if the templar is not there if you are such a poor hunter that you cannot intercept the mobs where the templar does not hunt to begin with.

Edited January 8, 2013 by yarnevk

[Silures 91]

Would someone tell me the point of mob farms, selling meals?

[Elen 1,013]

How about if a guard of any type hits the npc mob there is no corpse or skillgains ? All problems solved.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Elen

[yarnevk 257]

No it does not solve problems because you just told the player that is not wanting to be a hunter, that they need no longer play the game. Rolf makes a lot of money from guards, and it is not because they leave the lights on or because they repair fences something that saves you a chore monthly. It is because they provide daily meat without requiring you to play Hunters Online, yet at the same time he balances the spawns so there is always the same number of mobs out there every day, so those that actually do want to hunt can play that game.

The argument that they spawned across the map over there is nonsense, even if that is true, then the deed across the maps kills are spawning back over here.

Edited January 8, 2013 by yarnevk

[yarnevk 257]

Would someone tell me the point of mob farms, selling meals?

Cooked meat stays preserved in food storage bins, making bulk sale possible. And it is the balanced respawns that allows them to stay in daily business. Only a hunter killing mobs in the meat farms perimeter or nearby wilds would actually harm a meat farms biz, because templars do not kill off-deed. They cannot wander and track the mobs like a player can do.

Edited January 8, 2013 by yarnevk

[Elen 1,013]

No it does not solve problems

Beg strangers to give you their meat. All problems solved

Edited January 8, 2013 by Elen

[Vroomfondel 1,128]

This isn't true. Having one deed to the left, and another at the right, with ghosts, will effectively reduce the available animal count in the area. They may spawn elsewhere, and hide in abandoned forests then. But a high percentage of the local beasts will fall prey to those NPCs, and you'll have to do major journeys to find something to train your FS on. (Hint: I have my 70 FS, for sure. But I realize the problems my newer villagers have now, too.)

You are not seeing the problem correctly. It is not the guards killing animals, it's the fact that you live in an area of several villages. Wild animals do not spawn ondeed except in caves. They have to spawn on open land and then wander ondeed to get killed. If you have a lot of deeds nearby, then there is very little open space for spawning. Face it, your problem is that you live in a crowded area and will need to actually go out hunting for a kill, not wait for it to wander by.

[Silures 91]

Cooked meat stays preserved in food storage bins, making bulk sale possible. And it is the balanced respawns that allows them to stay in daily business. Only a hunter killing mobs in the meat farms perimeter or nearby wilds would actually harm a meat farms biz, because templars do not kill off-deed. They cannot wander and track the mobs like a player can do.

Thanks but are you aware of how much meat you can get in an hour of fun hunting? Only seen one meat farm back on Exodus and thought it was absurd then and still do. Your choice I suppose but I really still can't see the point. Sounds like the shovel crew are the quiet revolution. Bet it's satisfying

<3 Wurm

[Joanavon 553]

Remove any and all products from anything killed soely by templars without a single landed or attempted hit by a player. Meat factories are stopped and deed rights are unaltered. Perfect.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Joanavon

[Xandra 353]

Hi,

Remove any and all products from anything killed soely by templars without a single landed or attempted hit by a player. Meat factories are stopped and deed rights are unaltered. Perfect.

I could live with this.

Just, on the other side, a "hunting templar" could prove very worthy to the first month of a new players first deed, right? So I'd not stop it completely, I'd instead not make it the default, and I'd add a price tag.

In my book NPC's doing a players duty don't fit the sandbox style of this game (ignoring PvP that should have a different rule set anyways).

In my book having a templar is not desirable even for a newbie, because it will steal the newbies (and its neighbors) fighting skills, thus creating a whimp that cannot care of itself in the lands of Wurm.

And in my book creating a templar without the explicit consent of the neighbors can be, dependent of the situation, an act that seriously might hinder the gaming experience of the neighbors, and thus could be named griefing.

But I understand that there are people that just want to craft and build in peace and happiness, and want to omit the fighting part of Wurm. But there's walls to reach this, and as long as the stupid wall breaking mobs would be stopped, this would be a most easy solution.

As I mentioned a few posts above, there should be a basic templar that comes with the deed, at no additional cost. That fills lamps, repairs walls, and responds to KoS (and enemy kingdom players, for PvP). But that doesn't care about the young scared rat that made the mistake to come too close.

Anything more should have a price tag, and the price should reflect the bonus gained.

My villagers get reaped a lot of fight skill due to the empty deed (token and templar only) over there placed wisely next to a few spawns and in an area where they come down the hill, whose outer tiles are littered with corpses. Isn't it just a small compensation when we use this to get at least a bit of butchering skill, instead? Using most skill-yielding tools, for sure?

I understand we'll never get consent of this. But I'd ask the other party to at least try to understand my arguments, at least in the way I try with theirs.

Have fun!

[yarnevk 257]

Not so perfect since wurms dev income goes down the drain as players stop buying templars since the only real reason is for the meat for those who do not want to fight, since you can build an area guard tower yourself for safety. Fence fixing and lamp filling are only occasional chores and the templars are just said to do that, you do not actually need one as that comes out of deed upkeep not from guard cost.

The simple fact is any meat farm is taking advantage of renewable spawns, so hunters crying there is nothing to fight is BS. Go stand outside the meat farm and fight for all the meat. That is how you stop a meat factory without griefing inhabited deed owners. Go stand up the hill and catch the mobs before the step on the deed. They do not warp onto the deed, they spawn away from it and walk down to it. You can even lay out your own meat traps to draw them to somewhere more convenient.

First you say your neighbor griefed the spawns from happening, then you say their border is littered with corpses. Simple fact is those corpses would not exist if the spawns were broken. Major illogical argument there. And them griefing you from fight skill? You just said the mobs are spawning up the hill, so get your lazy butts up the hill and lay some meat traps and hunt. You can steal every single one of those mobs by hunting them outside the perimeter rather than griefing the deed for butcher skills, you can pinch off its meat supply and take it for itself.

So why are you not hunting, the meat is there in the wildlands for you to take, you just need to be able to kill it. You express the want to hunt, that you do not want a templar doing it for you. So stop butchering the templars kills and start hunting. Every mob the templar takes is further demonstration of your failure as a hunter.

There is no argument of yours to understand, for you are not being logical. Deeds kill spawns you say, yet you say the neighbor is griefing you with corpses from these supposedly non-existant spawns, so you butcher them for the griefing skillz, yet you are such a lazy hunter you cannot get up the hill and hunt. Start hunting and stop arguing nonsense. Why is it the deed templar who is restricted to only hunting on deed a so much better hunter than you who can track and go off deed where the spawns actually are? Until you have an answer for that, your argument has no place in this discussion.

Edited January 9, 2013 by yarnevk

[Joanavon 553]

I've yet to hear what exactly is the reason the people who have paid to slap down a token and a templar for the expressed purpose of farming mass quantities of meat and animal products is. What reason could justify the costs associated with these Operations. Intuition tells me that its kept... Quiet... for a reason.

Also:

I too when i lived on freedom near one of these Operations butchered all the corpses i could find all the time with a 2ql shovel. After 2 weeks the very grumpy owner disbanded the deed. Was fun.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Joanavon

[yarnevk 257]

That was answered above, cooked meat is a FSB bulk item. Not worked out the finances but surely the templar in a month gets 1s worth of meat....otherwise these places could not exist, though of course there is also upkeep which can be much higher than 1s. Obviously most templars are being hired because players that do not want to hunt consider that 1s worth it. Maybe instead the meat farm uses the meat to feed their hell hound or hog farm? I am not one of them so I do not speak for them, beyond deed or lose it rules allow them to run a meat farm.

At least you are honest (as was RomaN) that you intentionally grief a meat farm with a low QL shovel so they cannot obtain any meat. The issue is saying they instead are stealing your Fight Skill or ability to obtain meat for yourself, which is simply illogical; if the meat farm templar can kill mobs, then that means the mobs do exist and you could be luring (meat trap), pulling (by running them) and then fighting the mobs before the meat farm templar who is restricted to deed boundaries can get to them. That should be a more rewarding form of griefing because it pinches off the meat farm supply entirely, and you get to keep the meat and byproducts harvested with a decent butcher knife, and it means you and your village of hunters can have a field day every day doing what you like to do which is hunt.

Do it to a neighbor that is just trying to feed themselves and his dog while he blacksmiths then it makes you an outright griefer. Just because you have a thing against a meat farm existing, does not mean you should ban templars from hunting and leaving corpses or insist you have a right to badly butcher. Change it so you can no longer butcher a templars kills unless you are the deed owner (and it should be variable permission just like any other deed activity like logging), then you can still grief the meat farm, you just actually have to get out and hunt and make the kills before they get to the templar. The meat farmer might even decide to pay you rather than just up and leave, and drop the meat farm deed with its expensive upkeep.

Edited January 9, 2013 by yarnevk

[Theodis 339]

I find it kinda silly that every suggestion for windmills get shot down over and over because players don't want automation yet the automated production of meat and animal products from templars gets defended because it's a deed owners right and if they don't want to have to hunt they shouldn't. I'm so sick of making bricks and planks. Can I pay my templars to do it?

[Hussars 511]

For the math on the income from meat milling.

Deed = 10s

Base Upkeep for the year = +10s

ST = +2s to hire +1s/mo

Total for a year = 34s approximately (yeah I know, the numbers are a bit off, but keeping it simple here)

Meet, cooked .30kg weight (bsb'd) 2s per 1k units (last posted price in Market).

So in 12 months, if you can produce at least 1500 units of cooked meat /mo you are roughly breaking even. With uncooked meat varying weight, worst case is roughly 10 kills a day to break even on the first year. After this, you only need to maintain a monthly income of 1s to break even (@500 [.30 weight] cooked meat)

This is before any other income from other means.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Hussars

[KunAlt 844]

For the math on the income from meat milling.

Deed = 10s

Base Upkeep for the year = +10s

ST = +2s to hire +1s/mo

Total for a year = 34s approximately (yeah I know, the numbers are a bit off, but keeping it simple here)

Meet, cooked .30kg weight (bsb'd) 2s per 1k units (last posted price in Market).

So in 12 months, if you can produce at least 1500 units of cooked meat /mo you are roughly breaking even. With uncooked meat varying weight, worst case is roughly 10 kills a day to break even on the first year. After this, you only need to maintain a monthly income of 1s to break even (@500 [.30 weight] cooked meat)

This is before any other income from other means.

I´m pretty sure it is economically rewarding, if not, no one will be doing it, but most of meat factories i´ve meet in the past are way larger than the min size, and usually run min 2 templars and in some cases 3 (mostly in trols spawn zones).

[Hussars 511]

I´m pretty sure it is economically rewarding, if not, no one will be doing it, but most of meat factories i´ve meet in the past are way larger than the min size, and usually run min 2 templars and in some cases 3 (mostly in trols spawn zones).

Didn't say it wasn't economical, just that it's not hard to do, and like most things in Wurm, cheaper (more profit) the longer it goes. If you're in an area with a higher spawn rate, and/or also hunt, it's really easy to hit the minimum numbers if you get high weight meat creatures (trolls, gators, etc...) or fast spawn like spiders.

But that is a whole other thread of discussion lol.

In general and not targetted at anyone specifically.

On "taking meat from others"; If it is "stealing" to pick it up after it is butchered, to cut trees, mine ore, or to "harvest"/gather any other resource based on deed permissions, why is it okay to harvest meat that fell on their deed for any reason?

Potential skill gains "lost" applies to all these other harvest actions as well, and of an impact of larger "lost skill" since the source tends to be a larger supply/allow for more actions.

Someone break it down for me since I seem to be looking at this as apples to apples.. and there appears to be an orange in the math for others...

It really does come off as a broken process/oversight due to so many changes in the system over the years. Wasn't the change on auto loot to inventory done before the new deed/permission system was introduced?

::Edit insert::

And before anyone says it's free meat, it was at least 10s to buy the settlement form, to place a minimum sized deed, and hire the Templar. As said before, even when looking at it over a year, it's not free.

You really want to stop the meat mills, stop buying the damned meat and things made from it for skilling your alts.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Hussars

[Ronnie 64]

Lazy ppl and newbs will always cry for hand outs

-1

[Alyeska 2,621]

I find it kinda silly that every suggestion for windmills get shot down over and over because players don't want automation yet the automated production of meat and animal products from templars gets defended because it's a deed owners right and if they don't want to have to hunt they shouldn't. I'm so sick of making bricks and planks. Can I pay my templars to do it?

This is exactly my thought. Any suggestion about npc servants, ingame children to perform actions for you get shot down and burnt to the ground, becuase that wouldn't be fair and ruin the game. Windmills to perform actions like sawing planks or milling grains are not fair. Even for spinning wheels people have said no, it has to be done by hand.

But it is okay to have a templar raking in corpses for you while you're not even logged in, and he is doing so 24/7? Sorry, 1s a month is a measly cost to pay for a slave to do your dirty work, which you can sell the benefits of. A well placed meat farm can easily bring in 500+ meat a month, which would cover its own cost.

Animals stop being stupid idiots that walk into their own death for no apperant reason. It's stupid and should be fixed.

As long as meat farms exist and as long as people can use their templar for a steady supply of corpses (and even sell for a profit) while logged off, I say what I have said before; free game for all - and I too will do my best to make these meat farms as nonrewarding as I can. Once the animal pathing gets fixed, then by all means, corpses should be 100% protected by the deed. No butchering, no picking up items out of them. It used to be so where animals would avoid deeds like the plague, they wouldn't even follow players ondeed. It doesn't have to go back to that extreme end of the spectrum but a middle ground between that and where we are now would be marvelous. Aggresive animals will not go onto guarded deeds unless the are chasing a player. Legit villages with active resident get protection and get corpses, meat farms will be made nearly impossible, and there will be wildlife around for people to enjoy.

I'm the complete opposite of a lazy hunter but to travel 8+ hours to go hunting is ridiculous.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Alyeska

[Ronnie 64]

You havnt been to a slaughter house or seen wolfs attacking small camp sights have you.

Anamils wonder into cities as well. And get hit by cars. Should we breed that out of them too.

[Alyeska 2,621]

You havnt been to a slaughter house or seen wolfs attacking small camp sights have you.

Anamils wonder into cities as well. And get hit by cars. Should we breed that out of them too.

Thank god real life doesn't have spirit templars then, or all of our modern day villages would be covered in dead animals nobody but the mayor could pick up.

[Hussars 511]

Don't take this personally, but I equate it to Priest AFK faith/favor gains, or Trader draining.

It is a gameplay annoyance element people have found ways to use or bypass creatively. Like traders and the ease of which you can gain silver. There is an inital investment made, there is upkeep, and there is a return.

Again, not free resource, but easy to gain.

Lets say they change animal pathing, so you simply stand an alt at the edge of the deeded land and the templar still kills the mob. Same result, no more effort involved for most players.

So now we need to change the pathing further to disallow the animal from entering perims as well. So those folks complaining will have to go even further to get their hunt on. I'd also expect those folks accussed of "griefing" hunters with meat mill deeds, to min size those same deeds (or plant new ones) with insane perim areas.

some fun with wurmtools.com

2 months of no hunting on a 41tile X 41 tile area for 10s.

(5x5deed=11 x 11 tiles) + 15 perim tiles on each edge.

or

for about twice the price, 61 tilesx 61 tiles.

(5x5 deed= 11 x 11 tiles) + 25 tiles on each edge

::edit insert:: Also, would make guard towers mostly useless as well since animals would only follow you on deed/perim. With a lot of deeds, you have mostly what you need on your land. So never have to leave for anything other than meat, unless you know, raise cattle/deer/dogs/etc...

So we would likely see a drop in revenue from the loss of ST, but a possible gain from increased perim/deed sizes, hunters would likely have to go even further to hunt, but we'd lose those meat mills. Also, make sure you fix the "on deed" flag for mines, so the spawns in mines are removed from on deed/perim as well please.

I'm in for that (no seriously, I'd be down for this change)

Edited January 10, 2013 by Hussars

[yarnevk 257]

Any hunter can have fun depriving meat farms of their entire supply, and that is get out and hunt in their perimeter and just outside it. Or if you are a meat buyer, simply stop buying the meat and eliminate the demand. End of meat farms as they will no longer be profitable even though they are possible. Without any change to the system only a change in behavior.

It does not require you to be able to butcher the meat on their deed to end a meat farm.

You cannot compare hiring a NPC for hunting to bulk work tasks at all, all the bulk work tasks are something any noob can do and it thus provides entry level work for those who do not want to pay for the game from those who do want to pay for the game. It does not make them a slave because they are free to work on it whenever they want and do something else. The only thing that matters is the bin is full. They do not need to be working 24/7 on filling that bin unless they have a need to get paid faster, but they do so out of their own free will.

A noob cannot hunt those things that a templar can. Only good fighters can do that, and no good fighter wants to limit his game to standing on one persons deed day and night no matter how much hunting they get to do, as they have absolutely no freedom to do what they want when they want. They would not even be allowed to leave the deed borders. It is the exact same reason we have NPC merchants that you can buy, because nobody wants to play a game where they stand in a shop and never leave just in case somebody might come buy. But you are arguing to eliminate merchants and traders if you argue to get rid of templars, for they all fulfill the same function, which is to be available doing their job 24/7 since no other player wants to commit to that schedule. NPC of these sort are there because this is not the real world where everyone lives in the same time zone as their neighbors, they are an accomodation to the MMO reality that those that live in virtual worlds live across real world time zones even when they are neighbors, and you cannot always be on when someone else is on and off. Jobs that require you to be bound in time and space are perfect jobs for an NPC.

Edited January 10, 2013 by yarnevk

[Shrimpiie 3,665]

4.)

Tbh, I can live with it. I do this on deeds that are abandoned most of the time, where once in a week someone comes and collects the meat. They are stealing my villagers FS and are bringing down the prices, so I get a bit of butchering of them. Sounds fair, right?

As you might know, low QL tools can bring a lot more skill!

No, as I already stated which you can't seem to grasp is that you can travel beyond the edge of your area to fight a few mobs 0.0

I know it is an alien concept but it isn't stealing FS when you have full capacity to travel 100 tiles >.<

And nor am I defending a meat farm in the first place, it's just your complete lazyness to travel a little ways to get some food

Edited January 10, 2013 by Shrimpiie

[yarnevk 257]

Yet they are capable of traveling to butcher the mobs at the meat farm, but apparently incapable of traveling to hunt the mobs just outside the meat farm, letting a paid for templar 'steal' their fight skills, so that they can complain about that and somehow justify their butchering.....

Edited January 10, 2013 by yarnevk