Suggestion: Change To Road Work

[TheMadDoctor 66]

Packed dirt is already helping a lot in the movement, a noob escaping from a spider attack would still be possible over such a road, plus I see so many noobs dying on normal cobblestones anyway.

As stated by Zcul higher in this page, they are a small team of devs, and they are looking to fix bugs, but there is always place for new ideas, which could lead to a way to fix some other situation that they couldn't fix a solution before, so I say, keep going on with that road project!

[KunAlt 844]

To be really honest, i´m in the point now of not caring about this, decided to make all my floors wooden, mainly because i´m not an advanced player, and i have more important skills to get up, if i go to grind i will go with key ones like mining, woodcutting, blacksmith, platesmith, metalurgy, fine carpentry, etc.

Maybe i´m wrong on this, but the only thing that this changes promote is make the game boring or a target to bot, on top of that, anyone can look into the current roads, even if slabs give a bonus in speed, you will not find a lot of slabs roads outside deeds, the rason its simple, slabs roads before the change, need at least 8 actions per tile, mine shards x5, make slab, pack, and pave, while coble was 4, mine shard x1, make brick, pack, pave. Now new coble roads will take mine shards x5, make bricks (or coblestone idk)x4, dig sand x4, pack, pave gravel, add brickx4 add sand x4 a total of 23 actions per tile. and of course the logistic, before a cart with 7 rafts can carry enough materials to pave a nice segment of roads, even if you do it 2 tiles wide, i don´t want to make the maths now, but i think you will do very short roads with a full loaded cart.

Didn´t do the maths for the other but i think all are allmost the same, 20 or more actions per tile.

Just my 2 cents.

[Protunia 735]

so can people still wreck em just as easy???

I mean adding requirements to build them should mean they would be harder to destroy.....

I am not getting this really....you have easy mode faith now and with sermons.

And now you want to punish road builders by making it harder to build a road.

I mean if we are really going to do this there are many thing 'too easy' to do in wurm right now.

I am totally against these changes to make roads harder to build period.

Keep it like it is and just add the new road types.

It makes no sense to complicate making a road if they can just walk up and wreck it with a shovel and one action.

Edited December 28, 2012 by Protunia

[TheMadDoctor 66]

Let me do the math then,

7 rafts per large cart

94 bricks per raft

40 shards per raft

40 sands per raft

(plus extra space in the cart with the 7 rafts)

4 brick + 4 sand + 1 shard (gravel) per tile

2 raft of brick = 47 tiles

4 raft of sand = 40 tiles

1 raft of shard = 40 tiles

So, with a full cart you can make 40 tiles of road, which is still a lot.

[TheMadDoctor 66]

@Prutonia

Well, Paving have been underused for quite a while. Recently that skill that was related to making road spread to housing, making it a "to need" skill for masons while carpenters still use carpentry for floors. Where is the logic in that? I prefer 400% more the idea of working harder to make roads because there is a skill for them already rather than being punished because I'm a mason and not a carpenter to make floor in a house.

Not only it slows down the process of making a house, but now I need to skill something that was unrelated before, making it even more painful to play. I've stopped the construction of my tower because of that and if I have to live in a unfinished tower, so be it.

I would also appreciate even more paving if its a real system and not just a new texture on a tile. If there is some bonuses related to every kind of pavement it would make more sense to it than just the look of it.

Edited December 28, 2012 by TheMadDoctor

[Protunia 735]

@Prutonia

Well, Paving have been underused for quite a while. Recently that skill that was related to making road spread to housing, making it a "to need" skill for masons while carpenters still use carpentry for floors. Where is the logic in that? I prefer 400% more the idea of working harder to make roads because there is a skill for them already rather than being punished because I'm a mason and not a carpenter to make floor in a house.

Not only it slows down the process of making a house, but now I need to skill something that was unrelated before, making it even more painful to play. I've stopped the construction of my tower because of that and if I have to live in a unfinished tower, so be it.

I would also appreciate even more paving if its a real system and not just a new texture on a tile. If there is some bonuses related to every kind of pavement it would make more sense to it than just the look of it.

That is all well and good, but when someone can come by and in 20 secs or less wack out your paved tile time and time again well see how you feel.

[Zcul 303]

Updated the start post with notes about destroying and progressively improvement of roads over time.

[Sklo:D 2,210]

Agreed if the new item cobblestone is easy to spam... (keybind!!)

Really nice idea with the sand but also gravel should have been possible

[Griffith 362]

fine. keep making the game more difficult. but forget about attracting a bigger playerbase.

so a new player wants to make a cobblestone road and asks hot to. they get this response:

15 4 cobblestone stone bricks + 4 sand on Gravel tile -> Cobble stone road (new item "cobblestone")

they ask how do i make 4 cobblestone? how do i make a gravel tile?

they get a response

they say: hmm never mind, ill go PLAY something else.

Do you guys just make changes out of your sleeves? just because you came across it and thought hey this

is too easy lets make it more difficult? Do you have any goals for attracting new players? and how are you

pursuing those goals? (obviously im not expecting an answer. im nobody) but seems that devs just like

to come up with nerfs that werent needed too often. like the lamps, fishing, etc and now this.

yes some ppl like the changes, but they already know the game mechanics and so on. but throw this

out to newcomers, and just like the many new people that login for the first time and i have to heal,

( i live near the starting town in my server ) and then quit, the game just keeps getting harder and harder FOR NEW PEOPLE.

So how does this change or any of the other nerfs that you throw out, just because you saw it and thought hey this is too easy,

how is it going to attract new people in to the game.

[Miretta 1,415]

soooo....gravel is still one stone shard I guess?

and it's all nice, that people should have higher difficulties of destroying pavements....but how to balance that? I mean, what if I made a mistake in what area I paved and then have to use the same time as building the road to destroy it? it's ok for other people, so they can't destroy a work so easily....but it would be awful for bigger street projects. Don't know a real solution to it tbh.

[MrGARY 12,421]

This just gets worse and worse. Increased costs to make a simple road, that's also increased costs for just simply paving a deed for anyone, new guy or veteran. Then to balance this we make destroying it harder?

Again, this is just a terrible idea and a really bad direction to look in. We should be fixing what we have, and maybe add more varieties, not saying a big screw you to everyone and slap on more work for more to-do lists we didn't need. It's a vicious cycle, just like the lamp nerf. That required harvesting more olives, then we got higher olive yields but that didn't deny the fact we still had extra work we didn't need. Then we got oil barrels, more bandaids to cover the fact it's still work we shouldn't need to do. After the wounds sat covered in salt long enough the nerf was reverted for on deed lamps, and was left for off deed lamps. Rinse and repeat changing the subject to the topic of the day.

Is it really hard to explain this, we play Wurm for fun, because we want to have fun. Please reread that sentence a few times and take it into consideration. If anyone wants to play a working simulator and enjoy that, there's this thing in real life called a job, and you actually get paid for your work rather than paying them so you can work. I do have to give Zcul respect for actually talking to the player base before throwing in updates like these, but please read the people speaking out against it otherwise you're defeating the point of talking to us.

[yarnevk 257]

Woot that dev liked my layered suggestion; which I think goes a long way to mitigating the more work recipe, because it allows the more complex road to be built over time and still have a useful road. No worries about sourcing all the components into one cart and are you going to be able to finish the road before it ends in grass.

So lets flesh it out a bit.

What are the benefits of each material as a surface and an underlayment? There are three benefits to road materials, mitigation of flora reversion, travel speed, and mitigation of decay.

Less Decay: Packed Gravel > Packed Sand > Packed Dirt (pavers require a Packed surface, decay means loss of pavers if unused)

Less Flora: Packed Sand > Sand > Packed Gravel > Gravel > Packed Dirt > Dirt

More Speed: Packed Sand > Packed Dirt > Packed Gravel > Dirt > Sand > Gravel

Tar (or derivative) has been suggested as a surface as well, as already in use for floorboards and ships. It would have be the best in all three criteria if used to seal a road, though some think this is not medieval and should not be done.

The various pavers old and new should also have different tradeoffs beyond cosmetics, but I will not cover this since there are new things based on flooring materials in the works, and material requirements for floors are in iteration. For now the ultimate road is a paver on Packed Sand on Packed Gravel on Packed Dirt.

All the above are placed using paver skills. Packed Sand and Packed Dirt are paved not dropped. Packed Dirt on sand requires dropping or having dirt, Packed Sand on Dirt requires dropping or having sand. Sand or Dirt itself can be Packed without requirement of dropping or having.

Layered roads have complexity in layers providing incremental benefits, and mitigate construction complexity by allowing this incremental benefit to be obtained over time with incremental construction. Each layer can be removed back to the prior layer and replace with new layers, repurposing the materials (with a qty/dmg/ql nerf as smelting does for tools). Mayor bonus applies and premium+ skills required to rip it up in first place (and I suggest paving skill be ripup speed), and of course FCC rules of hwy protection apply as does deed road protection.

I personally see it as fun that you can watch a new server develop the quality of the community roads. Same fun as seeing it grow up from wood shacks/fences to stone mansions/walls. This is why I alted on Release because that is fun that is difficult to have on Indy. Maybe in five years every road will be sealed with tar, but that process started from that first day when you packed dirt and/or sand to get to your neighbors house faster.

Of course since this is not yet implemented I am going to do cobbles on Packed Dirt as fast as I can, with the hope that when Packed Sand and Packed Gravel layers are added I can rip up the cobbles, reuse, and repave for a better road.

Edited December 28, 2012 by yarnevk

[Protunia 735]

Woot that dev liked my layered suggestion; which I think goes a long way to mitigating the more work recipe, because it allows the more complex road to be built over time and still have a useful road. No worries about getting all the components on one cart and are you going to be able to finish the road before it ends in grass.

So lets flesh it out a bit.

What are the benefits of each material as a surface and an underlayment? There are three benefits to a road, mitigation of flora reversion, travel speed, and mitigation of decay.

Less Decay: Packed Gravel > Packed Sand > Packed Dirt (pavers require a Packed surface)

Less Flora: Packed Sand > Sand > Packed Gravel > Packed Dirt > Dirt

More Speed: Packed Sand > Packed Dirt > Packed Gravel > Dirt > Sand

The various pavers old and new also have different tradeoffs which I will not cover since there are new things based on flooring materials in the works.

The ultimate road is a paver on Packed Sand on Packed Gravel on Packed Dirt.

All the above are placed using paver skills. Packed Sand and Packed Dirt are paved not dropped. Packed Dirt on sand requires dropping or having dirt, Packed Sand on Dirt requires dropping or having sand. Sand or Dirt itself can be Packed without requirement of dropping or having.

Layered roads have complexity in layers providing incremental benefits, and mitigate construction complexity by allowing this incremental benefit to be obtained over time with incremental construction. Each layer can be removed back to the prior layer and replace with new layers, repurposing the materials (with a qty/dmg/ql nerf as smelting does for tools). Mayor bonus applies and premium+ skills required to rip up it in first place.

And we are gonna waste server resources checking roads???? I hate this whole idea really I do.

Leave it like it is and add some new pavement types.

Just like the wall change wheres the new walls???? when are they coming??

[belthize 438]

Woot that dev liked my layered suggestion; which I think goes a long way to mitigating the more work recipe, because it allows the more complex road to be built over time and still have a useful road. No worries about getting all the components on one cart and are you going to be able to finish the road before it ends in grass.

You'd have to have a different tile type for every one of those options, there aren't layers in wurm other than rock,dirt,water so the game can't keep track of 'dirt under sand' etc.

If we're going to have truly complex recipes and a staged approach to items I'd rather it be something more interesting than roads.

[EliasTheCrimson 348]

I would definitely like this idea. It's currently far too easy to create massive areas of pavement that will never regenerate since pavement "decay" is next to non-existent. Laying a cobble highway is essentially a one-man afternoon-job, and we currently never see any variation since the cobble roads already offer maximum mobility.

Edited December 28, 2012 by EliasTheCrimson

[yarnevk 257]

pavement decay is non existent on used roads, it most certainly does decay on unused roads, seen entire cobbleroads be reclaimed back to grass. Just monitoring the road to see if it decayed yet means you are walking on it, which itself nerfs the decay. You have to stay off the road if you want to see it decay.

But indeed progressive variation is what would happen, instead of cobble because it is easiest off deed, or rock slab on deed for the looks. It is silly that little used mountain roads are cobble, they should be dirt or gravel because they are not worth the time and materials for a better road.

Edited December 28, 2012 by yarnevk

[yarnevk 257]

You'd have to have a different tile type for every one of those options, there aren't layers in wurm other than rock,dirt,water so the game can't keep track of 'dirt under sand' etc.

If we're going to have truly complex recipes and a staged approach to items I'd rather it be something more interesting than roads.

It only requires that roads have the same QL/decay attributes as any other created thing. You do not add actual terrain layers to the database unless you truly want to ripup (or decay) layer by layer, a nice but not necessary feature if it adds database complexity. If instead you just say rip it back to dirt and get no salvage mats, then you can simply just inc/dec the QL/decay and change the terrain tile and what you are essentially doing is imping the road by changing its material type, in the exact same manner as now, except you do not have to unpave a gravel road to put in a slab road you just put the slab road on top of the gravel road, but you are better off converting that gravel road to a sand road first.

You start with grass and convert to Packed dirt then to Packed Gravel then to Packed Sand has incrementally better QL than if you did Packed Sand conversion of grass. It works the same way as saying cobbles most be placed on Paved Dirt now, simply by saying what can be placed on what using existing dependency feature. You just take the existing QL/decay info and bump it, you do not need to maintain a history.

Edited December 28, 2012 by yarnevk

[yarnevk 257]

And we are gonna waste server resources checking roads????

Seriously? server resources are already used to keep track of if roads are used and if not force them to decay based on their type. Be it cobble, gravel or slab, Wurm eventually reclaims itself, evidenced only by the terraform slopes remaining in a grassy forest.

Edited December 28, 2012 by yarnevk

[Zcul 303]

soooo....gravel is still one stone shard I guess?

and it's all nice, that people should have higher difficulties of destroying pavements....but how to balance that? I mean, what if I made a mistake in what area I paved and then have to use the same time as building the road to destroy it? it's ok for other people, so they can't destroy a work so easily....but it would be awful for bigger street projects. Don't know a real solution to it tbh.

A possibility is we track whoever made it can remove it for 48 hrs or so could solve that, maybe that could also be applied to any paving, a "hardening" period where the tile is still able to destroy more easily. Could that work as antidote for griefing aswell?

[metis 51]

Bad idea already too long to do many things

[TheMadDoctor 66]

People have to remember that its not Minecraft but Wurmonline.. want it the easy way?... wrong game.

Skills have to be earned, so far that paving skill needed the equivalent of more than half the server surface to pave to get to 100.. its not a McDonald parking lot. By enhancing the road system that skill can be made more useful.

How many roads any of you will done during they life in Wurm? Does it REALLY bother you to the point of not playing because making your small road to the nearest neighbor such a burden?

--

So far I like how the idea is developing within the community, people tend to find a way to make it fair for everybody and Zcul is more than generous to listen and build up the whole idea with us.

Edited December 28, 2012 by TheMadDoctor

[Domhnall 69]

Okay, I have to ask. Since the idea seems to be "make more work per tile" then why is gravel simply a click on a shard then pave? Shards are a big rock, shouldn't we have to crush them with large mauls to make them gravel, then pave?

[Miretta 1,415]

A possibility is we track whoever made it can remove it for 48 hrs or so could solve that, maybe that could also be applied to any paving, a "hardening" period where the tile is still able to destroy more easily. Could that work as antidote for griefing aswell?

it could work, but I have another suggestion: if you want to make changes to roads and their usability to make the "best" roads a little harder to make, why not reduce the maximum speed of cobblestone to maybe 15km/h (i think it's 20 atm?) and therefore make slabs the highest instead (I never really got why we have cobblestone AND slabs as highest possible) and then add a few more other road types to it like marble roads or something similar

I wouldnt like the reduce at all, but I would prefer it over the "we need now stonebricks AND mortar to make a street" cause in real life (I life in germany) most cobblestone roads are just pressed/hammered into the ground for stability and they were never the fastest way to travel (compared to todays streets)

also another thing: cobblestone roads never used fullsized stone bricks, but smaller ones, so maybe like the suggestion above ^^ make cobblestone bricks half sized of normal stone bricks, they need a less time to make but need a higher quantity to fill a road tile (and it would make sense!)

and i like the "crush the stone shard" idea

Edited December 28, 2012 by Miretta

[Zcul 303]

It could work, but I have another suggestion: if you want to make changes to roads and their usability to make the "best" roads a little harder to make, why not reduce the maximum speed of cobblestone to maybe 15km/h (i think it's 20 atm?) and therefore make slabs the highest instead (I never really got why we have cobblestone AND slabs as highest possible) and then add a few more other road types to it like marble roads or something similar

I wouldnt like the reduce at all, but I would prefer it over the "we need now stonebricks AND mortar to make a street" cause in real life (I life in germany) most cobblestone roads are just pressed/hammered into the ground for stability and they were never the fastest way to travel (compared to todays streets)

also another thing: cobblestone roads never used fullsized stone bricks, but smaller ones, so maybe like the suggestion above ^^ make cobblestone bricks half sized of normal stone bricks, they need a less time to make but need a higher quantity to fill a road tile (and it would make sense!)

and i like the "crush the stone shard" idea

I was thinking along these lines aswell. Having some "ladder of speed" where each more complex material would yield faster roads. I do have to say I changed my mind after the suggestion to separate the speed from the looks. Basically having some way of constructing advanced roads that have different drawbacks depending on how they were built. It requires some more coding but it would be nice. Also it would allow people who want really fast roads to build those, and those who just want a fancy looking marble road to place those without alot of extra work.

[fatboy 448]

Marble would be the fastest road, obvious choice! now if only we could get a beef up on the spawns as barely anyone can findem :-( *hint hint rolf*