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Zcul

Suggestion: Change To Road Work

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erm....In overall I don't like this idea, because it just means we need even MORE time for things....

on the other hand, if I could choose, I wouldn't build a cobblestone road on gravel, it's ok to build it on packed dirt as I've seen it in real life too......

and btw....I always thought streets SHOULD be easy to make the community stronger (and i think it's one of the main aspects in wurm)

Edited by Miretta

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If you raise this, 15 would be wackey, heck 4 is pushing the limit. Also road decay would need to be lowered and time to destroy raised.

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While reviewing code for Paving i came across the fact it takes just 1 brick to pave an entire tile directly on dirt.

This right here is a fundamental problem with changes that are being made to Wurm. The people who are coding the game do not play it enough to even know how basic things actually work in the game. (I'm including Rolf in this.)

Wurm is an awesome sandbox with more potential than any sandbox I've found out there, but unfortunately we're getting changes that don't make sense and the changes we need are being ignored.

Before you start making roads harder, would we get reductions in the really high material count to make things like floorboards? Could we get the bug with low hedges suddenly blocking our movement fixed? Could we get accurate information on things like what skills and what level we need to build these new multistory houses you've coded? Could we get the ability to see the slope in mines so that we can put the concrete to use in leveling our mine floors?

I would really like to see the programmers focus on fixing problems with existing features and removal of existing bugs before making changes that are designed to just make things more difficult to do for those of us who actually play the game.

Edited by Gorwst
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I don't need the slope visible in mines to see if it needs concreteing, I'm can make perfectly good flooring. Sure concrete takes time but it is worth it.

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While realism is all nice and good (as long as it doesn't mess up gameplay), other things should have priority. Like reworking the GUI setup for less clicking needed, since that's one of the main complaints of wurm.

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If this is done make it a speed and decay bonus over cobble on packed dirt, so that those that do more work get a better road; which indeed it is and why roman roads that are packed dirt, graveled, sanded and cobbled still exist today. And those that make or have the existing cobble on packed dirt continue with the same performance they always had. However if new road performance is added, make brick ripup and reuse an option for those that want to retro add the gravel and sand layer.

Edited by yarnevk

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You probably want to get the new interface done for easier crafting of bulk stuff before suggesting raises in the material cost of construction particularly for bricks as they are especially annoying to make in bulk. Second handle the continue action when building stuff like walls, floors, roofs, and soon to be roads sorta like the flatten command for tiles. Have it a continuous action with a timer based on the amount of work left and suck up materials as it's being built stopping if you run out of resources to continue. This combined with the easier interface for making bulk materials and these new resource requirements become a lot less daunting.

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Updated with addition of sands, from the ideas in the thread. When attaching materials it would request 1 sand + 1 cobblestone each time, like when building walls or floors.

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You probably want to get the new interface done for easier crafting of bulk stuff before suggesting raises in the material cost of construction particularly for bricks as they are especially annoying to make in bulk. Second handle the continue action when building stuff like walls, floors, roofs, and soon to be roads sorta like the flatten command for tiles. Have it a continuous action with a timer based on the amount of work left and suck up materials as it's being built stopping if you run out of resources to continue. This combined with the easier interface for making bulk materials and these new resource requirements become a lot less daunting.

Basically this, and what Gorwst said. There's things to be done before the old systems are changed.

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It should not be a recipe it should be a multilayer construction.

I should be able to pack dirt and use it as a road, as now

I should be able to pack dirt and use it as a road, and put cobbles on top as now.

I should be able to make a sand road on top of packed dirt.

I should be able to put slabs or cobbles on top of sand on top of packed dirt.

I should be able to put gravel on packed dirt, as now

I should be able to put sand on gravel on packed dirt

I should be able to put cobbles on sand on gravel on packed dirt.

I should be able to put sand on cobbles on sand on gravel on packed dirt.

Make every addition an improvement to the road, rather than making a complex recipe making it all or nothing. Think of it as an imping process that changes the look of the road based on what materials you imp with. Unlike other 'unfinished' items a road that is not 'finished' is a very useful road.

It is a sandbox, let us make the recipes and pick the quality vs. material required we want to use and be able to upgrade our roads later.

I am making roads on Release now and first thing I am doing is logging and terraforming, then packing the road. It maybe another week before I come back and lay down some gravel after I dug rocks out of my mine a bit. Then later on once I build a raft or get a horse cart to go to the beach/desert, I can eventually sand the road. Finally I turn my attention to grinding masonry for being able to build my stone house, with the byproducts the lower quality stone bricks for building the road.

If it is a complex recipe, I cannot do what would have occured naturally in development of medieval colonies, which is build up quality of road networks over time. Making it a multi-part recipe means I have to gather all those materials before I can even put down the road, and the road extends much much slower, rather than being usefull connections in the meantime. The thing about roads is they are supposed to connect places, so if they are just perfectly cobbled roads that dead end in grass it serves nobody any good. Maybe on my deed it is perfect, but in the wilds on the way to spawn it peters out in layer quality, I run out of cobbles off deed so it is just sand on gravel on dirt, then just gravel on dirt when I run out of sand, then finally just packed dirt.

But at least there is a road there, and anyone in the wild can come add the layers that are needed to improve the community road over time into the perfectly cobbled highway. Making it a complex recipe changes the nature of the community being able to contribute to its development over time.

Layered is easy to implement because we already have requirements, for example, that cobbles can only be placed on packed dirt, the notion of precedence is already there. So just make it so that cobbles can be placed on sand, gravel or packed dirt. Make it so that sand can be placed on gravel or packed dirt, and gravel already goes on packed dirt. Sand if dropped on dirt has the bump map like cultivated dirt, whereas if sand is paved rather than dropped then it is smooth. You are thinking how to code it based on the recent house recipe improvements, when you should be thinking how to code it based on how people play the game, layered construction is much more suited to a thing that is supposed to connect players into a community.

The only trick to implementing it might be the incremental quality/decay improvements, since roads currently do not report QL/dmg even though it has impact. So if it means waiting to do it as layered T&M construction rather than 'do it all now' recipes, there is more important things to do in improving the creation UI instead.

Edited by yarnevk
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This right here is a fundamental problem with changes that are being made to Wurm. The people who are coding the game do not play it enough to even know how basic things actually work in the game. (I'm including Rolf in this.)

Wurm is an awesome sandbox with more potential than any sandbox I've found out there, but unfortunately we're getting changes that don't make sense and the changes we need are being ignored.

Before you start making roads harder, would we get reductions in the really high material count to make things like floorboards? Could we get the bug with low hedges suddenly blocking our movement fixed? Could we get accurate information on things like what skills and what level we need to build these new multistory houses you've coded? Could we get the ability to see the slope in mines so that we can put the concrete to use in leveling our mine floors?

I would really like to see the programmers focus on fixing problems with existing features and removal of existing bugs before making changes that are designed to just make things more difficult to do for those of us who actually play the game.

^^ This

I'm sorry. I don't mean to be rude or seem ungrateful for the work that's been going into the game lately, but I can't help it.

Reading the OP and rest of this thread, one thought kept going through my mind....My God. Don't they have anything better to do? Like addressing some of the other issues first and worry about this kind of stuff later? Instead it seems like it's... Let's just fix something that isn't broken and find some more ways to make things even harder and annoy as many people as possible.

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While reviewing code for Paving i came across the fact it takes just 1 brick to pave an entire tile directly on dirt.

I think it is too easy to make this high end road that give max travel bonus.

A recipe adjustment could look like this:

15 4 cobblestone stone bricks + 4 sand on Gravel tile -> Cobble stone road (new item "cobblestone")

1 stone brick on packed dirt -> REMOVE THIS OPTION

1 stone slab on Gravel tile -> Slab stone road

1 slate slab on Gravel tile -> Slate stone road (new!)

4 pottery cobblestone brick + 4 sand on Gravel tile -> Pottery brick road (new roadtype, new item "pottery cobblestone")

/Andreas

I like the idea of making paved roads a tad harder but the cobble vs slab is still off. The materials for slab are lower than cobble. It takes just 5 shards to make a slab and they're never unfinished after the recent (potentially bugged) change to creation. Cobble will take 8 items. Granted slabs are a tad harder to move.

I'd suggest just a single sand rather than 4 sand for two cobblestone variants. All your doing is filling the gaps between cobbles. If the argument is that it's an underlayment then the slabs need that more than the cobbles. Cobbles are forgiving to unevenness, a slab isn't and will immediately crack.

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Hmm now that it apparently is decided to make roadmaking more difficult, keep in mind that it also needs to be more difficult to destroy.

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This right here is a fundamental problem with changes that are being made to Wurm. The people who are coding the game do not play it enough to even know how basic things actually work in the game. (I'm including Rolf in this.)

Thanks for your support of the game. We all love it very much too and see its potential. I myself started out as a player years ago and now contributing development on both server and client. We all play and have played over the years! The reason i post these threads even though there is a memory leak that alot of people are working feverishly to fix it is because I want to keep an open discussion and get more perspectives than my own experience from the game or that of some game masters or other developers. It is hard to keep track of all the effects a change will have, and even more so on the very limited team we have.

Wurm is an awesome sandbox with more potential than any sandbox I've found out there, but unfortunately we're getting changes that don't make sense and the changes we need are being ignored.

Thanks for the great feedback! And we are not ignoring changes being requested. We just released two of the most wanted features since long time, those of multistory, visible armor and face customization!

Before you start making roads harder, would we get reductions in the really high material count to make things like floorboards?

Yes (old style) floor boards will be looked at eventually aswell. It will most likely be done when we move forward with fixing bridges, jettys.

Could we get the bug with low hedges suddenly blocking our movement fixed?

It's in the bug list, right now is christmas and new years time. In Sweden this means development efforts are low for another week since alot of bank holidays on weekdays this year.

Could we get accurate information on things like what skills and what level we need to build these new multistory houses you've coded?

Sorry about that, but I'm not keen on giving out details of recipies and requirements but rather let players find these out. Right now multistory is still in abit of a flux as we are weeding out post release bugs and adjusting recipies to make more sense. I have started a City hall feedback thread for this purpose, feel free to join the conversation.

Could we get the ability to see the slope in mines so that we can put the concrete to use in leveling our mine floors?

Yes this is also a much requested feature, along with underground buildings and will probably get looked at some time...

I would really like to see the programmers focus on fixing problems with existing features and removal of existing bugs before making changes that are designed to just make things more difficult to do for those of us who actually play the game.

We're not trying to make life difficult for the player base. It is the typical nerfing discussion where a previous feature that was not working as intended or had problems from various perspectives (Player balance, GM pains, Code smell, Support, Disk thrashing, Network clogging etc) was made more in line with some overarching vision or goals and thus was made harder or easier as an effect of that.

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as a few posters before asked: where is the benefit from higher material requirements?

did you consider how easy it is to remove paving and compare it to the amount of time needed to get the new paving 'on the road'?

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Now is time to get the paving skill of all players to 0, so we all can start in a fair base.

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Now is time to get the paving skill of all players to 0, so we all can start in a fair base.

lol... NO (we started at 1 anyway) if we did that all cobble/slab/gravel tiles should also be removed

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Now is time to get the paving skill of all players to 0, so we all can start in a fair base.

Why only paving? Why not every single skill while we're at it if it's fair and all? :rolleyes:

Nothing fair about that at all, people who've put in effort suddenly lose all that while people who are already at 1 don't lose or gain anything.

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Now is time to get the paving skill of all players to 0, so we all can start in a fair base.

Why?

Paving has just gotten 100 times easier to skill, that only benefit new players so it would make no sense to reset everyones skill.

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I like everything said in this topic, I wanted to see more kind of roads as well for a long time, there we are :)

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Ok first off stop adding new ###### and start fixing bugs do that BEFORE making new ones.

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I'm just going to add my 2i that paving with cobblestone should not be made more difficult. Cobblestone roads are just about the only thing that will keep a noob safe from those ever-faster spiders, and making it more difficult just means there are less escape lanes out there. Anyone who wants to make a more difficult road can do with slab - it's prettier too imo.

Also adding mortar to everything just makes clay and sand more essential materials that are not always easy to come by.

Basically, roads are one of those features which are just easy, and should be easy, and there's no reason to add more blood sweat and tears just because it seems easy.

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