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Enki

Perimeters - What They Are And What They Are Not

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Deeds should always rule period any other way is inviting major problems other than someone having to move that did not deed.

The Object should never be to be able to stop anyone from deeding land they want.

The Object is you need to deed to own the land or face losing it down the road.

Edited by Protunia

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I still think that the fences should be added to the list of things that can not be repaired or built in the perimeters unless they are a member of that deed. (not the 5 free ones only the ones that the deed pays upkeep on)

There is no need to argue for new area of control features because it is the fence enclosure that allows you to do the very thing you propose. When you found a deed and buy perimeter expansion area, then perimeter fence and lock the gatehouses. You have that optional right per the fence enclosure rule, just as the community has a right to build a highway thru your perimeter if it is not fenced. Since this is a game with magic and you hate ugly fences add a terraforming spell where the priest adds a 'thou shall not pass' force-field, maybe with a shimmering effect so you know where it is because I hate invisilble walls in MMOs,....

The only thing you do not have the right to do is fence enclosure blocking an existing highway. It should only change to ban fence enclosures in the external free 5 buffer, but that is not a ban on open safety fences and open safety shacks. To avoid confusion the buffer should not even be identified as part of the token lands, instead it should just be the wildlands as a survey spacing rule used when a deed and its optional perimeter is purchased. Instead of checking that you are 5 away from someone elses free 5, you would simply check that you are 10 away from their border (which should be reduced to 6 but that is another argument).

Edited by yarnevk

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ok, so here i am, a n00b to wurm, walk out of essert and into the wild a little bit. spend a few days grinding some basic skills, make myself a few tools. where do I put them to keep them safe?

Cool! I can build a 1x1 house, put a fence around it and lock it and it's safe while I grind those skills up a bit more.

But hey, someone else just came along and slapped a deed right next to me and I'm apparently on their perimeter. Wasn't I protected?

so... then I'm out of luck, gather up my meager belongings and move along to do the same thing over again.

Does this have the potential to bone new players, or am I missing something here?

Yes you did miss something, which is rule #1 talk to your neighbors where a safe place to shack up is. They may say get off my lawn, they may take you on a hike showing you a long disbanded huge flattened but not forested property you never found on your corpse salvage runs, or they may say why don't you just join my village as I have a ton of work to do to be able to make the silver to buy that land you wanted to shack on which I wanted to as well. Give it a few months and I will help you build a villa there!

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Deed it or lose it. It isnt the best rule, but at least is it simple. If it is not being paid for then it can be made "open game" (if it is not in dispute then free is good). This at least gives the game a chance that if something has perceived value then the game might get value (deed cost) from it.

I question if anyone truly believes that new players need so much protection from the big bad griefers. There are far more ways that new players get griefed than having a small property deeded over. When that does happen, I feel for the new player but at least the rule is very simple and doesnt require 3 lawyers and 2 GMs to explain it.

It is the people who are trying to hold onto a trader without at least deeding under them, or slapping a fence around a mega free farm that try to use the newbie card to get the game rules to allow them to get value from nothing.

If you dont want people deeding over your fence, then deed it first. If you dont want people building a fence in "your" perimeter, then deed it. Pretty simple.

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Theres only 1 way for noobs to not get deed-blocked.

Make 4 gatehouses a bit out of your area in a square-rectangle so people have to purchase a larger perimiter to force you out, which not too many people do unless they REALLY. want your land. But the rule of thumb to prevent being deeded over (At least until your gatehouses decay), 10 tiles out will prevent anymore than 4 perimeter into your area, which should keep your current buildings safe, but if the person has money to toss, you best start packing because they can extend perimiter over you. I personally believe that if you have an ESTABLISHED settling as a freebee, you have the home advantage over deeds. Im talking a few legitimate buildings, fences, animals, a decent sized personal farm, all that good stuff, then it should go against the 'perimeter' rules and you keep your land.

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If you dont want people deeding over your fence, then deed it first. If you dont want people building a fence in "your" perimeter, then deed it or fence enclosure it first. Pretty simple.

Added the other option to your posts, what is being missed it that in your perimeter nobody else can deed over your fence, nor perimeter over your gatehouse for forced decay. Your perimetered fence enclosure has better protection than the wild fence enclosure.

Edited by yarnevk

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Yes you did miss something, which is rule #1 talk to your neighbors where a safe place to shack up is. They may say get off my lawn, they may take you on a hike showing you a long disbanded huge flattened but not forested property you never found on your corpse salvage runs, or they may say why don't you just join my village as I have a ton of work to do to be able to make the silver to buy that land you wanted to shack on which I wanted to as well. Give it a few months and I will help you build a villa there!

Two things here.

First, that's fine if they have neighbors. Maybe they wander around a long way, spend a week working in an area on this place with not another soul in their local, find a place they really like, then someone else moves in and drops a deed next to them. Also, I haven't played the intro in awhile so I could be wrong, but I don't remember them mentioning to ask your neighbors where to go (maybe it should be?).

Second, you're missing my point, which is that this definition is potentially harmful to new players. I'm under the impression the higher-ups would like more people playing the game. Someone who plays for a week and really likes it and is considering paying for premium and a deed has someone come along and their perimeter swallows up their house they worked on is likely to drop a few f-bombs and go play something else.

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Actually the last three paragraphs already cover that situation. They state that the enclosed area (as defined) is protected from theft and looting until said enclosure decays into a state where it is no longer a legal enclosure.

Ultimately it doesnt matter what a lower-ranking GM specified on the matter, such can be overturned or re-affirmed by higher ups.

Actually Enki only specified enclosures in perimeter, but not enclosures that end up on deed (because the fence part of an enclosure can be deeded) Seara said it right I think:

Actually, I think this is already covered in the rules, at least by implication.

If you deed over an enclosure fence, it can be considered that it now belongs to you.

Can we please get this explicitly stated, as I don't think this is understood by all staff and the player base ?

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Well the new player who was thinking about deeding? He now knows deed it or lose it. No matter what rule is made, established players will have ways of grieving new players or taking from them because they know the rules better. Keep the rules simple.

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Theres only 1 way for noobs to not get deed-blocked.

Make 4 gatehouses a bit out of your area in a square-rectangle so people have to purchase a larger perimiter to force you out, which not too many people do unless they REALLY. want your land. But the rule of thumb to prevent being deeded over (At least until your gatehouses decay), 10 tiles out will prevent anymore than 4 perimeter into your area, which should keep your current buildings safe, but if the person has money to toss, you best start packing because they can extend perimiter over you. I personally believe that if you have an ESTABLISHED settling as a freebee, you have the home advantage over deeds. Im talking a few legitimate buildings, fences, animals, a decent sized personal farm, all that good stuff, then it should go against the 'perimeter' rules and you keep your land.

And that was the temporary policy change made until redacted. The problem with it then is the only advantage of a deed was the deed management features, which are considered by some to be optional. If you do not need to buy the land to have your homestead protected, then why would people ever buy land? I highly doubt that having the option to vote on mayor is enough to keep the deed purchases flowing if fence enclosure was as good as a deed. Which means the main benefactor of that change was not f2p it was p2p that can afford to build off-deed villas all over the map to expand their trading empire. Which is why I proposed fence enclosures to indeed be the means for obtaining deed/perimeter lands, with f2p getting free starter tiles yet forcing p2p land barons to pay for all their lands. Of course for those who hate fences you add the option to build the deed/perimeter border without a fence, but it is still built like it is a fence.

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Added the other option to your posts, what is being missed it that in your perimeter nobody else can deed over your fence, nor perimeter over your gatehouse for forced decay. Your perimetered fence enclosure has better protection than the wild fence enclosure.

As it should be IMHO.

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Two things here.

First, that's fine if they have neighbors. Maybe they wander around a long way, spend a week working in an area on this place with not another soul in their local, find a place they really like, then someone else moves in and drops a deed next to them. Also, I haven't played the intro in awhile so I could be wrong, but I don't remember them mentioning to ask your neighbors where to go (maybe it should be?).

Second, you're missing my point, which is that this definition is potentially harmful to new players. I'm under the impression the higher-ups would like more people playing the game. Someone who plays for a week and really likes it and is considering paying for premium and a deed has someone come along and their perimeter swallows up their house they worked on is likely to drop a few f-bombs and go play something else.

I'm not saying that case is not a problem for it is, but you cannot make it a' Fence it for Free First to Keep it Rule', because that benefits p2p land barons looking to free load their expansions more than it does f2p newbies, and ultimately reduces the squattable lands for f2p. But many of the griefer conflicts on both sides of the fence do arise because rule #1 (it is in the FCC if you are looking for it) of talk to your neighbors was not followed.

Players on freedom are able to do many things that affect the game world, which in turn affects ALL other players. Just because you CAN do something, does not mean that you SHOULD do something. If your actions will actively and negatively affect someone elses gameplay, DO NOT DO IT, discuss this with them first.

Edited by yarnevk

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Wow! Creating a thread to justify griefing. Good job. I hope the price of expanding existing deeds offsets the number of new premiums Wurm's going to lose to players being expelled out of their places.

When you decide to found a village you have the responsibility to decide how large of an area your deed will need for future growth.

The fact that you can expand your perimeter (and over other people's buildings) kinda defeats this statement.

Apparently you don't know what you want, except that you caved in to a bunch of people whinning 'cause they weren't supposed to grief others anymore.

Edited by ReaverKane
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Is that any better though to say free enclosures have the same land control rights as a deed? Because that is guaranteed to reduce deed income from the both p2p/f2p population because they would see the deed token as nothing more than it actually is, a set of optional management features that have nothing to do with you actually owning the land. It is not sufficient to say the existing rule is a tool for griefing shack destruction, because revising the rule also has the downside of standing shacks being used to grief paying land owners. If fence enclosures are given the same ownership rights as deeds, then fence enclosures should should indeed create a paid for (first X free) deed.

Edited by yarnevk

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We must do everything we can to protect the new players and their small, personal, 2500 square plantations with traders and 70ql walls!

If we want new players protected (and I am a new player) then educate them about the rules (preferably easy to understand rules). They can be completely free and own nothing (wow, sorta like real life), or they can spend about $20 and get 1 month premium along with ~23 silver (10s purchase, 5s from 1month prem & silver, 2s from first premium, and 6s from selling refer), with that they can buy minimum size deed wherever it can be placed and pay it up for almost a year. Only need to be premum to place or receive deed, not to own one, now that is protection.

The alternative is to do 20 silver worth of labor in game, then buy in game premium and follow the above instructions.

Edited by Pollo

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A found this piece in another topic:
/>http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/69769-enki-on-enclosures-and-you-again/#entry688267

So yes, a deed can indeed brake an enclosure fence.

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And that was the temporary policy change made until redacted. The problem with it then is the only advantage of a deed was the deed management features, which are considered by some to be optional. If you do not need to buy the land to have your homestead protected, then why would people ever buy land? I highly doubt that having the option to vote on mayor is enough to keep the deed purchases flowing if fence enclosure was as good as a deed. Which means the main benefactor of that change was not f2p it was p2p that can afford to build off-deed villas all over the map to expand their trading empire. Which is why I proposed fence enclosures to indeed be the means for obtaining deed/perimeter lands, with f2p getting free starter tiles yet forcing p2p land barons to pay for all their lands. Of course for those who hate fences you add the option to build the deed/perimeter border without a fence, but it is still built like it is a fence.

Well, most people buy deeds to prevent theft and decay. Thats what I purchased mine for when I owned one. Most paying players prefer deeds, because they can, not because they have to. If all it took was a few fences and a shack attached, people would still buy deeds to prevent decay and theft. I can have a 2.5k tile area all I want, but if I cant maintain the walls without it becoming a community project, then its useless.

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But thats a T&M tradeoff as you can get decay protection by doing lots of hardwork of repairing/improving your fenceline, or you can do the hardwork doing something else to earn silver and just buy that protection with a deed, or you can spend IRL money to buy the silver. So my point stands that it is a deed management feature, you are just paying the guards to do it for you instead, but that perk has nothing to do with land ownership/control.

As far as theft protection goes a fence lockpick or fench bash is protected by GM fence enclosure policy on PVE servers. The advantage of a deed is it is preemptive enforcement rather than reactive, but it does not stop the griefer that pretended to be a honest hardworking villager, and that takes no player skills at all other than the art of the con.

Edited by yarnevk

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I see your point. I never let anyone on my deeds for that reason. I have a thing for walled deeds, both of my deeds had walls and gates, which I only allowed the main road through as access to passer-bys.

I feel i just drifted off from the main point here, but what I'm getting at is that by the time they setup shop with their fences and homes, they should be considered established and be untouchable, building wise. Sure you can perimeter over their fence all day long, but you shouldn't be able to do this to their buildings. That in itself should be considered grief. I completely understand that deeded land should rule over undeeded, as its not paid for, you're just holding it until someone else with the cash to do so claims it. If anything the BUFFER PERIMETER should just be that. People can build there, do whatever, but anything other than the buffer (Which is the outer 5 if you purchase more) should be untouchable by writted buildings, like they are now. Typically because they're designed primarily as a.... buffer between deeds, so deeds are not practically in each other, plus it prevents a solid wall of deeds from blocking things. Secondarily, they are expansion lands. If you maintain the default 5, you have no plans for expansion, and have not considered it. That should be their loss, not the person who decided to settle near thems fault.

As far as enclosure rules... Those are just things that people rarely bother with. Quite frankly unless you have a great deal of horses, your fences are safe. Of course its a rule, and people can get punished for it, but they GM's can't bring your things out because you decided to not leave things in a house, as far as animals, if they find that it would be a greater deal of trouble to protect them than get new ones, they can build one of these.
/>http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/5370/ultifreedomfort.png

My point still stands though that there should be situations where the freebe should win, else we can't build up a newer player-base because they get the boot every month or 2 when someone walks by and drops a deed near them, and the perimeter overlaps them.

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If your a noob and you don't buy a deed after a month or so you probably won't stay anyway. I don't see the problem. Mostly contrived it seems. It works fine as is. Deed it or lose it.

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And I don't disagree with giving newbies a break, but you have to look at the change proposed and say does this benefit others more and can they in turn take advantage of it?

The since revoked change of disallow perimeter over writ, had unintended side effects beyond no evictions for noob shack squatters. It meant the village griefer could be the one with the blocking shack with no recourse. It meant legal protection with no recourse for any free-loading land baron smart enough to recognize the deed token are purely deed management features meant to suck more monthly fee from their wallet when they already pay for the game.. It meant privateers making legit land salvage claims became pirates. So while it sounds good on the surface to say 'save the noob shacks', it is far more complex than simply that.

Sure they tried to say buy your expansion at the start, but if you intend to play for years that is not realistic to be able to plan that far ahead. Suppose a year from now they make a change that makes marshlands extremely valuable and you have some sitting next door to you, but you can't expand over it because someone else had the forethought (or inside dev info) to shack block you. Happened with olive forests, little value for compass making then they added an olive tub to keep your perimeter lit right?

Many prefer to earn their way and wait for a deed to make silver rather than pay for silver, so I do not think a solution that allows blocking shacks to exist is the right way to go.

Make the new player earn a free deed smaller than the minimum pay deed, and do away with the deed survey form limitations of symmetric rectangles with rings around them, and it would go far to solve much of the issues. Or even simpler don't disable repair for perimeter expansion over writ.

Edited by yarnevk

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My point still stands though that there should be situations where the freebe should win, else we can't build up a newer player-base because they get the boot every month or 2 when someone walks by and drops a deed near them, and the perimeter overlaps them.

Well we could make another GV and the freebee can win every time.

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And I don't disagree with giving newbies a break, but you have to look at the change proposed and say does this benefit others more and can they in turn take advantage of it?

The since revoked change of disallow perimeter over writ, had unintended side effects beyond no evictions for noob shack squatters. It meant the village griefer could be the one with the blocking shack with no recourse. It meant legal protection with no recourse for any free-loading land baron smart enough to recognize the deed token are purely deed management features meant to suck more monthly fee from their wallet when they already pay for the game.. It meant privateers making legit land salvage claims became pirates. So while it sounds good on the surface to say 'save the noob shacks', it is far more complex than simply that.

Sure they tried to say buy your expansion at the start, but if you intend to play for years that is not realistic to be able to plan that far ahead. Suppose a year from now they make a change that makes marshlands extremely valuable and you have some sitting next door to you, but you can't expand over it because someone else had the forethought (or inside dev info) to shack block you. Happened with olive forests, little value for compass making then they added an olive tub to keep your perimeter lit right?

Many prefer to earn their way and wait for a deed to make silver rather than pay for silver, so I do not think a solution that allows blocking shacks to exist is the right way to go.

Make the new player earn a free deed smaller than the minimum pay deed, and do away with the deed survey form limitations of symmetric rectangles with rings around them, and it would go far to solve much of the issues. Or even simpler don't disable repair for perimeter expansion over writ.

See below; I don't want shacks dominating deeds, not like they already can't for a few months.

Well we could make another GV and the freebee can win every time.

I think you're missing the point here. That's the easy way out, not the smart way. What I'm really getting at, and I'm probably doing a godawful job at wording it is, make it so an established freebee can stay put, and actually win in the case that they are overlapped, minus fence area if that's all they were overlapped at. I'm not saying a noob shack sits as qualified, but a proper image definition and a forum is all that we would need. That'd be easier, and probably simpler than changing game mechanics just for this to happen. Simply post a picture of your place and where the perimeter is overlapping, and have it approve/reviewed by a CM, etc.. Then if deemed, it will be forwarded to a GM if direct contact with the deed owner doesn't help. Simple hierarchy instead of going "GM HELP IM IN PERIMETER HE FORCE ME OUT"

So in hopefully the most basic way I can put my complicated idea...

  • Established freebee settlements can't have their building(s) perimetered over.
  • Should this happen, contact the deed owner directly; Try to work a solution, if fails, move to next step
  • Go on a (would be) forum section and post a picture of your place, where perimeter goes over buildings, and explain the situation and the deed owners response to you
  • CA/CM would look at them, deem if they're able to receive GM help, using requirement template as a reference (Optional: Try to convince the deed owner to work something out with the freebee)
  • GM would give a ruling on the situation based on responses, case by case.

Example requirement template:

  • 2 buildings minimum (4+ tiles each) or one large
  • Legitimate enclosure with farmland or two+ animals
  • Bed
  • Basic containers (Large chest, Large barrel, Forge or Oven, Food storage bin, Bulk storage bin)
  • Screenshot of conversation with deed owner (Chat logs also suffice)

That would be my base minimum as established. If you just made a 3 tile shack and all you have is a BSB and a forge, well you don't apply. Getting the bed would be the first problem with no help, requires fur and only bears and wolves give those. Killing one as a player with no armor at the time is not easy at the beginning.

Basically, you can't win just because you've been there for a week, and have 2 houses with nothing in them but 2 chests, a bsb a forge and oven. I'm only considering this as an idea because I don't know how that would work in the end. Sure people will be pissed at the idea because of "Deed it or loose it" will become "Deed it, build up, or loose it" which means exactly that. Deed it, or build it up to the would-be standard of established, or loose it. While I hate to make it a formal thing, because this is a sandbox game, and paid rules non-paid, but there needs to be balance. I don't like the idea of having GM's tell paying players that they're in the wrong for going over someone elses mini-village thing, but something needs to be done or else this will happen, and I've been in that situation before, it aint fun.

Edited by AndreC

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Want a safe place as a free player? Refuse to pay money to own land? And then you really want your land (our free land) to be protected against people who are willing to pay for that? Sorry, that's not how it works. Land is limited and of course the person who pays for it gets priority. otherwise we can all run around and make massive off-deed enclosures.

If you really, really cannot afford a deed, and really, really do not want to work for some money ingame, then join someone elses village or run the risk of getting overrun by someone willing to pay for the land..

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We must do everything we can to protect the new players and their small, personal, 2500 square plantations with traders and 70ql walls!

If we want new players preotected (and I am a new player) then educate them about the rules (preferably easy to understand rules). They can be completely free and own nothing (wow, sorta like real life), or they can spend about $20 and get 1 month premium along with ~23 silver (10s purchase, 5s from 1month prem & silver, 2s from first premium, and 6s from selling refer), with that they can buy minimum size deed wherever it can be placed and pay it up for almost a year. Only need to be premum to place or receive deed, not to own one, now that is protection.

The alternative is to do 20 silver worth of labor in game, then buy in game premium and follow the above instructions.

Think mate, ql 70 isn't done by new players. Its done by premium players who want to go without deeds, or want to land grab for free in adition to deeds.

Want a safe place as a free player? Refuse to pay money to own land? And then you really want your land (our free land) to be protected against people who are willing to pay for that? Sorry, that's not how it works. Land is limited and of course the person who pays for it gets priority. otherwise we can all run around and make massive off-deed enclosures.

If you really, really cannot afford a deed, and really, really do not want to work for some money ingame, then join someone elses village or run the risk of getting overrun by someone willing to pay for the land..

Yeahm and you know what this gets us? LESS AND LESS PLAYERS.

When Rolf starts shutting down servers because its impossible to keep up with the fees then you'll start crying that we should have more players.

When you look at a server statistics and see that most servers are at 10% of their capacity. Then you know sooner or later game dies. And sincerely having players actively overtaking other people's things is nothing short of messed up in a PVE server.

There's a ton of other ways this could be prevented, with enclosure limitations and more strict enforcement of rules, and faster acting automated abandonment detection.

What you want isn't to be able to expand, you want to be able to keep ppl away from you, and your post saying you'd dot the land with ql 80 houses just proves that.

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