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New Deed *placement* Perimiter Rule, Good Or Bad

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Thanks ReaverKane, and I'm ok with that part, always thought it was a narsty practice, expanding to evict.

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I assume that the lack of "official" responses in this thread for several pages means that this issue is being looked at behind the scenes. If so please close and lock these threads, there are arguments for each side and nothing seems to be getting accomplished.

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The can build fences, but not houses.

If the fences have no houses, then its not an enclosure, so bash is allowed. I'd also say that if someone fences in your perimeter then builds a house at its edge, the GMs would probably side with you if you bash it.

What you can't do anymore, and this is THE ONLY thing that changed, is that you can't EXPAND your deed over pre-existing houses. Which does NOT prevent you from reserving land for expansion, what it prevents is people forcing people out of what they want to expand into, but didn't reserve.

So yeah, this new measure DOES NOT prevent anyone from expanding, DOES NOT give any more value to houses than they already held, enclosures keep their protective status, it just DESTROYS a loophole that existed that allowed players to bully non premium players by expanding perimeter over their enclosures.

While yes, it could be and was used to "decay evict" people, it did also provide a way to counter those cases where random players built a small homestead (with or without the intent to "grief" the deed owner) that were eventually abandoned on the deed edge.

::edit insert for clarity:: To the community in general ::./edit::

Ultimately, deed owners need to police their 5 tile boundry and purchased perimeter, look for signs of someone planning to build (trust me, you'll know lol) and discuss the situation with them if you can. If you make an honest attempt to contact them to discuss it, and here is the important part.. calmly and rationally, and they still build there, loop the GM team in. At that point, you MAY have a case of willful griefing.

Sure it would be great if we all had unlimited money/in-game silver to deed, or at least perim the area we would like to eventually use, but this is not realistic. The way systems change in the game, look at lamps/olive oil where every deed owner had to add tiles, 10+ tiles in some cases, because of gameplay mechanic changes. You can not plan for this. Changes to the perim system.. again, you couldn't have planned for this.

Sure we can say the deed owner should have thought about it.. but just as easily, we can say the homesteader should have figured the deed they built next to, will likely expand.

Edited by Hussars

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I assume that the lack of "official" responses in this thread for several pages means that this issue is being looked at behind the scenes. If so please close and lock these threads, there are arguments for each side and nothing seems to be getting accomplished.

Could be another reason. It's already been decided and is awaiting implementation.

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While yes, it could be and was used to "decay evict" people, it did also provide a way to counter those cases where random players built a small homestead (with or without the intent to "grief" the deed owner) that were eventually abandoned on the deed edge.

Ultimately, deed owners need to police their 5 tile boundry and purchased perimeter, look for signs of someone planning to build (trust me, you'll know lol) and discuss the situation with them if you can. If you make an honest attempt to contact them to discuss it, and here is the important part.. calmly and rationally, and they still build there, loop the GM team in. At that point, you MAY have a case of willful griefing.

Sure it would be great if we all had unlimited money/in-game silver to deed, or at least perim the area we would like to eventually use, but this is not realistic. The way systems change in the game, look at lamps/olive oil where every deed owner had to add tiles, 10+ tiles in some cases, because of gameplay mechanic changes. You can not plan for this. Changes to the perim system.. again, you couldn't have planned for this.

Sure we can say the deed owner should have thought about it.. but just as easily, we can say the homesteader should have figured the deed they built next to, will likely expand.

I've been playing for about 2 years longer than you, so yes i know about "policing" my perimeter, but then again i never felt the compulsion to overtake someone's work.

Sure it sux that people build on your edge, and abandon their places, stuff happens.

And if you're not a douchebag, you'll talk it out or adapt. Crapping on top of other people isn't the solution.

I mean the same way those guys dropped a house or a enclosure, they could drop a deed, and then what? You'd start a fence war with them?

This is a game!

I think these issues happen because of Rolf's Generosity, and allowing us to trade chars and currency. But still

Creation of this account allows you the exclusive use of this account for playing the Wurm Online game by accessing the service provided by Code Club AB pursuant to the terms and conditions in this agreement. You acknowledge and agree that you shall have no ownership or other property interest in the Account and that the account is under the sole ownership of Code Club AB.

Its NOT your land,

Edited by ReaverKane

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I've been playing for about 2 years longer than you, so yes i know about "policing" my perimeter, but then again i never felt the compulsion to overtake someone's work.

Sure it sux that people build on your edge, and abandon their places, stuff happens.

And if you're not a douchebag, you'll talk it out or adapt. Crapping on top of other people isn't the solution.

I mean the same way those guys dropped a house or a enclosure, they could drop a deed, and then what? You'd start a fence war with them?

This is a game!

I think these issues happen because of Rolf's Generosity, and allowing us to trade chars and currency. But still

Its NOT your land,

First, please take it down a notch. None of my comments have been directed at you specifically, just addressing issues raised in counter to my comments. Which is part of a normal conversation. I'll reread my replies though, and if I have inadvertantly directed anything at you unintentionally, I will go back and edit/clarify.

::edit insert:: I think I found the problem in the post/response that triggered your reply. It has been updated to clarify the majority of the post was directed at the community in general::/edit::

Next, as someone who has been playing longer, I would expect better "role-model" behavior. Established players and community set the tone for the newer generation.

Followed by, yes, it is a game. A game that advertises I can play how I want within the rules as they exist at the time. The rules can and do change, and just as you have the same "right" to argue your side, so do I. I do not agree with some of the changes, so I'm voicing my opinion on ways that they could possibly be altered further.

Further, this does directly impact how I play and my playstyle, but I'm also not running around with a flaming brand and a pitchfork. I'm trying to add constructive feedback to the conversations (for the most part, yes I do get riled up as well at times)

As to ownership, the content and assets are ownded by Rolf and company. And this specifically relates the code, image and other file assests so I cannot claim to "own" portion of the game in a legal manner that would entitle me to financial recourse. The use of the deeded land I am leasing falls to me as long as I'm not griefing, carving inappropriate images into the landscape, or exploiting rules/systems. Within this context, it is "my land" as long as I keep in mind, Rolf and company can always evict me.

Deed rules have been clarified to state purchased perim is intended for future expansion of the deed, the 5 tile boarder is a buffer zone. If that space is for my deed to expand, why would anyone not connected to my deed be able to use it?

I've also said I agree with it being a completely no build zone if that is what is needed for it to be considered fair by the majority of the player base.

What I don't understand is why people are not willing to compromise on any point and to be able to settle this and move one.

Edited by Hussars

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The new system allows you to reserve land around your deed at a very low cost that prevents players who are not citizens of your village from planting a deed, building a house or improving/repairing existing houses.

Building Enclosures into the perimeter is the same as 'planting a deed' as it takes over the land the same way by declaring it owned.

This is not supposed to be allowed at all by the new deed system rules.

Enclosures came after deeds to help new players getting broke into and people stealing their stuff.

Changing the rules so enclosures are more important than deed forms is pure suicide for the game.

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What about the people who legitimately keep houses in places they can't deed, and some guy has placed their perimeter over their house before the change? I feel sorry for players already being griefed :'(

[08:08:28] This is within the perimeter of Wings Of Hubris.

[08:05:34] Wings Of Hubris does not allow that.

Hmmmmm...

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First, please take it down a notch. None of my comments have been directed at you specifically, just addressing issues raised in counter to my comments. Which is part of a normal conversation. I'll reread my replies though, and if I have inadvertantly directed anything at you unintentionally, I will go back and edit/clarify.

::edit insert:: I think I found the problem in the post/response that triggered your reply. It has been updated to clarify the majority of the post was directed at the community in general::/edit::

Next, as someone who has been playing longer, I would expect better "role-model" behavior. Established players and community set the tone for the newer generation.

Followed by, yes, it is a game. A game that advertises I can play how I want within the rules as they exist at the time. The rules can and do change, and just as you have the same "right" to argue your side, so do I. I do not agree with some of the changes, so I'm voicing my opinion on ways that they could possibly be altered further.

Further, this does directly impact how I play and my playstyle, but I'm also not running around with a flaming brand and a pitchfork. I'm trying to add constructive feedback to the conversations (for the most part, yes I do get riled up as well at times)

As to ownership, the content and assets are ownded by Rolf and company. And this specifically relates the code, image and other file assests so I cannot claim to "own" portion of the game in a legal manner that would entitle me to financial recourse. The use of the deeded land I am leasing falls to me as long as I'm not griefing, carving inappropriate images into the landscape, or exploiting rules/systems. Within this context, it is "my land" as long as I keep in mind, Rolf and company can always evict me.

Deed rules have been clarified to state purchased perim is intended for future expansion of the deed, the 5 tile boarder is a buffer zone. If that space is for my deed to expand, why would anyone not connected to my deed be able to use it?

I've also said I agree with it being a completely no build zone if that is what is needed for it to be considered fair by the majority of the player base.

What I don't understand is why people are not willing to compromise on any point and to be able to settle this and move one.

Oh, sorry, when i said "you" on most my comments it wasn't targetted at you directly... Sorry if it seemed that way.

I agree with most your comments, i'm just getting sick of half a dozen people who seem to have taken a liking to bullying newbies and distort the facts of this change.

Thing is people are saying "now enclosures are like deeds", "now you can prevent deeds being placed with houses", "now blah blah"...

Thing is the only thing you can't do "now" is expand perimeter over existing houses.

You can expand over fences (which can still be used to grief enclosures, if owners aren't ever weary of other players, which leads to a distrusting community, which in general is bad).

You never could drop a deed on a house who's writ you don't own.

Enclosures have been legally protected since freedom became F2P.

Enclosures don't have any of the perks of a deed. I've lived in a deedless area for months, and as soon as i could aford premium and 10s i dropped a deed. Not for land claims, but because it gives LOTS of benefits: Respawn point, bank, villager roles, fence gate control (which allows you to not live in a damn prision), no decay, increased skill gain, possibility of hiring a guard, automated lights. So no, Enclosures aren't deeds.

Not that everything is perfect atm. Never was, but now the system has shifted towards the "little guy" and apparently that's too unfair.

We still need refined rulings on enclosures to prevent huge land grabs, a improved system needs to be placed to allow for quicker replacement of abandoned areas. But that doesn't mean the new perimeter ruling wasn't a step forward.

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I posted my opinion in the other thread, but it's equally valid here I suppose:


/>http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/69670-enclosures-should-not-be-valid-in-perimeter-period-oracle/page__st__40#entry687162

short version is - you don't own perimeter, so people can enclose it if they want. they are already prevented from building houses in it (that, and preventing other deeds, is the purpose), so all that's left imo to make sure priority is assigned appropriately is to say that if deed tiles (non-perimeter) extend over enclosure then deed-owner can bash the walls. I'll be very surprised if this isn't already the case.

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What about the people who legitimately keep houses in places they can't deed, and some guy has placed their perimeter over their house before the change? I feel sorry for players already being griefed :'(

[08:08:28] This is within the perimeter of Wings Of Hubris.

[08:05:34] Wings Of Hubris does not allow that.

Hmmmmm...

Looks like whoever (^^) placed that 3x3 wooden house with 3 of its tiles on a public highway (illegal to build on public highways?) over the former trader from the Rockwood deed that disbanded over a year ago will not be able to repair their "legitamate" house, so it will eventually decay and then perhaps Wings of Hubris will only build a 1 tile stone house over it that is *off of* the public highway so that this trader will be open for everyone's use, in contrast to the current "legitimate" use of this structure that is being "griefed" by having perimiter placed over it before this recent change was made.

All just speculation on my part of course. Perhaps this legitimate user of this house should contact the GM's about this problem but, ooops, it may backfire on them and result in them being told to delete this legitimate house because it is partially built upon a public highway. Anyway since this griefing perimiter of Wings of Hubris, which seems to cover a very large area other that just over this legitimate house, so Wings of Hubris may have another intent for this perimiter rather than griefing this legitimate house, is grandfathered in as accceptable before this new perimiter change, the legitimate user of this house may have to accept the fact that it will decay away and the trader will no longer be available for their personal legitimate use to drain coins from protected from any access by others by this legitimate house placed partially over a public highway.

Two sides to every story I suppose. Who knows what will be the fate of this trader safely hidden within this legitimate house. Time will tell what enfolds but as my *speculation* is that Wings of Hubris will open this trader in the future to everyones use covered with a protective 1 tile stone house built off the public highway, rather that its current use legitimate use of being covered by a 3 tile wooden house partially built upon a public highway, I will leave it to others to form their own conclusion as to what is legitimate and what is not in this particular circumstance. Perhaps the current legitimate user of this house can have the legal perimiter of Wings of Hubris removed from their house so that it can be protected and returned to its legitimate use. You might consult them on the matter to find out what they have to say but I have little interest in their response and will just see how it all turns out over time. Since I pay for my game time with my own bucks, I have little interest in making traders secure in their own little comfy 3x3 wooden houses built partially upon public highways anyway to finance my Wurm adventures.

Oh , and as to this part of your post: "What about the people who legitimately keep houses in places they >>>can't<<< deed". I remember passing through this area frequently before this griefing Wings of Hubris (odd name by the way) perimiter and deed was placed and it seemed to me that all the area around this legitimate house was free open land, such that this legitimate user could have easily placed a small (or even) large deed over this warm snuggy trader, removed the wooden 3x3 house over the trader partially blocking a public highway, kept the public highway accessable to all through their new deed (which Wings of Hubris has done with public highways passing through it) and retained the trader for their own even more legitimate use, since it would now be on a deed. So a more appropriate term in place of the word "can't" above would be "won't' because then they would have had to pay for a deed to cover this snuggy wooden housed trader and the free ride would then be over with.

Good thing that in the future off deed traders that remain from long ago disbanded deeds can now be protected in their safe comfy 3x3 houses (even stone ones as is evident by another resting comfortably in the near vicinity) protected from people with evil griefing Hubris intent seeking to release them into the open air where they might be blinded by the brilliance of the Wurm daylight, will no longer be possible by these griefing types with the use of detrimental perimiter strategies. Heck no one should be put into the position where they can't save the 50 silver required to purchase a trader by merely placing a deed over an existing one and now there certainly will be no need to do so. Just cover it with a 3x3 windowless comfy trader house and it will be protected for legitimate use by those who prefer to make coins from the game trader mechanics rather than waste it on placing deeds over them. Another victory for the good guys, hurrah!

As at times I find it enjoyable to speculate and make long worded posts, I make no apologies for any of the above. The simplest solution I would offer anyone objecting to this, is to simply not read the posts or this topic and let others indulge in *their* choice to continue to comment within these confining boxes that are at times stretched by the imagination.

=Ayes=

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Oh, sorry, when i said "you" on most my comments it wasn't targetted at you directly... Sorry if it seemed that way.

I agree with most your comments, i'm just getting sick of half a dozen people who seem to have taken a liking to bullying newbies and distort the facts of this change.

Thing is people are saying "now enclosures are like deeds", "now you can prevent deeds being placed with houses", "now blah blah"...

Lol.. no worries, we all get heated and it's sometimes difficult to see when it is directed at an individual vs the collective (hence me going back to clarify on my posts too lol)

I know you and I specifically clash on some topics and support each other on other topics, misunderstandings are just the nature of the beast that is the "interwebz" unfortunately. But at least we keep it interesting! :lol: - BTW, I tend to not to take much personally, but when I do ..lol.. so apologies from me as well if I went a bit far.

On the general topic, I do think there really needs to be a more in-depth look at the system of land control/claims on the dev side. I know they're stretched really thin already (still surprised we haven't seen a dev go over the deep end and spawn pink or purple elephants everywhere), but this is a major gameplay mechanic and really does need more than a "passing" review. (Again, not a shot at the team, I know you're all busting your humps) So maybe restart the advisory/liaison team. Vett them like CA/CM staff and their entire task is to gather details from these threads (they don't chose, the GM staff assigns them topics to research), "boil it" down, and present a unified summary (hopefully with ideas of way to either address or targetted areas to dig in further on)

Don't give them staff tags, don't allow them to discuss being part of the team, but make sure their primary characters are either PVP or PVE and that both sides are evenly represented.

Could even take it a step further, give them company controlled forum accounts and don't allow them to mention who their characters are either. So no one needs to worry about saving face or potential ego issues/conflicts in game or on the forums.

GM staff would know who they are, so if something blows up, they know who to follow-up with.

Edited by Hussars

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This is why i live on chaos. I can stabby stabby if i like :)

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This is why i live on chaos. I can stabby stabby if i like :)

Then I guess you have nothing to say here. Be gone! :P

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Deeds screwing up my hunting. Deeds screwing up my road. Deeds perimiters screwing up my house. Deed's perimiters grabbing land. Deeds deeds deeds deeds.

Considering deeds seem to be the most volatile subject in the forum maybe Rolf should just do away with them all together and find some other way to make money off the game, eh? Seems no one wants to play by Rolf's rules and want their own will imposed on everyone.

Again, I'm fine with the way it is. I can see a one tile buffer for passage between deeds. Don't really need any other changes. Don't really know what all the complaining is all about. I see no other problems. Starting to sound like a bunch of crabby old women.

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Indeed GM is going to say that you did not own the perimeter expansion, you are just paying for the right of deed expansion to own it later on. Which is why the deed owner needs to forget about paying for perimeter expansion and instead put in a preemptive fence enclosure of their own.

This mind set is part of the problem we are having. I know what the rules say and understand how perimeter is being treated. But that doesn't change the fact that perimeter was purchased by the deed holder. I know when I buy something I expect to have more control of it then some random stranger.

Sometimes we need to evaluate rules not just parrot them. Every time these silly conversions come up it reminds me of this commercial -> http://www.youtube.c...?v=SWo-vDVajns.

It was made for Ally bank. Just like some banks take your money and severely limit how you benefit from the services purchased, Wurm takes your money spent on perimeter and laughs in your face when some random dude makes an enclosures or road in that area. IMO, the GM's current treatment of perimeter is stupid and is and good example of manipulative customer service.

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