Enclosures Should Not Be Valid In Perimeter Period! ( Oracle )

[Kegan 3,926]

The perimeter has never offered any real protection. Unless, that is, you paid for extra. Hence as a result, deeds could be placed very close together as was the case on Independence after the merger with GV two years ago. Deed holders effectively had no control over their borders, now they do but have to pay for that privilege.

That is why the 5 fee tiles should be renamed to "buffer zone" and not be allowed to be built on by anyone other then for roads and maybe guard towers keeping the area free for travel. wood cutting and hunting. Then any perimeter that a deed buys and pays for would be theirs to do what they want with and they should be the only ones to build there. There is no need for anyone to build fences on the perimeter anymore anyway they can't repair them and they can't hook them up to a house as it is now past the "buffer zone" and you can't build on the "buffer zone" anyway.

Edited November 16, 2012 by Kegan

[Ayes 3,715]

Please explain yourself rather than driveby trolling, if you disagree what is it you disagree with, why do you disagree, why do you think this is not a problem, or how would you propose to solve the problem in another manner. Did you even read the thread or do you just not like the font used in the title? Who knows if you do not say?

This is when the *ignore* option is very helpful in these forums. When you see someone such as this that over time has absolutely nothing worthwhile to contribute to the topics at hand, simply use this option. The only time you *may* then see their comments is when another person quotes them in their post but even then it is easy enough to avert your eyes from their quote and read the statement of worth below it.

=Ayes=

[Cartrip 132]

I have to agree with OP. How is a perimeter a way to reserve for future expansion, as stated by at least one GM, if someone can do ANYTHING in my perimeter that would prevent me from expanding (given that I allowed enough space +5 tiles of course)? This is clearly ridiculous, a poorly considered and reactionary rule, and it must change.

P.S. Under this stupid "enclosure trumps perimeter" rule, I vow that Day 1 if anyone were ever to GRIEF me by putting any part of their enclosure in my perimeter, a legally executed apocalypse will begin for them. I have a lot of time and a vast reserve of anger waiting for you. Nobody wants that, nobody wants extremely pissed off highly skilled deed owners making life hell for others. Nobody wants the divisions in the community that this rule can cause.

[yarnevk 257]

I read page 1, skipped over page 2, and now i'm replying so apologies if this was already said in page 2 but I don't have the time atm to read it.

I would say that enclosures are lower priority than deed tiles, but above perimeter. Why do I say this? Because the mechanics as they are now support this and therefore it can be supervised. Example - Someone has a house outside perimeter (legally) and fences into perimeter to "enclose" part of the perimeter, I don't have a problem with that. It isn't land you control, and so they can enclose it if they want. Then you expand deed tiles (since there is no house there) making the fenced area part of the deed itself. This should then give you absolute control, and be able to bash the enclosure's fences which are now on-deed.

The reason the OP made the post is that GMs are requiring fence or house decay to naturally break the fence enclosure rule, before you can bash down the fence even if it is now in your expanded deed after taking advantage of your perimeter expansion area to control it. How you want it to be is not how the GMs are enforcing it. Fenced enclosures are now completely protected even from expanded deed property.

Edited November 16, 2012 by yarnevk

[yarnevk 257]

The only time you *may* then see their comments is when another person quotes them in their post but even then it is easy enough to avert your eyes from their quote and read the statement of worth below it.

Which is why ignore never works and i don't use it because of that. I don't mind people disagreeing with me at all, or with others, I do however want a productive debate and someone may indeed cause me to change me mind as a result.

In fact have changed my mind about off-deed on perimeter fences/enclosures being protected from perimeter expansion when I was originally against it because I acquired my property in a manner that is now considered a bug exploit and I was not happy about deemed a 'cheater'. But I now see the advantages of using this new feature thanks to contrary forum posts to my original thinking that caused me to change my mind, and in fact am now using the new rule to build off-deed off-perimeter structures. I don't think it is good for the development funding and I think it will cause even more GM/f2p/p2p headaches, but I will use it to my advantage as long as it is deemed not an exploit because it is of more benefit to me than an alt deed or a blocking expansion by absent neighbors. I do disagree with the deed expansion not being able to break fences though, that is a result of a failed mechanic that does not distinguish perimeter buffer from perimeter expansion, leaving it up to unclear policy which seems to change daily. The only way the intruder would know the difference is to count tiles, having done my entire area I know how easy it is to mess up tile counts with off by one errors stacking up, especially with angled coastline and steep cliffs adding to confusion.

Edited November 16, 2012 by yarnevk

[Loremaster 21]

I agree that enclosures should not be able to extend into perimeter but I also believe that perimeter shouldn't be able to expand into an enclosure at all until it is no longer a legal enclosure.

[demondan 1,865]

The sense of entitlement in this thread is over 9000!

[Ruger 610]

Premium only server please?

This catering to the free to play is going overboard.

[Loremaster 21]

Premium only server please?

This catering to the free to play is going overboard.

A premium only server won't solve anything unless Rolf codes it so you can't build off deed, something which he probably isn't willing to do.

The sense of entitlement in this thread is over 9000!

Not sure who you're referring to as entitled, but deed owners pay for their land whereas enclosure owners maintain it.

[yarnevk 257]

deed owners pay for their land whereas enclosure owners maintain it.

Which I have to come to realize is a very fair way to do it, we just need to make sure those land ownership rules use the same mechanic to avoid any issues so both payers/maintainers regardless of f2p/p2p status can coexist.

Give someone a deed once they build a legal minimal free enclosure, or pay if a larger enclosure, or when you buy the deed this invisible (or physical) enclosure is built for you. Both can buy deed token management features or not.

Edited November 16, 2012 by yarnevk

[Ruger 610]

I find it funny how 98% of this drama NEVER exsisted like this up until Enki changed the policy. Everyone was happy with how things were except the f2p people who got pushed out, which encouraged them to prem and deed more times then not and the p2p people who got lazy on paying for their deed and lost their trader.

[Oracle 318]

Many people are posting false rules.

Read the rules, if its not in there then its not a rule.

[pacer 151]

I find it funny how 98% of this drama NEVER exsisted like this up until Enki changed the policy. Everyone was happy with how things were except the f2p people who got pushed out, which encouraged them to prem and deed more times then not and the p2p people who got lazy on paying for their deed and lost their trader.

you do realize it was Rolf that changed it

[Ruger 610]

Many people are posting false rules.

Read the rules, if its not in there then its not a rule.

The FFC is in the rules but then it says its not a rule. So hard to figure out what rules are what when the rules themselves tend to contradict themselves and every GM has their own interpretations of the rules.

Are you back from break or you just forum surfing for the time? Who is head GM atm, still Enki?

Edit:

Response to Pacer as you posted while I posted:

Shoot the messengers not the messenger. It is the way of life. My only hope is that the GM's are discussing reverting it back to the way it was and/or changing it all together to prevent/discourage greifing, 50x50 enclosures, etc. I would like to point out the fact that players are able to bash enclosures by turning down their distance settings they may not see that house that would be visible on extreme settings or if they run low settings already they might not/would not see that house as is. So theirs another flaw in the system. Review it, fix it, and lets move on from this perimeter/deed/enclosure stuff.

Edited November 16, 2012 by Ruger

[pacer 151]

Tis the way of life yes, but just making sure that everyone know's the messengers are just riding the bicycles....

To at least help with everyones pitchfork session, there are many things being talked about, but remember this currently

Rolf is on a 1.0 push....... does he stop 1.0 to re-code deeds to come up with a new system? any change is hard in wurm,either due to mechanics, or playerbase, or the fact that there are 3 moons

[Protunia 735]

We just need to know the scoop on deeds and their tiles vs enclosures and their fences.

[Evilvision 301]

Many people are posting false rules.

Read the rules, if its not in there then its not a rule.

Ok it seemed pretty clear until Oracle posted this. The post Enki made is not listed under the game rules so does this mean that post is invalid or does it just mean someone needs to add it to the game rules.

[Protunia 735]

Ok it seemed pretty clear until Oracle posted this. The post Enki made is not listed under the game rules so does this mean that post is invalid or does it just mean someone needs to add it to the game rules.

The rules are about as vague as that response given about the rules.

From all I have red anyone can make fences in perimeter or anywhere and make an enclosure once the enclosure is made nothing can be done about it because the fence does not 'belong' to you.

Well from the moment the enclosure is made it belongs to the enclosure.

If you deed over it you 'own' the tile, does the fence belong to you? or is the fence still belonging to the enclosure?

Read the rules here and you tell me....

http://forum.wurmonl...c/7-game-rules/

Wilderness:

Is any area not covered by a deed.

Settling in the wilderness, is tricky and open to frustration from land grabbers, vandals and outlaws. We stress that placing a deed first in every case is essential to assuring possession of the area of your choice.

Perimeters:

Perimeters are considered as part of the wilderness.

Firstly, we have to clarify that the deed perimeter you pay for is only an insurance to possibly expand your existing deed. It does not give the deed holder ownership of the perimeter area.

Secondly, you may not place or expand your perimeter area over existing structure/s that you do not hold the writ/s for.

Also, you can only expand out until your perimeter touches another deeds perimeter. So in that respect if your perimeter already touches another perimeter you cannot expand unless you have purchased extra tiles plus the default 5 tiles. If you have purchased extra tiles then you will have the ability to expand until you reach the default 5 tile perimeter.

Breaking fences.

It is illegal to break any fence that does not belong to you AND is also a part of an enclosure.

Enclosure is defined as a completely enclosed secured area, composed of fences (excluding hedges and woven fences), gates or walls and attached to or surrounding a completed intact house. Any such house/s being part of the enclosure must be visible from all parts of the fencing encompassing the enclosure area.

more about why deeds were changed... https://sites.google...ew-deed-system/

However, it was felt that there should perhaps be some restriction on what can happen immediately outside your borders, without it having the potentially land choking effect of the AoC. To address this a versatile perimeter has been added where you can change how close you allow others to build houses and deeds by purchasing more land at a very reduced rate. However, this is NOT fully deeded land. It can still be used by other players should they wish for farming, forestry and so on, but they cannot build a house or plant a deed in this area.

FAQ

https://sites.google...deed-system/faq

Deed and Perimeter Questions

What is the difference between a Deed Tile and a Perimeter Tile?

Deed tiles are the tiles within the boundaries of your deed. Your guards can patrol these tiles, buildings fully on these tiles suffer almost no decay and you can manage a large amount of settings for what your citizens and allies can or cannot do. The Perimeter Tiles are outside of your deed boundaries Non-citizens cannot build and maintain houses here and other deeds cannot be founded here.

Edited November 16, 2012 by Protunia

[demondan 1,865]

Ruger, last time i remember, it was a prem account that got his house and trader taken by someone perimetering over his house, locking him out. That was the bug that happened. And everyone is freaking the F out over not being able to extend perimeters now. How much land do you bloody guys need. buy 10x10 and sit on your 10x10. came back to wurm to hear about this added feature, perimeter? If its causing so much problem, remove it, so now you only buy the deed and land you walk on.

Edited November 16, 2012 by demondan

[Ruger 610]

Ruger, last time i remember, it was a prem account that got his house and trader taken by someone perimetering over his house, locking him out. That was the bug that happened. And everyone is freaking the F out over not being able to extend perimeters now. How much land do you bloody guys need. buy 10x10 and sit on your 10x10. came back to wurm to hear about this added feature, perimeter? If its causing so much problem, remove it, so now you only buy the deed and land you walk on.

Well if you read the post I made I said something about the prem guy and his no longer deeded place being taken over.

Second, More space, bigger and more fun epic mega projects. Not everyone just sits and works on one skill all day and thats the extent of their wurm life. A lot of people like to build mega deeds and take on epic projects.

Edited November 16, 2012 by Ruger

[demondan 1,865]

i guess you are right

[RomaN 890]

Enclosure is defined as a completely enclosed secured area, composed of fences (excluding hedges and woven fences), gates or walls and attached to or surrounding a completed intact house. Any such house/s being part of the enclosure must be visible from all parts of the fencing encompassing the enclosure area.

It's always been like this hasn't it?

I always viewed undeeded enclosures as unprotected properties because they decay over time and there is no protection or security.

When you pay for a deed, you are paying for options to protect your items/property and to be able to manage user permissions on your deed however you want.

[Ayes 3,715]

you do realize it was Rolf that changed it

Rolf is on a 1.0 push....... does he stop 1.0 to re-code deeds to come up with a new system? any change is hard in wurm,either due to mechanics, or playerbase

These statements confirm what I thought to be the case. Ulltimately Rolf is responsible for this new deed perimiter over existing house restriction change and that it was a quick fix easily accomplished rather than considering all the ramifications and spending the time to code a better system to handle the problem. Thanks for confirming and pointing this out.

=Ayes=

[Protunia 735]

Ok after thinking about about it.....

It does not say enclosures are protected from being deeded over.

That means you can deed over an enclosures fence.

Maybe now you cannot deed over the house, but you can deed over the fences and you can for sure KOS anyone you like.

It does not say you can't KOS someone with an enclosure.

It does say you must deed to protect your area and ensure possession.

That means once you deed tiles the area is yours.

It does not say you cannot break fences that are on your deed.

Since once you deed over a fence it does belong to the deed you can break it..

be·long

• be property of somebody or something: to be the property of a person or organization.
  

Pretty much that's how I read it and will do as I please if the case ever comes up.

Edited November 16, 2012 by Protunia

[Kyrmius 193]

surely you mean Rolf's code fix...................

Unfortunately from a Player point of view how do we know who is doing what and who supports it? That's quick sand for sure.

Better just to say "the Staff of Wurm" rather than throwing names.