Enclosures Should Not Be Valid In Perimeter Period! ( Oracle )

[Hussars 511]

Actually, I've expanded over an enclosure by accident before. It does happen. In this specific case there was a ruling so I'll not comment further on it.

The problem still remains, if you can expand over fences but the not the house, you can still "capture" non-house enclosure tiles. Either on purpose or by accident.

If fences are allowed to block like house tiles, you lose a merit of deed/perim tiles since you can now protect land for only the cost of time in building a fence.. any fence. We've seen enough issues with the perim system to know that it will be based on a fence being present, not as part of an actual enclosure.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Hussars

[Alyeska 2,621]

And apparently you forgot the part where a enclosure needs to have a house for it to be legal and protected? So he had to expand over a house, which again, is prevented by the new rules.

If there had never been a bug that allowed him to expand perimeter on top of the house this would never be a issue.

Just a few days ago I helped a neighbour terraform his newly founded deed. Someone had made an enclosure INSIDE his existing deed's perimeter, just hours after it was founded - on purpose - by putting the house barely outside and the fences inside the perimeter. We were not allowed to remove the fences nor could the new mayor expand the deed. We were able to convince the house owner to blow up the building but if we had to rely on the staff, nothing would've been done about it.

There is so much griefing possible right now, it's horrible. I can't explain how dissapointed I am with the staff's decisions as of recently. I understand the need to draw in new players but you're doing it at the cost of loyal, paying customers.

[Kegan 3,926]

I disagree, If your disallow all enclosure than even DEED owners would not beable to put up enclosures in thier perimeters. I have 3 Tree farms, and a Farm field all on off deed (but in MY perimeter) enclosures.

-1000000000 to this idea.

No the idea is to allow only the deed owner/members the right to build on the perimeter it is only the new "buffer zone"(the 5 free perimeter tiles) that no one would be allowed to build on. That way the "buffer zone" is free for hunting, tree cutting and road building leaving the deed perimeter safe for expansions later on or to use as they see fit.

[hankrearden 144]

wow you freedom people with all your rules make my head spin. I am sure the amount of GM involvement per capita is much higher than for the epic servers. Couple that with your cheaper guards or no guard deeds, there is a much smaller profit margin for freedom players, so dont be surprised when your game becomes a little tougher in order to balance pvp or rolf doesn't implement a 2nd code just for your servers. For those of you getting tired of all these rules and GM interventions, head over to your favorite epic server and play 100% of the game - where social interaction, player diplomacy and strength of resolve come into play.

P.S. pvp on homeservers is rare enough that most welcome it the rare times it does show up.

[Tpikol 1,057]

the only problem here is that u think u own perimeter,but enki made it pretty clear in this topic http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/69495-perimeters-and-you/#entry684810

Perimeter land is not owned or protected land, it is still considered wild unless of course properly fenced within the definition of a legal enclosure on Freedom Isles.

[Kegan 3,926]

the only problem here is that u think u own perimeter,but enki made it pretty clear in this topic http://forum.wurmonl...ou/#entry684810

And Oracle has suggested that it be changed in this post http://forum.wurmonl...100#entry686223

How about.

The default 5 tile perimeter is simply a buffer zone, perhaps we should call it just that a "Buffer zone".

Then if we think we want to enlarge the deed at some future time we plan a perimeter around the deed and the buffer then expands outside the perimeter. No one can build anything in a buffer zone, but only the deed holder can build in the perimeter.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Kegan

[Protunia 735]

the only problem here is that u think u own perimeter,but enki made it pretty clear in this topic http://forum.wurmonl...ou/#entry684810

Perimeter land is not owned or protected land, it is still considered wild unless of course properly fenced within the definition of a legal enclosure on Freedom Isles.

Well in this case Enki is right, but.....

He seems to forget that Enclosures are actually Deeds as well and should be held to the same rules as deeding land.

A Deed cannot enter another deeds perimeter at all.

Enclosures outside of the reserved perimeter land should not be able to enter this perimeter.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Protunia

[ReaverKane 363]

Just a few days ago I helped a neighbour terraform his newly founded deed. Someone had made an enclosure INSIDE his existing deed's perimeter, just hours after it was founded - on purpose - by putting the house barely outside and the fences inside the perimeter. We were not allowed to remove the fences nor could the new mayor expand the deed. We were able to convince the house owner to blow up the building but if we had to rely on the staff, nothing would've been done about it.

There is so much griefing possible right now, it's horrible. I can't explain how dissapointed I am with the staff's decisions as of recently. I understand the need to draw in new players but you're doing it at the cost of loyal, paying customers.

And previously, you could grief in reverse. Its not perfect, but seriously i find it better that paying players can't bully free players with expanding perimeters anymore.

Now new rulings need be done on enclosure rules, but still, its more fair than it was.

How about to prevent enclosures on perimeters, enclosures need houses on opposite corners to be ruled legal?

Well in this case Enki is right, but.....

He seems to forget that Enclosures are actually Deeds as well and should be held to the same rules as deeding land.

A Deed cannot enter another deeds perimeter at all.

Enclosures outside of the reserved perimeter land should not be able to enter this perimeter.

Enclosures aren't anything like deeds, and if you want to twist the truth go ahead. But don't expect people to fall for it.

Enclosures on FREEDOM give you a simmilar ammount of protection from INTRUSION and external interferance. But that's it.

You don't get decay protection, no guards, no perimeter, no kos, nothing. You "own" what's inside the fences and the houses, nothing else.

I do agree there needs to be a change on these rules. Maximum size should be 100 tiles, maybe less.

Like i said before, to avoid problems, there should be a mandatory minimum 2 houses in opposite corners to enforce a enclosure.

Finally speeded decay and other mechanisms against abandoned houses and such need be implemented.

Edited November 15, 2012 by ReaverKane

[pacer 151]

There is so much griefing possible right now, it's horrible. I can't explain how dissapointed I am with the staff's decisions as of recently. I understand the need to draw in new players but you're doing it at the cost of loyal, paying customers.

surely you mean Rolf's code fix...................

[Pollo 146]

Its all Pacers fault!

[Hussars 511]

Oracle's solution is still the best presented, in my opinion.

No one builds in the 5 tile buffer (this would not block paving for highway/roads, just no fences/houses - but would cause issue with guard towers)

Only deed owners/citizens build in purchased perim tiles.

Enclosures (houses with fences) block expansion.

Since noone can build in the buffer, no preexisiting structure can be expanded over.

::Edit Insert:;

While we all want the game to prosper, it is up to Rolf and the company to decide what drives the business model they follow. So any talk of lost coin/euro is best left to them. The proposed system allows non-paid for land to be treated on equal footing with paid, but allows paid for land to be used in more customized ways.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Hussars

[Kegan 3,926]

Oracle's solution is still the best presented, in my opinion.

No one builds in the 5 tile buffer (this would not block paving for highway/roads, just no fences/houses - but would cause issue with guard towers)

Only deed owners/citizens build in purchased perim tiles.

Enclosures (houses with fences) block expansion.

Since noone can build in the buffer, no preexisiting structure can be expanded over.

I think they can add guard tower so they can be built in/on the "Buffer Zone" will not hurt anything. The only thing that needs to be stopped is houses and fences that way the area remains passable by people and leaves room for trees to grow so people have wood and hunting grounds.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Kegan

[Hussars 511]

True, an exclusion could be added, oversight on my part lol

Just think a simple and straight forward system would be a better solution to what we have now. There are too many undefined or illdefined areas. Feels like we need Wurm lawyers as a unique character class to navigate the loopholes. ::edit insert:: Not a shot at the gm or game staff, just that it seems like your jobs are made that much tougher because of the inconsistant approach to these things::/edit::

It's obvious the system has grown into what it is because of system changes and exploits over the years, but continuing to simply slap chewing gum and tape over a leak will only take you so far. Lets spend some of the development time on looking at these types of systems indepth, and when a unified system is ready, rip the old bandage off and let the new system scab as it were.

You're going to lose players and you're going to lose deeds, but if the system is true in allowing for both free enclosures and paid for deeds to be considered viable options, it will only benefit everyone long term.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Hussars

[yarnevk 257]

Enclosures are in fact Deeds just of a different kind.

The only People who should be allowed to use enclosures in perimeter are the citizens of the deed and the mayor.

Reordered points in your post to more clearly make a counterpoint.

If you disallow enclosures in perimeter, which I agree with since an enclosure now controls land as much as a deed does, the problem is that perimeter expansion is not owned but only grants the sole right to reserve a deed expansion, nobody should be able to take that future deed expansion away with a perimeter enclosure. (I was not disagreeing with you on this point in the other thread, I was telling you what I thought GMs would decide)

However the no enclosure in perimeter (both buffer and expansion) ban needs to extend to the villagers and mayor because otherwise it violates the same rule that perimeter is not owned by anyone, perimeter buffer is permanently free for use by anyone, while perimeter expansion is temporarily free for use by anyone until the deed is expanded. If they could just perimeter enclose their expansion area, then why in the world would the ever need to deed their expansion area and pay more for no other reason than to let the templars work there? In allowing the mayor to do a perimeter expansion enclosure, you are negating the very thing you are wanting to promote, which is the purchase of actual deed tiles.

The current solution is not to pay for perimeter expansion if you just want it for off-deed enclosures, just freely put up the off-deed enclosure before your neighbor does.

Edited November 15, 2012 by yarnevk

[yarnevk 257]

Enclosures aren't anything like deeds, and if you want to twist the truth go ahead. But don't expect people to fall for it.

You don't get decay protection, no guards, no perimeter, no kos, nothing. You "own" what's inside the fences and the houses, nothing else.

Enclosure are exactly like deeds when it comes owning the land , the rest of your list has to do with deed management conveniences and not ownership. In fact enclosures are better than deeds because they do not have to be a symmetrical rectangle and you don't need an alt to own another one, and they do not come with a minimum 5+5 tile buffer.....

Simply change the rules to say an enclosure is a deed bought with sweat and tears, and is in fact the only way to build a deed, with the rule that only the in-common writ owner can build them next to each other, but you must be 6 tiles instead of 10 (2 for highway, 2 for sand border, 2 for fence border locking terraform) apart from other writ owners. Get rid of deed expansion. 'Fence it to Claim it', is in fact the way the 'West was Won'. Then add on for premium players the option to pay a monthly service fee for these deed management features.

f2p and p2p now operate under the same rules.

Add the option for the 'invisible' underground fence to be dug (you stil got the entering/leaving deed message). material is hot metal wire extruded using a rope tool, with better metals being harder to dig up if they are not in an enclosure. Make an above ground version if you really insist on barbed wire fencing but otherwise this will avoid the visual fence blight and allows mob and PC crossings, and also keeping the existing 'do not bust a highway rule'. Mine reinforcements are also now considered as fence and should be moved to the borders and not the tile (how does it make sense you reinforce a buried wall anways?) The invisible wire is added for free to enable the conversion of existing deeds if they are not already fenced.

Solves all problems of symettrical rectangular deeds and unifies the land ownership rule equal for f2p and p2p, and makes land management a p2p perk. Very easy to enforce mechanically by detecting when a valid fence enclosure exist and tag the interior tiles as owned by the writ owner of the shack, and port all the current deed ownership rules to the fence enclosure area. For the truly lazy they pay a huge fee for a fence autobuild drawn on a survey grid just like a house plan is as long as the gatehouse has the sufficent material in the bsb. Visually use the spirit templar as the virtual slave if you want to show the fence in progress (and add him filling olive oil while you are at it). The more templars you hire the faster the fence goes up to prevent intrusions, and the faster they can get to work controlling the mobs instead.

To practically limit huge fence enclosure, do the same thing as multi-story design which will practically limit sky-scrapers, which is the longer the fence gets from the enclosure origin (the shack the loop closes on but not intervening shacks) the more time and materials it takes to make each section, and the further down the line from the gate house the more likely the decay and mob intrusions, so that when the player leaves the huge fence enclosure breaks quickly But if they manage to build it and maintain such a massive headache, let them keep it. All these ugly 1x1 shacks (be the f2p noob or cheap land baron) without a fence being used to block a rectangular deed? They serve no other purpose than storage now, because someone elses fence enclosure can zig zag around them, they are nothing but a 1-tile deed now since they have no fence enclosure, even if they get surrounded they still own that one tile.

And if they still need more deed money to keep the servers open, siimply pay per enclosed tile as you would a deed expansion now, with the first many being free to support f2p, and then optionally pay for deed management features on top of that.

All the mechanical pieces are already in place to mechanically enforce what is already the political rule, that the enclosed fence is the deed.

Edited November 15, 2012 by yarnevk

[Sarcaticous 338]

My entire deed and all my friends entire deeds are fenced in. There is no problem with people making anything part of any enclosure. Problem solved. Hey, didn't even need to get a GM involved nor change the game in any way. Imagine that.

[yarnevk 257]

My entire deed and all my friends entire deeds are fenced in. There is no problem with people making anything part of any enclosure. Problem solved. Hey, didn't even need to get a GM involved nor change the game in any way. Imagine that.

This is my point the fence enclosure has been defacto deed for sometime so make it official that fenced enclosure IS the deed. I highly doubt that any land barons 'shack' enclosure got griefed by enforced decay of perimetered over it was only the noob f2p that was affected, and that could have been fixed by letting them repair and not blocking access nor expansion.

Which if fence enclosure becomes the actual mechanical deed you still need the new revised rule that if you do encircle someone, they are not blocked from access and repair, and they own their smaller enclosure within yours. You just fence right around them and hope they leave and their fence decays so you can pave over the bump in your expansion road which they did not actually block. Just a pimple to be popped at some later date.

And as a noob how cool would it be to get to name your fence enclosure once you finally got that last brick or plank up and legit say everything within is mine?

Edited November 15, 2012 by yarnevk

[Redd 4,281]

-1

[yarnevk 257]

-1

Please explain yourself rather than driveby trolling, if you disagree what is it you disagree with, why do you disagree, why do you think this is not a problem, or how would you propose to solve the problem in another manner. Did you even read the thread or do you just not like the font used in the title? Who knows if you do not say?

Edited November 15, 2012 by yarnevk

[Wraithglow 787]

I read page 1, skipped over page 2, and now i'm replying so apologies if this was already said in page 2 but I don't have the time atm to read it.

I would say that enclosures are lower priority than deed tiles, but above perimeter. Why do I say this? Because the mechanics as they are now support this and therefore it can be supervised. Example - Someone has a house outside perimeter (legally) and fences into perimeter to "enclose" part of the perimeter, I don't have a problem with that. It isn't land you control, and so they can enclose it if they want. Then you expand deed tiles (since there is no house there) making the fenced area part of the deed itself. This should then give you absolute control, and be able to bash the enclosure's fences which are now on-deed.

The point here is that people are prevented from building houses on perimeter, and you are prevented from perimetering over houses, so it really is a "first come first served" situation. However they have as much right to enclose your perimeter as you do right up until the moment you exercise your right to deed it. At that point, it's your land, and the mayor should have absolute control over what happens to it.

[Protunia 735]

I read page 1, skipped over page 2, and now i'm replying so apologies if this was already said in page 2 but I don't have the time atm to read it.

I would say that enclosures are lower priority than deed tiles, but above perimeter. Why do I say this? Because the mechanics as they are now support this and therefore it can be supervised. Example - Someone has a house outside perimeter (legally) and fences into perimeter to "enclose" part of the perimeter, I don't have a problem with that. It isn't land you control, and so they can enclose it if they want. Then you expand deed tiles (since there is no house there) making the fenced area part of the deed itself. This should then give you absolute control, and be able to bash the enclosure's fences which are now on-deed.

The point here is that people are prevented from building houses on perimeter, and you are prevented from perimetering over houses, so it really is a "first come first served" situation. However they have as much right to enclose your perimeter as you do right up until the moment you exercise your right to deed it. At that point, it's your land, and the mayor should have absolute control over what happens to it.

Well there's a question about what the 5 free tiles of perimeter are supposed to be used for as well before free deeds or enclosures were introduced.

https://sites.google...de-this-change-

The deed perimeter is designed to create space between deeds.

Your deed perimeter cannot overlap with the perimeter of another deed, though they can share a perimeter border. BOTH deed owners can use that tile border.

The Perimeter Tiles are outside of your deed boundaries Non-citizens cannot build and maintain houses here and other deeds cannot be founded here.

The ability to purchase low cost land round your deed (deed Perimeter) that prevents other players from planting a deed or non-citizens building a house. (First 5 tiles free)

However, it was felt that there should perhaps be some restriction on what can happen immediately outside your borders, without it having the potentially land choking effect of the AoC. To address this a versatile perimeter has been added where you can change how close you allow others to build houses and deeds by purchasing more land at a very reduced rate. However, this is NOT fully deeded land. It can still be used by other players should they wish for farming, forestry and so on, but they cannot build a house or plant a deed in this area.

Basically enclosures are deeds in their own sense because they control land. Perimeter was supposed to give space between deeds so that no one could control that land.

Enclosures are side stepping one of the foundations of what perimeter was suppose to do which is give space between controlled land.

Enclosures which are free and used like a deed which no one can place in perimeter are being used to control land that is not suppose to be controlled by anyone unless purchased.

This is why the deed owner reserves this land and IMHO has the only right to control the land if he chooses to expand.

Using enclosures to side step this rule of perimeter and effectively own it just like a deed inside of perimeter breaks the rules of why perimeters were made in the first place.

Enclosures have no more right to control and own land in a perimeter of another deed than someone else trying to deed in perimeter.

This is why enclosures must have rules like deeds do to control the abuse and misuse of them we are seeing.

Enclosures were not made for land control of perimeters they were made to protect new players from being raided.

The rules need to change for what is an enclosure and what it is allowed to do when it comes to deeds and perimeter because of the recent change giving houses immunity from having a perimeter on them.

The door is open for more abuse and exploiting by enclosures and needs to be closed as soon as possible.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Protunia

[Kegan 3,926]

I read page 1, skipped over page 2, and now i'm replying so apologies if this was already said in page 2 but I don't have the time atm to read it.

I would say that enclosures are lower priority than deed tiles, but above perimeter. Why do I say this? Because the mechanics as they are now support this and therefore it can be supervised. Example - Someone has a house outside perimeter (legally) and fences into perimeter to "enclose" part of the perimeter, I don't have a problem with that. It isn't land you control, and so they can enclose it if they want. Then you expand deed tiles (since there is no house there) making the fenced area part of the deed itself. This should then give you absolute control, and be able to bash the enclosure's fences which are now on-deed.

The point here is that people are prevented from building houses on perimeter, and you are prevented from perimetering over houses, so it really is a "first come first served" situation. However they have as much right to enclose your perimeter as you do right up until the moment you exercise your right to deed it. At that point, it's your land, and the mayor should have absolute control over what happens to it.

I disagree. We do buy the perimeter tiles just like we buy the deed tiles they come at a reduced rate of 1/4 the cost of the deed tiles but you also don't get the perks that the deed tiles give. Oracle's suggestion defines the perimeter in a better way the "buffer zone aka 5 free tiles" needs to be free from fences/house of any kind to allow everyone to travel between deeds and not get blocked into their deeds. The perimeter tiles that we BUY and pay upkeep on is just tiles that do not offer the added protection/perks that deed tiles offer but that we do have to buy. I feel that yes perimeter tiles belong to the deed after all we are paying for them and paying the upkeep on them as well. With that we should also be the only ones that have control over who builds there too.

This would make the best result in the rule set anyway. If a person can't build a house or fence in the "buffer zone" then there would be no need to build in the perimeter either as they cant hook any fence up to a house and make a legal enclosure. It is not like they would want to anyway they can't repair the fences and it only upsets the deed holders as that is land they buy and pay upkeep on for expansions. At the same time the enclosure people would get protection as the new "buffer zone" can not be expanded over houses.

Doing this the only thing left to have trouble with is large enclosures taking up "free" land and people blocking deed expansions with 1x1. As far as the large enclosures go the GMs can make a rule were they can only be like 20 tiles or something. As far as the 1x1s go the GMs should be able to tell without much trouble if it is a player living in an area or just them being used as a greifting tool.

Edited November 16, 2012 by Kegan

[Ayes 3,715]

Leave it as it is. Perimiter is wilderness usable by anyone. The only one who can make a building in a perimiter is the holder of the settlement deed. If you don't want someone making a fence in your perimiter fence off the perimiter. Simple as that. If you are too lazy to fence it off and make gatehouses then you pay the price.

I'm also having trouble with this buffer thing. If you really need a buffer or a place to make a road/egress between deeds then one tile for each side of a deed's perimiter is plenty. That would leave a two tile path between neighboring deeds. Why would you need more????

Also, lots of people, and I mean LOTS, have already built in this potential buffer. Are you going to make them just throw out all the time and effort they put into their perimiters?

I agree with Sarcaticous points made here. And specifically that a 1 tile border around each deed should be the only "unbuildable buffer" reserved for roads and access. No more land than this is necessary for this purpose. Make this included in each deed (at no cost per tile), eliminating the now standard 5 tile free perimiter. Additional perimiter can be purchased as desired.

=Ayes=

[Lancelot 765]

The perimeter has never offered any real protection. Unless, that is, you paid for extra. Hence as a result, deeds could be placed very close together as was the case on Independence after the merger with GV two years ago. Deed holders effectively had no control over their borders, now they do but have to pay for that privilege.

[Ayes 3,715]

wow you freedom people with all your rules make my head spin.

Speaking of Freedom people, your former (sold) deed Reardon Village on Deliverance went down on the 11th Nov. You sir, are a defector!

*jesting comment*

=Ayes=