Suggestion: Change To Road Work

[thorgot 465]

As I told you in IRC, I don't think this would be a good change. Being able to easily pave roads with something has shaped Wurm servers for the last 6 years since cobblestone was added. You can't just say

I think it is too easy to make this high end road that give max travel bonus.

and use that as the justification for making the current speed of road harder to make.You're just looking at one option there.

Instead of massively nerfing the old, I suggest that you make the new tile types hard and make them slightly better in some way, such as lower stamina drain or slightly faster for horses to travel on, or even slightly faster movement speed if you really want the fastest movement speed to be harder to craft. That way people who want to be fancy can be fancy and people who just want a road from A to B will still have the easy option they've always had.

[Aeris 3,752]

I agree that the amount of material used when paving roads is insanely unrealistic, but look at it this way: Do we need to spend this long amount of time for just paving a road?

Paving should IMHO not even be a skill, and the new additions to the game should rely on the type of floor you want instead (for example pottery skill for pottery floor). If every action we make in the game that has a timer should be a skill then we might as well make eating and drinking into skills. Title for 50 drinking could be "Town Drunkard".

-1 is what I have to give this suggestion.

[Klaa 4,872]

Oh suddenly the forums are hidden from the internet and not mentioned at all anywhere? I must have missed that.

You act like just because you CAN spam out 300 bricks that somehow the trees magically fall and the ground becomes flat, the cobble goes down instantly. Just because YOU can and YOU can do this and YOU have a fancy hat and YOU like to paint your house this color blah blah blah doesn't mean everyone else can and does.

A lot of people are forgetting that there are new people coming into this game who would like to you know, have a non dirt path in their deed they are paying money for, don't have a community of friends they play with who help them, etc.

But hey it isn't like it really matters what I say, Zcul is going to do whatever anyhow it seems. Why even bother talking about it further?

Yes, it is a rather fancy hat, painted a lovely shade of blood red. Danke, Brash

Kidding aside though... Wow relax. Starting to take my disagreement a tad bit personal there. All Ive stated imho is that cobblestone road building is far too easy, and thus easily leads to some abandoned fugly areas.

For example after first loading up Wurm in beta, I go looking around Newtown (creatively named starter deed for the time) as a newb and pretty much thought, "Ugh". Thankfully now grass and trees grow back faster, items decay faster, and untraveled roads eventually decay.

Edited December 29, 2012 by Klaa

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[Amikron 27]

Yes, it is a rather fancy hat, painted a lovely shade of blood red. Danke, Brash

Kidding aside though... Wow relax. Starting to take my disagreement a tad bit personal there. All Ive stated imho is that cobblestone road building is far too easy, and thus easily leads to some abandoned fugly areas.

For example after first loading up Wurm in beta, I go looking around Newtown (creatively named starter deed for the time) as a newb and pretty much thought, "Ugh". Thankfully now grass and trees grow back faster, items decay faster, and untraveled roads eventually decay.

Nothing personal about it, a lot of players who've played the game a long time get blinded to the fact that not everyone has the same setup they do. I've played this game on and off for YEARS and have seen it many times when discussions come up. It is much harder to put yourself in someone else's shoes than just rely on your own current status. I wish sometimes we could put in all these changes to make things take longer on some separate server where guys like you and Zcul would have to play (ON NEW CHARACTERS) for at least half a year with the changes you want so badly, so you can see the effect it has on people getting started.

I would say you guys would quickly change your minds but after reading the posts in this thread I am not sure about that.

Edited December 29, 2012 by Amikron

[Klaa 4,872]

Preaching to the choir, and fear not I actually do put myself in other people's shoes... stealing them is much easier that way

Hell it was actually WORSE when I started... kids today.

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/7091-damned-kids/

Tutorial? pffff, you figured out stuff on ur own.

[Amikron 27]

Preaching to the choir,

Start acting like it then.

[Aeris 3,752]

Kidding aside though... Wow relax. Starting to take my disagreement a tad bit personal there. All Ive stated imho is that cobblestone road building is far too easy, and thus easily leads to some abandoned fugly areas.

Making it slower to create won't reach a higher level of beauty though. Personally I'd rather pack dirt and use a horse than spend hours paving a road which I've already spent hours terraforming. This because I don't want to spend time doing something which doesn't add to my Wurm experience. Are packed dirt roads beautiful? No.

I dislike random roads leading to nowhere as much as the next guy, but what do I do if they annoy me enough? - Tear them up. There is already a fix to ugly meaningless roads, we don't need to fix this problem again.

Edited December 29, 2012 by Aeris

[yarnevk 257]

I've made lots of roads which I wouldn't have with this additional burden, and I've repaved my village several times for aesthetic reasons.

Road building to get to your neighbor should be more than I it should be We. Roads benefit the community, and the community should work on them. Making them as layered structures built and improved over time provides a way that community can contribute when they can, in ways that are simply not possible if they are done like a house recipe. The most fun I have had in Wurm is the community projects, it is very satisfying knowing you left a mark on Wurm that is unlikely to change due to the community effort it took to do it.

And getting a road to your neighbor would take just as long as it does now. Pack the dirt and pave it with crushed gravel. Yes it does not look as good and is slower and might get weeded over. So why do we have a gravel road if the best paved road has the same T&M yet looks better, is faster, and blocks weeds better? The better road should cost you T&M if you want the benefit, why is it you have to rush to the end game of cobblestone highways from day one? The game is about creating, so why the rush to get to the end of the road so fast?

Edited December 29, 2012 by yarnevk

[yarnevk 257]

I wish sometimes we could put in all these changes to make things take longer on some separate server where guys like you and Zcul would have to play (ON NEW CHARACTERS) for at least half a year with the changes you want so badly, so you can see the effect it has on people getting started.

How about you save them the time, and explain why you think noobville has to have cobbleroads to begin with, when the gravel road takes the same T&M as the cobbleroad does now (actually less because rock crush is assumed vs. rock chip step) and is a perfectly functional road for noobs pulling carts. He is proposing to make the best road take more T&M, since it has more benefit, and the reality is that logging and terraforming would still take much more work than surfacing the road, so if you have a complaint to make on behalf of noobs it is why does logging and terraforming take so long, not why does better roads going to take longer.

Your argument makes as much sense as saying slate and marble need to be more common and take less skill, because the poor noobs would go homeless. The fact is they do not go homeless, instead they get to work and cut some trees, rummage some iron build a campfire to make a few nails, while they carve a mallet, then build their shack and call it a day. The marble mansion is what they dream about as they fall asleep on their dirt floor. The next day when they build the gravel road to their neighbors and fall asleep on their gravel floor, they can dream about the day when they can afford the T&M to put in a paved road and floor.

Edited December 29, 2012 by yarnevk

[yarnevk 257]

reduce the maximum speed of cobblestone to maybe 15km/h (i think it's 20 atm?) and therefore make slabs the highest instead (I never really got why we have cobblestone AND slabs as highest possible) and then add a few more other road types to it like marble roads or something similar

Follow the suggestion of underlayments being rock, paper, scissors benefits to decay, flora, and speed so there is more than one variable, the same can be applied to surfaces. Clearly brick roads are more likely to decay, get weeds and be slower than a slab road. And a marble road would be smoother than a slate slab than a rock slab, for incrementally faster (like horsehoes). While concrete sealed with tar would be the best road of all. So you have your surface rock, paper, scissors combined with the underlayments rock, paper, scissors and you create a lot of formula. Grandfather in existing fast speed to be cobble, then have rock slab be faster for immediate benefit to those that spent the effort to make the harder road, then have the more rare slabs or concrete/tar being fastest.

To allow easier upgrade fix the underlayment layers to be the same ordering, packed dirt on packed gravel on packed sand allows the upper layers to be removed (and decayed) without tracking history, and requires no new features to implement as we already have precedence layer code for cobbles on packed dirt. What you lose on underlayment flexibility (cobbles on packed dirt goes away) you gain on being able to upgrade/decay layers by removing them without having to track their build history. Now you can rip up your cobbles and put in your marble on the existing underlayment layer, and Wurm can also rip back the cobbles to the underlayments until Wurm reclaims with grass.

So over time the T&M road ladder is....

Grass

Packed Dirt

Packed Gravel on Packed Dirt

Packed Sand on Packed Gravel on Packed Dirt

Stone Brick on Packed Sand on Packed Gravel on Packed Dirt

Clay Brick on Packed Sand on Packed Gravel on Packed Dirt (higher on the ladder since Clay is harder to get than Stone)

Rock Slab on Packed Sand on Packed Gravel on Packed Dirt

Options for the affluent

Slate Slab on Packed Sand on Packed Gravel on Packed Dirt

Marble Slab on Packed Sand on Packed Gravel on Packed Dirt

Options for function

Tar Seal on Concrete Seal on Pavers (slab or bricks) on Packed Sand on Packed Gravel on Packed Dirt

And of course for docks

Floorboards, on Marsh, Packed Dirt or Packed Sand.

Disband leads to decay leads to unused leads to destroy, you lose the layers in reverse order

Seal goes back to pavers (bricks/slabs), which decay back to Packed Sand which blows in the wind back to Packed Gravel which gets eroded back to Packed Dirt which becomes Grass which becomes Forest, Flowers or Shrubs.

Now because cobbleroads are higher up the road ladder, they are less likely to be going everwhere, and if they do and they don't get used, Wurm rips them back to more realisitic primitive roads, giving a Wurmian a fair chance to further rip up or resurface before Wurm reclaims.

Edited December 29, 2012 by yarnevk

[Protunia 735]

...And the server goes nuts keeping track of it all....

[yarnevk 257]

Protunia state your objections with facts....based on your same prior objection I rewrote it so no server history tracking is required.

The history requirement is removed entirely by using the construction ladder. The servers can already handle pointing to a different texture for new road types (marble, slate, pottery) in the same manner it can handle it for new floor, and if your client cant handle so many textures, then dial back your client settings. The only issue with 1.0 not being able to handle things is due to memory leaks, it is not because we have new textures on roofs and floors. And even if it was a problem for the majority to have new road textures, then do not add the new road surfaces. The underlayment precedence code is already on the server, you are required to pack dirt to put in pavers now, and you rip them up back to packed dirt, the last post just makes that ladder longer but the server does not need to track anything.

It is as simple as this code

If paving (removing) slab/bricks require (restore) packed sand

If paving (removing) packed sand require (restore) packed gravel

If paving (removing) packed gravel require (restore) packed dirt

If paving (removing) packed dirt require (restore) dirt or grass

replacing this code

If paving (removing) slab/bricks require (restore) packed dirt

If paving (removing) packed dirt require (restore) dirt or grass

Hardly a burden to the programmer or the server.

The only burden here is to the experienced player that wants the best road with the least work. This does not affect noobs at all since all they want is a wood shack and fence, after that they will happily put in the next step up from grass roads if it helps them run from the spider or drag their cart

Edited December 29, 2012 by yarnevk

[TheMadDoctor 66]

Yep, I like you yarnevk, I see I'm not the only one agreeing with that road idea.

[Tich 1,389]

yarnevk, where has this packed sand come from?? its not in the OP

From what zcul said the idea is...

Packed Dirt + Shards => Gravel tile (like now)

Gravel Tile + 4 cobblestone** and 4 sand => Cobble stone road

Gravel Tile + 1 stone slab and 4 mortar => Slab stone road

Gravel Tile + 1 slate slab and 4 mortar => Slate stone road*

Gravel Tile + 1 marble slab and 4 mortar => Marble stone road*

Gravel Tile + 4 pottery cobblestone** and 4 sand => Pottery cobble road*

New items

Cobblestone

Pottery Cobblestone

New Tile Types

Slate stone road

Marble stone road

Pottery cobble road

Destroying may do this...

Cobble stone road OR Slab stone road OR Slate stone road OR Marble stone road OR Pottery cobble road would all revert to gravel road

and Destroying Gravel road => Dirt Tile.

[yarnevk 257]

sand is in there....read it again. It is also only in there because I posted that it should be, and linked to a site showing cobbles are indeed made on packed sand on packed dirt. I am posting my idea not reposting zculs adoption of the idea, and gradually he is realizing I have a better idea if you read past the 'I CANT HAZ and POOR NOOBS' posts.

Sand has benefit in that it stops flora but not as good as gravel at decay. Gravel has benefit in that it slows decay but not stops flora. I originally posted you could have flexibility in one or the other or both, but then you cannot rip up without server tracking history and incrementing road attributes, so I made them required since that is how a good cobble road is made anyways. With my latest rewrite it is entirely compatible with existing infrastructure that the texture defines the road quality, dmg, decay, flora. Layering exists already in more limited form of cobbles layered on paved dirt, it is built/ripped/decayed that way.

My whole point of my idea vs. zculs is he is thinking of recipes, I am thinking of layers. A packed sand on packed gravel on packed dirt is a good starter road to start off that can be made in three passes, and with that you can use it while you go make bricks, which if you are a noob is a tradeoff of using that same stone for rebuilding your wood fences/shack instead, or even just doing the paved road for the paving/masonry skills (for the benefit of the community of course!). I am specifically saying do not make it a recipe where you have bricks and sand and mortar and dirt in your inventory and just stand there until the tile is finished.

I call it Packed Sand simply because the existing sand texture is bump mapped just like dirt is, while Packed Dirt is not bump mapped. (if you have that gfx option on) So you need to pack it before you put your pavers down as they would be a mess if it was a sand dune, it is realistically how paver roads are made, and it follows the exisiting model of packing the dirt. More layers does make for more T&M, but that is the whole point of doing it in layers, as you can improve your road over time yet can have a functional road in the meantime, part of the never ending battle of keeping Wurm from reclaiming your work until you leave. Like it or not, that is the fundamental design of the game, and layering is a perfect fit to that design philosophy.

Even concrete or slab floors you pack it beforehand, you want a flat surface for those, so concrete, mortar is the same thickness, and slabs are not rocking on uneven ground. I left out the mortar from my posts, because that is not something you would layer, that is part of putting down the slabs, you cannot have a mortar road as an intermediate step!

Edited December 29, 2012 by yarnevk

[MetalDragon 1,630]

I don't like it, i'd be for this if this was an addition to the current system but doing the additional work gives you extra benefits (bigger speed buff).

So normal roads are how they are, then you can make 'perfect' cobblestone/slab whatever using the method you said, which give +1-2km/h speed bonus travelling across or some other bonus. The suggestion is too much of a chore to make a road, especially when highways can stretch hundreds of tiles and are up to 3 or 5 tiles wide this will be a step backwards to what we have now, just for added realism.

note: i havent read the whole thread so sorry for anything i mightve missed.

[fatboy 448]

really dont see the need to make things harder. As rolf went n tried to make things easier to keep people around. By making things tougher, New players get bored faster, People come here to play a game, not clock into another job. For those who love the idea of harder stuff, great. But youll find most wont enjoy the idea. People wont want to to make roads for a week for there home them spam out 5000 bricks, mortar or more for there house then few weeks later finally work on skills. At which point cuz they spent so much time into making roads, they are already burned out. so you probally wont see the house finish. I can see why some like things tougher, But this isnt RL, this isnt a 2nd job and if you hope to gain more players instead of finding ways to runem off, Best change this idea and get in a noobs shoes. And i will not keep roads alive beyong my deed, so your alls community idea is out the window as people wont spend there free time keeping up a road that spans the map they worked hard on just to keep it there. Also i havent seen useless roads laying around, so there is no need to change the system when it is not broken.

[yarnevk 257]

State why you need to have a brick road for the same T&M as gravel roads, and why you do not consider gravel roads to be a road. This is not a case of more work to have something you need, this is a case of more work to have something that is better than you need.

Why has nobody complained about stone houses requiring premium skill and excessive materials, so the noobs dont go homeless before? Because that would be a silly argument is why, and that same argument is silly when applied to roads.

zculs OP was that cobblestone is a premium road, but does not take premium skill T&M.

Edited December 29, 2012 by yarnevk

[Amikron 27]

Your argument makes as much sense as saying slate and marble need to be more common and take less skill, because the poor noobs would go homeless. The fact is they do not go homeless, instead they get to work and cut some trees, rummage some iron build a campfire to make a few nails, while they carve a mallet, then build their shack and call it a day. The marble mansion is what they dream about as they fall asleep on their dirt floor. The next day when they build the gravel road to their neighbors and fall asleep on their gravel floor, they can dream about the day when they can afford the T&M to put in a paved road and floor.

Actually no it doesn't, because all I'm saying is not to mess up one of the few working things in the game. It is that simple.

If one wants to ADD NEW ROAD TYPES that is one thing, but the system WORKS like it is, rolf even improved it so that roads that aren't used actually go away. Again I have no problem with expanding systems but making something that works take longer because "hurr durr I feels like it" doesn't work for me.

[yarnevk 257]

You did not answer the question of why insist roads must be cobblestone, and why cannot accept that it is promoted to a premium road leaving a gravel road as the basic easy road. It actually takes you less time to put in a gravel road because you do not have to crush the stone with a maul, like you have to chip bricks with a chisel. The whole point of all this is that is still too easy, because you rarely see gravel roads, that means there is not enough gap between easy and premium roads.

Everyone complaining is acting like they will not be able to afford to put a road in at all, when zculs entire point is gravel roads should be basic road, cobblestone the premium road exactly in the same manner as you have wood house and stone houses. It makes no sense to add other premium road types if cobblestone is still the basic road.

Edited December 29, 2012 by yarnevk

[Aeris 3,752]

So what now, non-premium accounts shouldn't be able to create decent walkways? Non-premium playing is supposed to be a demo, not a punishment. I don't see how crippling their roadmaking would work as an incentive to go premium. Not even I who have had premium for years feel enticed by the remade roads suggestion.

[yarnevk 257]

Justify your remarks in the same context as houses. Why is what is OK for houses not OK for roads. Stone houses require premium skill to make, f2p cannot make them. Why should f2p be able to make paved roads when they can only make wood shacks? How is a gravel road crippling? Last I checked having been one myself on the new server, a noob can outrun a spider on marsh as long as they drop their cart and any heavy stuff and have decent food/drink stamina A gravel road is not crippling the f2p player.

And anyways he did not say he would require a premium subscription for the road building skills, he just said it should take more T&M for the benefit they provide. And besides that has nothing to do with how this is implemented, that is purely a matter of tuning the skill levels required (an earlier post was a good suggestion for skill ladders)

Edited December 29, 2012 by yarnevk

[Aeris 3,752]

Your remarks make no sense. We're not talking about houses, we're talking about roads. Stay on-topic.

Why should roadmaking at all take up so much time? I get the feeling that you've never actually made a road down a mountain, spent days trying to get all slopes right. THAT is the fun part. The paving isn't what most people look forward to when creating a road.

Why do you feel that non-prems need to be punished like this?

One of the greatest incentives for going premium is that they can walk around on the servers and see what other people have created. I just don't see that happening if roads are to become a commodity, a hassle, a great big pain in the butt.