Topia Online (Kickstarter Sandbox Mmo)

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

WEBSITE: http://www.topiaonline.com/ - KICKSTARTER: http://www.kickstart...1/topia-online

I love sandbox games. I'm not a fan of PvP oriented sandboxes, but this one is intriguing in part because it comes with a toolkit that lets you create your own unique version of the gameworld -- which means you can make up your own version of the game without PvP if you wish. I am not 100% sure how that works but it sounds to me somewhat similar to the Neverwinter Nights Persistent World servers, or maybe even a minecraft private server. (actually after reading more, it sounds a little similar to my suggested "pocketworlds" aka "Wurmholes" for Wurm)

Anyway, certainly it has a lot of elements to attract some of the hardcore sandbox crowds (permadeath, no safe zones, etc) but seems to also have a unique way for anyone to make their own version of their own "perfect" sandbox if they like, with playermade "modding" (ie scripts) to customize almost any aspect.

OFFICIAL KICKSTARTER VIDEO:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMAt6OtuCSA

(lots more videos here)

From some of the dev forum posts:

Every account in Topia Online will have access to it's own special 'sandbox instance' where you can test your creations or play in 'privacy'. Here is how the system works:

- Your sandbox is completely separate from the main Topia world. Your characters inside the Topia world cannot 'travel' to your sandbox, but you can clone a copy of your Topia character to be transferred into your sandbox world.

- Your sandbox is fully persistent, and you have full control over it. You can spawn in creatures freely, test combat scenarios, build your own home, test out scripts, etc.

- You can link your sandbox to other players/friends and have them join in. They will have their own characters that they use in your sandbox.

- The sandbox is the same size as a normal game zone (125x125 tiles).

- You will be able to record videos, adjust the rules of the sandbox, and have 'god powers'.

You may upgrade the sandbox based on various tiers that will be discussed in the future. These tiers will give you additional control over your sandbox world:

- Normal tier: 125x125 tiles, able to spawn anything that you have unlocked in the main game, up to 500 'entities' spawned.

- Builder tier: 4 zones large (1000x1000) tiles, able to spawn anything, able to upload custom art, re-code any game rule.

- Developer tier: 20 zones, able to control all aspects of the game, licensed to sell/run as your own game however you want.

- Commercial tier: Unlimited world size, advanced support from our development team, built to support thousands of players.

Q. Couldn't I just script myself to have some sort of 'god mode'?

A. Scripts can only execute within the context of the situation. For example, if you are creating a spell, it will only be able to do as much damage as the caster's magical power. The point of the scripting system is to give the players more control over the effects. However, they are still limited by the resources and power of the character using the scripts.

<<< ** This part reminds me a little of Ryzom's custom spellmaking -- spells would have a "cost" that was "paid" by various unlocked abilities, which you had to balamce out, such things as: longrange vs short or touch, direct damage vs damge over time (including how much damage over how much time), area of effect, mana cost (some other word than 'mana' but same concept). So you could design yourself a longrange fireball spell that did light rapid fireballs very cheap, or one big explosive blast hitting several targets but that took most of your 'mana' and left you drained for a time after. As your magic skills improved you'd have more options/more power available. >>>

Q. Do I have to know how to program to play the game?

A. Although many players are excited to use the scripting tools that come with Topia Online, no programming is neccessary to enjoy the game to it's fullest. Not only is there a vast script marketplace that you can use, but players will constantly be adding custom interfaces and tools to the game. We wanted a scripting engine so that the community could help grow the game's features.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Brash_Endeavors

[Claies 77]

Lost me in his video at the combination of always online PVP permadeath. Further lost me at the concept of players creating "scripts" to make new actions available, and selling scripts in a marketplace....

[Notsodirt 139]

the customization and nearly endless modding and molding is near. but no.

[Ecrir 887]

This game sounds too risky to me and there's some elements I don't like. Always online + no safe zones + PvP permadeath? And there was this in the comments section, posted by the creator of the kickstarter:

"Your character's houses belong to your account estate. When you recreate, you can return to your house and it will still belong to you assuming that nobody has kicked the door down or claimed it as their own."

So you can get killed, then they can kick down your door and steal your house? So you can work for ages on making something nice in the world and they can just move in and steal it. Imagine not just being able to drain deeds in Wurm but actually being able to steal them. No thanks

I wish them good luck and maybe I'll try it if it comes out, but I'll pass on kickstarting it.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Ecrir

[atazs 965]

This whole private areas is not really my thing... Also its 2d or i dont even know... no thank you

Edited December 11, 2012 by atazs

[Kryx 20]

You can't really do your "non-pvp" thing Brash. As all mobs are controlled by players, you will essentially have to live in a world where it's only you. You'll also have to pay for a builder tier server. I don't see how they spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on the game as they said in the video. It looks like it was made by amateurs in their free time. (I know how much work goes into a game, but really...this looks like something from 15 years ago.)

[ZarmaZarma 192]

I like PvP, and I like the prospect of having my door kicked down and having random strangers roll over my bed sheets or w/e, but perma death I am sincerely unattracted to. It doesn't work in Haven and Hearth (in my opinion), and it won't work here, either. The main problem is that you'll get some guy who's better than everyone else, and he'll walk over and one shot noobs a few hours after they've started playing. Then they'll just give up.

[Laiwyn 188]

So.. basically the developers are like give us money and we'll let you develop the game for us? Lol, not sure what the devs' jobs are supposed to be.

[Saraski 47]

So.. basically the developers are like give us money and we'll let you develop the game for us? Lol, not sure what the devs' jobs are supposed to be.

Minecraft?

Had the same Idea pretty much, give a simple platform, allow the community to improve it for you with mods, hell Notch kept breaking the good mods with patches before he hired Bucket

[Laiwyn 188]

Yeah.. but Minecraft is different. Good point, though, because I can't come up with a good counter-argument at the moment, hehe.

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

Yea, the toolkit was the main attraction for me, as the main game just seems too griefer-oriented. But it does sound like the pricetag is outrageously high for anyone who wants to really set up a largescale alternate gameworld with a more pve themed ruleset. At first it reminded me a little of the NWN modding tools, but those did not charge worldbuilders such high fees just to set up their own alternate worlds.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Brash_Endeavors

[Kryx 20]

If it was a 1 time fee of say $20, then you can set up your own servers etc, minecraft style, I think it might be worth playing. With their current model however it just isn't going to work. Especially considering a game like this requires a large playerbase in order to function. (if all mobs are player controlled...what happens when no one is left playing? It's not like wurm where you would essentially be playing single player...there would be nothing to do.)

Edited December 12, 2012 by Kryx

[Aelfred 15]

Can i have your stuff when you leave ??

[Hussars 511]

Was still interested in it until I saw the Housing entry in the second column of the "feature matrix":

"[...] Players can also buy your property for a multiple of what you paid based on risen property value"

So, you can kill me, kick in my door and decide you like what I've built and then just buy me out without me able to say anything about it?

Yeah.. no thanks.. this one is a pass for me...

::edit insert:: at least in UO we kept most of our skills when dying and could get back into our house as long as we had the key.. this just lets you buy the place outright... which, I assume, if you wanted to buy back would be even more expensive since the property would be "in demand". I might be interested in the download/offline version or a dedicated "custom" world, as long as we can change those mechanics as well.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Hussars

[Matlush 0]

I had a similiar idea to a MMO few years ago - permadeath, sandbox, able to live as any creature, characters not logging off when offline. Plus enforced roleplaying (for me).

I don't mind permadeath or loosing my stuff. I play mostly to have fun here and now, not to achieve something.

Characters not logging off when going online... Not a bad idea. Work gets done with scripts, you skill all the time, not only when you have time to play. Ok, you might die stupidly. But, oh well, death... what's the big deal ?

Still I doubt that spreading the player-base across private servers is a good idea. This won't be popular. And if all creatures are player-controlled... Lot's of emptiness.

Also with a such novel way of playing, maybe there should be dev-controlled (subtly controlled) entity, that could make living a little bit easier. Organising milita, creating kingdoms, etc... ofcourse within reason.

[Raybarg 436]

I looked into this project, I read replies in this thread.

These developers have really good idea and theyre about making MMO gaming history with concepts completely untravelled.

The replies I read. There is fears of what Topia could be based on the comment writers own experience in other games. All the "grief" clauses are based on prior experience in other games. It takes an actual intelligent approach, an actual thoughtfull and researching way to understand that Topia "seems" to be about. Quick judgement is only based on judging own perceptions of what something said is about without taking into account what the developers think as a whole.

I think they have alot of potential. I agree with some saying "it looks like amateur home project" yes, they use 2D sprite graphics, which makes game look like its meant for C64. But think about the "engine" depth they made, own scripting language, prospects to join servers together with different rule sets (if enough money is raised from kickstart). This game is foaming a possibility of becoming really popular experience, because it allows all players practical full access to the game content, not just access, but to add to it. Thats how I see their aim.

Lets go ahead and assume future possibilities. If this game project design is enough clear in how the data is structured between client and "server" then its not far fetched to realize it would be completely possible for players to make their own client a full-blown 3D first person (or third person, overhead camera) experience, still connecting to underlying Topia universe for persisten world experience. (I am just throwing ideas here, but what I want to point out with this imaginary thinking is that in all game development today the client is SEPARATABLE from actual underlying game mechanics).

[Hussars 511]

The problem is, looking through their forum and what has been published by them, the mechanics are where my problems lay.

Perma-Death? No problem, played games with it before, and is fine to me.

Characters remain logged in? I tend to have issue with this for no other reason than "safe spots" don't really exist in the game mechanics by design. Sure I can "hire" npc guards and build up defenses, but all it takes is one clipping exploit and *poof*. Yes this concern is based on previous experience (like in UO when animal tamers figured out you could teach birds to "fetch" from a house roof). But in an isometric 2d/3d game, these types of problems are very real concerns and happen way to frequently with dev teams having a lot more experience and resources to throw at the problem.

Purchasable land? Fine, almost every game that has "housing" has this, but allowing for someone else to purchase your "property" without your consent based on market demand pricing, No. Sure there are repurcussions for "Killing" or griefing someone, but this can be used as this games version of tea-bagging. To equate it to Wurm, this would be the same as being able to do a token drain, then buy the token. Any game that allows this and claims to be "crafting focused" needs to reread the definition of focus.

All that said, I do think their concept in general and the engine to support it are an amazing piece of code. I'd like to see more information on the eco-system and to see if there are specific animal resources that will spawn in low player population areas/server, or if this is something that can be added on private servers.

[Kruniac 0]

Lost me in his video at the combination of always online PVP permadeath. Further lost me at the concept of players creating "scripts" to make new actions available, and selling scripts in a marketplace....

You're always online. When you are not directly controlling a character, you execute a script to perform behavior while you are not controlling your character.

You create scripts with Javascript, and these scripts can perform various actions. For instance, I might want to have my character chopping trees and getting food while I'm offline. That's entirely possible.

So you can get killed, then they can kick down your door and steal your house? So you can work for ages on making something nice in the world and they can just move in and steal it. Imagine not just being able to drain deeds in Wurm but actually being able to steal them. No thanks

Absolutely. It's a sandbox. There are no artificial limitations to prevent any character for taking these types of actions. You can work ages on something, and it can be burned to ashes. Such is life.

This whole private areas is not really my thing... Also its 2d or i dont even know... no thank you

The "private areas" are optional. A way for players to have a test environment, or just to mess around with friends. And yes, it's 2D.

But it does sound like the pricetag is outrageously high for anyone who wants to really set up a largescale alternate gameworld with a more pve themed ruleset.

Not at all! This isn't a game where launching a server will support small numbers of people. With our developer toolkit, you can literally create your own MMORPG. We're working very hard to provide every tool and option a developer would need to facilitate this.

If it was a 1 time fee of say $20, then you can set up your own servers etc, minecraft style, I think it might be worth playing.

Again, the power of the developer toolkit is far more than "throwing up a server with different rules". Custom art, custom sounds, custom code. You would build your own MMORPG using the engine, just as we have. The only difference is that we've build the engine from scratch.

So, you can kill me, kick in my door and decide you like what I've built and then just buy me out without me able to say anything about it?

Not exactly. Influencing a property takes time. No one would be able to immediately take your property. It's simply a non-violent way of subverting an enemy. You could influence bodyguards, for instance, and over time, they may become loyal to you instead.

I agree with some saying "it looks like amateur home project" yes, they use 2D sprite graphics, which makes game look like its meant for C64.

C64 couldn't support these sprites, actually. Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with 2D sprites. See Terraria or Dungeons Of Dredmor for excellent examples of this.

Characters remain logged in? I tend to have issue with this for no other reason than "safe spots" don't really exist in the game mechanics by design. Sure I can "hire" npc guards and build up defenses, but all it takes is one clipping exploit and *poof*.

While I can't say there won't be exploits and glitches, I can say that clipping exploits are specifically unlikely. Our server authentication process to track players and objects is top notch, and it's highly unlikely something could "fool the system".

I'd like to see more information on the eco-system and to see if there are specific animal resources that will spawn in low player population areas/server, or if this is something that can be added on private servers.

Various wildlife, such as deer, rabbits, and dogs will be scripted entities not under player control.

Also, on the subject of private servers, I cannot stress this enough.

You can do ANYTHING YOU WANT on a private server. YOU will be running the MMO. If you want to implement insane cactus monsters, you'd need the art assets, then toss a script on them to perform behavior, and you now have insane cactus monsters. Your private server/world is not limited by our assets or implementations.

[bluemoonn 15]

Topia online is too concentrated money. I remember something about having to pay for character slots.. Ofcourse, as a developer of a game you want to get money for your work. But trying to get lots of it when the game is not even close to finished?

Edited December 16, 2012 by bluemoonn

[Kruniac 0]

Topia online is too concentrated money. I remember something about having to pay for character slots.. Ofcourse, as a developer of a game you want to get money for your work. But trying to get lots of it when the game is not even close to finished?

I have no idea what you just said. Kickstarter is a crowdfunding site to make developer projects a reality. Art assets cost money, developer hours cost money (we don't sit around doing nothing all day ).

[bluemoonn 15]

I have no idea what you just said. Kickstarter is a crowdfunding site to make developer projects a reality. Art assets cost money, developer hours cost money (we don't sit around doing nothing all day ).

I'm talking about the game itself. From what I heard, now, you have to pay for a lot of things (things which will also stay in the future, when or if the game is fully released.)

Edited December 17, 2012 by bluemoonn

[Hussars 511]

Howdy Kruniac,

First, just wanted to say Hi, and second, I assume you're one of the dev team for Topia?

You're always online. When you are not directly controlling a character, you execute a script to perform behavior while you are not controlling your character.

You create scripts with Javascript, and these scripts can perform various actions. For instance, I might want to have my character chopping trees and getting food while I'm offline. That's entirely possible.

That is all fine and good, how will your code handle recovery from server resets/outages? Will those scripts restart or will your character just idle? I would have to assume these would be something along the lines of [no user_input <for some set time period>, run X script] type of things, but still curious as to the plans (if they can be shared on this)

Absolutely. It's a sandbox. There are no artificial limitations to prevent any character for taking these types of actions. You can work ages on something, and it can be burned to ashes. Such is life.

Again, true. But as a game claiming to be focused on crafting, it begs the question, if I'm crafting for other to enjoy my work, shouldn't I be rewarded for it? In the system as outlined, the real reward appears to be for those willing to take from others. These types of players have nothing to lose and everything to gain. This is reinforced by the quick skill gains outlined. Add to it the script system and it becomes even less reason for those who want to grief in this manner to worry about losing their character since they'll be able to just "reroll" another toon.

The "private areas" are optional. A way for players to have a test environment, or just to mess around with friends. And yes, it's 2D.

2d or otherwise has less impact on me. I like eye candy as much as the next gamer, but for a crafting game to hold my interest, there has to be a viable gameplay element as well as progression. And this has to be just as viable as combat (PVP or otherwise) Again, in the current setup, I'd not expect to ever venture out of my private "sandbox" or to allow others in. I love the social aspect of games, but world based Crafting for me, especially where I'm building structures, is about what I built and ensuring it stays mine until I'm ready to part with it.

Not at all! This isn't a game where launching a server will support small numbers of people. With our developer toolkit, you can literally create your own MMORPG. We're working very hard to provide every tool and option a developer would need to facilitate this.

Thought this was only under the development license pricing? At least if you want more room than the default map size?

Again, the power of the developer toolkit is far more than "throwing up a server with different rules". Custom art, custom sounds, custom code. You would build your own MMORPG using the engine, just as we have. The only difference is that we've build the engine from scratch.

Again, thought this was tied to the developer/developmentbased pricing tiers? The base 125x125 default included only allows for placing items you've "unlocked" in normal gameplay.

Not exactly. Influencing a property takes time. No one would be able to immediately take your property. It's simply a non-violent way of subverting an enemy. You could influence bodyguards, for instance, and over time, they may become loyal to you instead.

As I mentioned before, this was based solely on the elements presented in the forums and the overview chart previously linked. The wording leads to some very open ended ideas on this, but thank you for clarifying.

C64 couldn't support these sprites, actually. Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with 2D sprites. See Terraria or Dungeons Of Dredmor for excellent examples of this.

Graphics, not my concerns.. so moving on...

While I can't say there won't be exploits and glitches, I can say that clipping exploits are specifically unlikely. Our server authentication process to track players and objects is top notch, and it's highly unlikely something could "fool the system".

While I have no reason to doubt your claims, it has happened in other games and was mentioned because those games were backed by much more money and experience. Now don't get me wrong and think I'm saying no one could do better or your team is lacking, just that it is a concern for at least some of the possible user base, and examples werre provided to show why.

Various wildlife, such as deer, rabbits, and dogs will be scripted entities not under player control.

Also, on the subject of private servers, I cannot stress this enough.

You can do ANYTHING YOU WANT on a private server. YOU will be running the MMO. If you want to implement insane cactus monsters, you'd need the art assets, then toss a script on them to perform behavior, and you now have insane cactus monsters. Your private server/world is not limited by our assets or implementations.

Again, the description here implies in some cases and directly states in others, that this truly open level of control relies on upgrading your account level (spending more money). So might want to either adjust/clarify the post, or be sure to frame it in relation to the actual costs/upgrades needed.

Thank you again for taking the time to discuss these points in an area that is likely considered "hostile", I wish you and your team the best of luck and no ill will. As I've said in other threads, I truly these type of ventures can only help promote gaming, as long as they are open about costs and what you get for those costs.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Hussars

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

I wish the project much luck, I love the toolkit aspect, but it is absolutely not my type of game either. (Obviously I am fine with the graphics since I linked to them in the opening post )

Edited December 18, 2012 by Brash_Endeavors

[aattss 0]

I'm talking about the game itself. From what I heard, now, you have to pay for a lot of things (things which will also stay in the future, when or if the game is fully released.)

Do not fear. In Topia Online, the only things you use real money for are the game itself(a one-time fee) and purely cosmetic custom stuff.

[Hussars 511]

Do not fear. In Topia Online, the only things you use real money for are the game itself(a one-time fee) and purely cosmetic custom stuff.

Would this include the service tiers (and their assumed to be individual pricing) described in the previously linked thread related to custom worlds? As in, a person pays X amount for the game at a set tier, and there is no future monetary requirement for ongoing service(s) like the server hosting, user connections/bandwidth usage, developmental support, etc...?

What if "my" world was enough to drive people to purchase the game, would I receive any of the proceeds, or would my ongoing upkeep/costs (in place of a subscription price model) be taken from that?

Would I be able to charge for access specifically to "my" game server at a set "development" tier?

And can you please link to sources which will confirm this was publicly stated somewhere on the Topia site?

Edited December 20, 2012 by Hussars