Overhaul Of Food And Cooking.

[mrcrowz 9]

I'm sure I don't have to tell you, cooking is somewhat of a joke, as it had been since the beginning of wurm. It has completely no depth, no challenge, no fun, and most importantly, no incentive beyond keeping yourself fed. There are quite a few different foodstuffs available, but most of the time cooking is limited to stew, casserole, and meal, simply because the rest have no point. What's the point of tea, porridge, bread, cheese, soup and goulash, beyond making more meals and being relegated to low nutrition, novelty, ignored foods? Right now it seems cooking is nothing more than a grinding skill, one that is as brainless as it is boring. It doesn't do justice to one of the most important of skills.

With the recent release of 1.0, i'm hoping Rolf and team will have time to look beyond the big picture (multi-stories, animations, combat, etc) and add flavour to existing skills and make them more rewarding and more fun to use and not just "grind for the sake of grinding"

I've listed a few possible changes to the cooking system below:

1) Recipes

Beyond the generic "meal", dishes actually have names attached to them. Do away with the terms "meal", "casserole" and "stew", and give specific combinations of foodstuffs a name. The more complex the recipe, the higher its difficulty, which encourages experimenting with recipes to maximize skill gain with higher HFC. It also takes away the impossibility that a sprig of oregano and parsley as a dish can actually feed you.

For example, a fish cooked in a pan with a potato could become "fish and chips". Putting cheese, dough, a cooked meat and probably an onion in a pan would produce "lasagna". Putting an unbutchered chicken corpse in a sauce pan with maybe oregano (or another herb) should make "whole spring chicken".

Not every single dish cooked must be a unique recipe. Cooking beef would produce a steak, but adding a vegetable or herb would create "steak with <vegetable/herb>". Cooking water, milk and something else in a cauldron will produce a "cream of chicken/onion/mushroom/catfish/whatever". Its a small gesture, but its still a lot more descriptive than just "meal".

Of course, the variety of recipes is completely up to the dev team. But if there is ever a way to have player-created recipes, that will be epic. Perhaps each ingredient can be assigned a certain "luxury" value which in turn determines the difficulty and quality of the resultant dish. And with the possibility of publishing recipes on papyrus, the possibilities are endless.

2) Cooking overhaul and portions

Cooking shouldn't be a game of watching the kettle boil. Neither should it be overly complex such that it becomes tedious instead. A simple solution is to give different recipes a "sweet spot" during cooking, before and after which food will be of lower quality. This will be a simulation of under-cooking and over-cooking/burning food. Food which is perfectly cooked may give additional bonuses including greatly increased QL.

And this is where HFC skill (and in fact all other cooking subskills as explained later) can come into play. A higher HFC not only determines the base QL (Ql should be be determined by a range of factors not excluding ingredient quality and chef skill), but also when the game will inform you when food is cooked, as well as the window of time when the sweet spot can be attained.

For example, below 10 HFC, one will only be able to tell a dish's readiness when the ingredients turn into the dish in question.

From 10-20 HFC, an overlay will appear on a cooking dish telling you whether is it undercooked, acceptably cooked or overcooked.

From 30 HFC onwards, the overlay becomes more specific until about 50 skill when it will tell you when the dish has hit its sweet spot, something along the lines of: "This dish is now perfectly cooked."

Higher difficulty dishes will have a smaller window for cooking it well and the "sweet spot", so those with lower skill still can try cooking them, but they won't be as successful.

Due to the difficulty of simultaneously cooking many dishes, this encourages chefs to focus their attention on one dish, rather than the current cramming of meals in an oven to cook. More skilled chefs might be able to handle slightly more dishes since their window is larger and can afford a bit more error.

There should also be an option for portioning meals, especially larger ones. Lower skilled chefs can't pump out as many meals, but they can focus on cooking one well done, larger meal (think whole roasted meats) then portioning it out into similarly well done meals. Cooking time should be directly proportional to the size of the dish being prepared so as to prevent churning out of large quantities of food in a short time.

Do note that this system of "sweet spot" should still be possible to reach for lower skilled chefs. They just don't have the guide of an accurate overlay, but with experience and timing they can still produce a perfectly cooked meal.

3) Don't ignore the subskills!

I don't believe medieval baking consists of just bread. Even the wurmian cake is just bread with milk. If that's the case, then I bake "cakes" for breakfast everyday

Pastry is common in medieval times, commonly seen in pies and other confectioneries. Even the basic cake (read, real cake) is a common treat. I feel baking should have the same cooking system as HFC, so I won't elaborate too much beyond the fact that I would love some pie in my wurm.

Moving on, beverages should be an vital part of wurm cooking as well not just because there are so many (useless) types at the moment, but also that they they are so important to roleplay in wurm (what's medieval without wine, women and song?) I appreciate the addition of wine as a means of adding variety, but its still not enough. Learning from wine, beverages are also another way to impart bonuses and other effects on players.

4) Bartenders

We have NPC traders and merchants, so why not NPC bartenders? Rather than having just the "inns" we see that are completely devoid of life, give them a bartender, someone who can sell your dishes and drinks. What's the point of cooking good food if you can't share your creations? Give inns a niche by providing all bartender-sold food a bonus to happiness (see suggestion No.5).

They should be hire-able in the same way a merchant is, and maybe costing a bit less due to the reduced profit margin of food. This is not to say all food should be cheap, magnificently cooked food which imparts many bonuses should be priced as such to give good chefs a way to make a profit.

5) Nutrition and happiness

In my opinion, the current nutrition bonus system is flawed in that it doesn't represent the psychological effects that food has on us. I'm not going into that spiritual "experience your food" ######, just trying to drive across a simple point: good food makes people happy, eating the same thing over and over does not.

I'm still not very sure how nutrition can be revamped at this point, but a simple idea I have is a happiness bar. 0% represents a neutral mood, while +/- 100% will represent euphoria and suicidal tendencies respectively. Since a happy person is more productive, +ve happiness can net increased skill gain, and maybe some other benefits, inverse is true for -ve happiness. Eating high QL, high difficulty (lets assume difficulty corresponds to luxury) food increases happiness. While eating modest food will neither increase nor decrease happiness too much, eating the same dish multiple times will drive it down greatly (less so for higher QL meals). Perhaps happiness can be made to work in conjunction with other non-food factors. (Maybe an environment score?)

Condiments such as salt, sugar and herbs could have a positive effect on happiness when dishes that contain them are eaten. Eating food together with certain beverages (preferably alcoholic) should also increase happiness.

Even with a happiness system, I still feel the nutrition bar is insufficient and unrealistic. Do share your suggestions on how it can be improved.

Sorry for the TL;DR, but I just feel that there's so much leashed potential in wurmian cooking. I don't want to look at an onion and think, "good for a meal". I want to pick up any vegetable and think of how it synergises with other ingredients, of all the possible dishes I can prepare and share.

I don't want cooking to be just another grinding skill, we already have smithing and carpentry for that.

[Karrde 336]

Oh yeah, at the very least, more herbs, vegetables, fruits, and cooked items in general.

[Elen 1,013]

since its still pretty recent I figure linking this closely related suggestion might provide some more info on the subject

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/68040-redo-the-nutrition-system/

certainly a -1 from me to the additional NPCs part though, rather see food as a possible player economy option rather than more npcs taking our jobs

Edited January 3, 2013 by Elen

[Klaa 4,872]

Aye NPCs should be limited in Wurm imho so things are more player-driven. On the other hand to encourage such player interaction some NPCs are needed, after all not everyone can be awake 24/7.

If merchants could sell filled containers, it would enable them to function as bartenders, among other possibilities. However, it introduces a problem of them being used as cheap nondecay food storage, decay rates would need adjusting to not be too fast while also not too slow.

On a partially related note, Ive always felt the bartender NPC should be able to feed more experienced players in exchange for coin (If Rolf needs another moneysink, there ya go). In addition such a version could be player-placeable like a trader, perhaps even around the same price.

[Zakerak 442]

Great ideas .... for creating another game

... but sorry, it all looks like terrible disturbance from main goals ...

Let's say I want to build house, but I will spend few hours in kitchen to cook ideal food, to feel happy, to build best house

Or I can ride half hour there and half back home to eat meal in best restaurant on server, to be well feeded and happy to build best house?

NO, I'm absolutelly sure I do not want this

but as motive for new game, nice ideas, sure

[mrcrowz 9]

since its still pretty recent I figure linking this closely related suggestion might provide some more info on the subject http://forum.wurmonl...trition-system/ certainly a -1 from me to the additional NPCs part though, rather see food as a possible player economy option rather than more npcs taking our jobs

I would be inclined to agree with you if there are actually people trading in meals, but the reality is that hardly anyone does, due to the lack of incentive to buy something they can cook themselves. Since the idea of recipes make skilled cooks much more in demand, they need a medium they can trade through, much like a merchant. Plus, a player can't be playing shopkeeper the whole time, and with the short expiry date of their dishes, I believe an NPC is necessary in this context.

I understand that an NPC may not appeal to everyone, so please do critique my other ideas as well.

Aye NPCs should be limited in Wurm imho so things are more player-driven. On the other hand to encourage such player interaction some NPCs are needed, after all not everyone can be awake 24/7. If merchants could sell filled containers, it would enable them to function as bartenders, among other possibilities. However, it introduces a problem of them being used as cheap nondecay food storage, decay rates would need adjusting to not be too fast while also not too slow. On a partially related note, Ive always felt the bartender NPC should be able to feed more experienced players in exchange for coin (If Rolf needs another moneysink, there ya go). In addition such a version could be player-placeable like a trader, perhaps even around the same price.

Took the words from my mouth.

Food should last about as long as they do in barrels as they do on bartenders. Since food is a consumable, I believe they'll sell faster than other goods like tools etc and as such decay shouldn't pose too much trouble.

Great ideas .... for creating another game ... but sorry, it all looks like terrible disturbance from main goals ... Let's say I want to build house, but I will spend few hours in kitchen to cook ideal food, to feel happy, to build best house Or I can ride half hour there and half back home to eat meal in best restaurant on server, to be well feeded and happy to build best house? NO, I'm absolutelly sure I do not want this but as motive for new game, nice ideas, sure

Sorry, I don't quite understand your point. Purchasing food from another's business serves 2 purposes, for those who don't want to cook, and those who don't have the skill to do it well. Like I mentioned, good food will impart +ve bonuses, so they will be highly sought after. Its much like tools and weapons, you either smith them yourself or buy them from someone who can do it much better + enchants.

May I know what your "main goals" refer to?

Edited January 3, 2013 by mrcrowz

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[Reylaark 1,100]

+/- 1

I do wish there was more diversity in cooking. Right now, meals are pretty much the only thing that make any sense for me to cook. A simple fix might be one similar to how diversity in roads are proposed. With roads, the proposal was to make all the more complex types have the same speed so people won't just always choose "the fastest."

One idea might be to make food linked more to the number of ingredients than the particular type. I've eaten some Belgian Stews (Carbonnade) that are very nutritious! A good sandwich can also go a long way irl.

The idea of having individual named plates such as fish&chips scares me a little from a database standpoint. All those new and unique dishes would need to be stored, accessed, etc. I hate lag .

Being able to wrap food in some way to make it available for sale would be great. I would also rather see it remain player-driven as much as possible.

Cooking with many ingredients and experimenting isn't something the grinders will want. I get that. Those wishing to reach 80 HFC in one afternoon would be adversely affected. Ok. But for those of us who enjoy the more creative side of Wurm, diversifying HFC a little would be really awesome.

Another thought, tie the food type to the season.

Stews would be more nutritious when there is snow on the ground.

A fish plate might be better suited to summer than a stew would be, etc.

[Zakerak 442]

Sorry, I don't quite understand your point. Purchasing food from another's business serves 2 purposes, for those who don't want to cook, and those who don't have the skill to do it well. Like I mentioned, good food will impart +ve bonuses, so they will be highly sought after. Its much like tools and weapons, you either smith them yourself or buy them from someone who can do it much better + enchants.

May I know what your "main goals" refer to?

Did you ever saw what happen with food bar in 30 minutes of riding? Personally, I'm used keep food and water bars above 95%. I have high ql meals in my inventory whole play time. Do you think some great cook will happily stay by my side to sell me great meal every 10-20 minutes? Of course in reasonable price. I can buy weapon once per year for let say 2s. So comparable price for food for year should be somewhere around that price ... so 2s / 365 days * 15 hours * 3-6 times per hour ... 16000-30000 meals for 2-3s

Do you want to be my personal cook? I have no objections, if you will sell food to others too, just stay close to me, so I can buy your food anytime I need ... I think not. it is not your idea of playing wurm.

And I do not want cook every single meal every day before I will start doing something planned for that day. Prepare once a week 100 meals in ten minutes is enough for me. If I want play cooking game there is Pizza tycoon or other games, sorry

Edited January 3, 2013 by Zakerak

[Klaa 4,872]

Something thats come up before even in its own dedicated threads... fish.

At the very least some means of being able to store this in a foodbin. Whether it be smoking, salted, dried, cooking, buccan'ed fillets, etc.

[yarnevk 257]

Want a very simple fix without a lot of complexity? Make nutrition a rolling average to smooth out the highs and lows. We already have a lot of different ingredients to make, they just never get eaten because you would take too much off a nutrition hit. (exception to rolling average should be refreshes and starving).

There does not need to be complex recipe databases, simply allow the cook to rename the dish away from the autoname.

The occasional handful of berries is good for you not bad for you, it is a diet of berries that is bad for you. Nutrition should not be about your last meal it should be about your diet. Its like your power bill that is smoothed out every month. You don't feel the monthly bill of the AC in summer nor the heat in winter because it is balanced with spring and fall where it is unused.

Edited January 3, 2013 by yarnevk

[mrcrowz 9]

Want a very simple fix without a lot of complexity? Make nutrition a rolling average to smooth out the highs and lows. We already have a lot of different ingredients to make, they just never get eaten because you would take too much off a nutrition hit. (exception to rolling average should be refreshes and starving).

There does not need to be complex recipe databases, simply allow the cook to rename the dish away from the autoname.

The occasional handful of berries is good for you not bad for you, it is a diet of berries that is bad for you. Nutrition should not be about your last meal it should be about your diet. Its like your power bill that is smoothed out every month. You don't feel the monthly bill of the AC in summer nor the heat in winter because it is balanced with spring and fall where it is unused.

I understand why you guys aren't so hot for preset recipes. Allowing the chef to name his own dish would be great, but there needs to be a system to decide what dish is better than than which, otherwise there's no difference between a common fish stew and "seafood ala supreme".

[Aariez 87]

Another suggestion may be to give diminishing returns on the same food choice. For instance, if I eat the same food within 5 eating sessions, I'll only get half the benefit ... say because I'm bored of it, or my body doesn't need the same type of nutrition.

[Bachus 462]

A lot of good ideas here but you missed one.

I want Pie!

Preferably without the nutrition hit cake gives you because as it has been pointed out fruit is nutritious IRL and Pie can be a good supplement to your diet in moderation.

I also agree with the variation of diet giving a bonus eating meat and pumpkin every day is just as boring as cooking the same thing every day. For those that do not wish to vary their meals make it so that it remains the same if you do not vary ingredients but there is a small bonus if you do.

[yarnevk 257]

but there needs to be a system to decide what dish is better than than which

That is what QL and DMG is for, you do not need a recipe database to do this. The QL and DMG can also go into the auto naming system, and actually call it Supreme or Spoiled.

Edited January 3, 2013 by yarnevk

[Edzwarr 197]

+1 to this, Also I would love to see bee keeping implemented for honey in order to make MEAD ! And have it increase fight skill and body strength just like wine.

[yarnevk 257]

A lot of good ideas here but you missed one.

I want Pie!

Preferably without the nutrition hit cake gives you because as it has been pointed out fruit is nutritious IRL and Pie can be a good supplement to your diet in moderation.

I also agree with the variation of diet giving a bonus eating meat and pumpkin every day is just as boring as cooking the same thing every day. For those that do not wish to vary their meals make it so that it remains the same if you do not vary ingredients but there is a small bonus if you do.

A friend makes cakes for fun, but does not give them to people because nobody wants to take the nutrition hit to eat one. Simple rolling average would solve that problem, eat nothing but cake you have a problem. Let me eat cake occasionally and then since they are already there people will make more of them just for fun. Make it out of strawberries and rename it My Strawberrry Shortcake. This is not as complex as a food pyramid system monitoring your carbs, fats, proteins, veggies and fruits would be, but will allow one to vary meals as long as they have overall a good balance. Now I can have a bison steak and fries one day catfish broiled in herbs the next and not harm myself compared to eating cooked meat and pumpkin every day.

The one place we should expend database on, is get rid of generic cooked meat in the fsb. I want to know I am eating cooked croc or cooked spider. The system for fruit juices already can handle naming mixtures, that can be adapted for meat dishes, like you can already get logs in bsb, or open up to different types of logs. These are very very simple database changes of rolling nutrition average and named storage, that would go a long way to utilizing the flexibility that is already there in the cooking system without needing to actually make it more complex.

Edited January 3, 2013 by yarnevk

[mrcrowz 9]

That is what QL and DMG is for, you do not need a recipe database to do this. The QL and DMG can also go into the auto naming system, and actually call it Supreme or Spoiled.

You misunderstand, I'm in agreement that at recipe DB might not be such a great idea. My point is that player-made recipes should have a system to determine how delicious a particular combination of foodstuffs is. Otherwise, throwing together any few items into a bowl and giving it a fancy name still won't make a dish any more tasty.

And this is a problem because novelty alone doesn't make a feature people will use often. Even if you throw away "meals", "casseroles" and "stew" and add a lot more kinds of food, people will make and eat it for a while, then go back to the food with the least hassle. There needs to be a unique incentive to each combination of food that you prepare. There must be a reason why you choose one kind of food over another, for example deciding between enjoyment and nutrition. A trade-off system needs to be in place, otherwise people will just find the most efficient food and stick to that.

I do wonder however, should QL represent nutrition, or tastiness?

Edited January 3, 2013 by mrcrowz

[Elen 1,013]

tasty

could be a sliding scale generated by meal QL x # of different ingredient types used with different resulting numbers yield different event messages when eaten

[Gaeron 551]

While I agree that foodstuffs need balancing in Wurm I disagree with most of the rest of the OP's statements.

Cooking isn't one of the most important skills in the game, its middling at best and its better catered for (sorry....) than many other aspects of Wurm.

I would also not want the complexity of cooking ramped up and high nutrition made either more difficult or some sort of balancing act.

At best I'd see improving cooking as a nice to have feature but little more.

[mrcrowz 9]

While I agree that foodstuffs need balancing in Wurm I disagree with most of the rest of the OP's statements.

Cooking isn't one of the most important skills in the game, its middling at best and its better catered for (sorry....) than many other aspects of Wurm.

I would also not want the complexity of cooking ramped up and high nutrition made either more difficult or some sort of balancing act.

At best I'd see improving cooking as a nice to have feature but little more.

Cooking is hardly important right now, I agree, simply because its a flat, dumbed down version of the intricacies of actual cooking. With an overhaul of the cooking mechanics, I hope that can improve.

I don't see what's so bad about giving a skill more depth, especially when the status quo is nothing more than putting food in an oven and waiting. Its boring, tedious, and an afterthought, precisely the reasons why you would find it unimportant.