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New Deed *placement* Perimiter Rule, Good Or Bad

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I recently made a deed with a large perimiter, so from experience I can say that this large perimiter initially costs silver to place for each tile, although at a reduced cost in contrast for a *deed* tile. Also, this large perimiter adds to the monthly maintenance fee of the deed. So the availability of the option to purchase an expanded perimiter beyond the 5 tiles included in the deed setup contributes to Rolfs income initially and each month that follows; thus I think he is wise enough to let this practice continue and not listen to shortsighted advice to discontinue this practice.

Ok then lets discuss income streams - Yes a large perim initially costs and generates monthly income via upkeep.....at a greatly reduced cost vs deed tiles. Having these large perims also prevents others who may like to put down a deed, which has a much higher monthly upkeep per tile, from setting up a real deed. So by allowing large perimeters...the system has reduced

1. the amount of people per server (ultimately) and

2.reduced income by limiting the number of actual deeds that can be placed on a server. This results in a lower income per month per server...this could also be called shortsighted and unwise.

On the otherhand, Rolf is generously *giving* free unpaid for land to others by enforcing an enclosure rule and sanctioning it as acceptable practice to be used by those that don't want to pay anything for using this land, in contrast to deeds and large perimiters. Furthermore, with this new *can't place perimiter over existing buildings* practice, he is restricting his income from future deeds and extended perimiters that will no longer be able to be placed. In addition, there will be the loss of deed income from areas that were previously able to be deeded that are now blocked from being deeded by random buildings at larger dispersed intervals which prevent deed placement due to this new perimiter over house restriction. Nice *free* giveaways courtesy of Rolf to those who don't want to pay for the land they are using and also want their buildings to be *protected* from perimiter coverage repair restrictions.

Rework the game to where nothing can be built off deed. Period..nothing but perhaps roads..which is a completely different animal. Use a temp deed system to allow new players to setup and try the game. Do away with perims all together...if you want land..deed it.

The game needs a rework / relook / redesign from a high level perspective. IMO more emphasis needs to be placed on those that are paying for deeds however it should not come at the expense of inadvertantly discouraging new players or creating a "Pay to Win" scenario. The game atm seems to be drowning in minutia and with every change, regardless of intended effect,its having large implications to a lot of players overall playstyle. The perim system doesnt work, it lowers the amount of deedable land therfore limiting the number of deeds...which are one of the primary sources of income for the game and causes a lot of grief for everyone..whether you like the perim system or not..both sides have issues with it to some degree, especailly if there are changes made to it..ie this thread. It ultimately causes more problems than it could ever hope to solve and it lowers overall income to the game itself....the positive effects a perim system presents can be handled much better in several different forms. Its outlived its usefullness and its time for it to go.

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Just what is your problem with perimiters? They fixed it so they can't go over writs. Do you have a hard on for people with bigger perimiters than yours? Out of hundreds of people playing the game only a handful are complaining about perimiters. Why should a major game mechanic be changed so drastically for a handful of people who prefer little perimiters over big perimiters. Must be an ego thing maybe?

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He should have made perimeters over sized cost more anyways to stop people from having 50 sized perimeters on a 5 deed.

I think some formula based on deed tiles to the size of perimeter you are allowed to have should be in place.

As far as other peoples houses you should not have been able to deed over them anyways the change just is closing a loop hole and ends a lot of head aches for GM's and players who have lived through people purposely using perimeter and/or deeds just to mess with their game play.

Enki has it right as always and this is the best solution for most players, that is not to say I have not placed a deed over decaying structures before though they had walls missing at the time. ( this might be something to consider.)

The only thing I might change is that houses missing any wall do not count as a completed house and could be expanded over.

There was a time I thought this was a feature too so you could deed over houses that are left decaying, but it has turned into people deeding over players who are still there playing and that are just coming to the game.

People who are playing for free are people that could become customers in the future and this change protects them from being messed with while they are just getting started and will stop people from quitting the game before they even start because of some protective player slapping a perimeter on them.

Placing a deed with expansion in mind means you need to use perimeter first to claim future use then expand, I have done that many times already when placing deeds. Not you can keep expanding perimeter over and over on top of peoples houses and game play.

Perimeter is not owned and should give no control to a deed owner.

I am glad to see that this change makes perimeter less effective and have less power I hope for more such changes to finally get it through the heads of those abusing perimeter that you need to use deed tiles to own land.

As usual I disagree with you on at least one point.

IMHO a non-premium Player that has not gone to the Wurm Store and bought silver and purchased a Deed from as Trader has Far Less Right to use anyone's Perimeter than the Deed Owner themselves do.

I hate money with a passion, I mean I really hate it, but Rolf has to pay for the Servers somehow. That's not Rolf's fault, that Our fault as a species. Rolf needs money to keep the Servers running and Players paying premium time and purchasing deeds with silver bought from the Wurm Store does that. Players such as this should get first rights to build in a deed's perimeter vs. Players whom do not.

Some people that play for free now will become customers in the future, agreed, but you don't slap the curret customers in the face just to woo future customers.

Telling Deed Holders they have less of a right to build in their own deed's perimeter than a Free to Play Players has is not just a slap in the face, it's an Insult.

It's really that simple.

oh, and I was a F2P "Basic" account Player for a couple of years and I still say F2P should NEVER build in anyone's perimeter. The only Players that should be able to are premium players. I felt that way then and I still do. That is my point of view on that matter.

(Perimeter is NOT for expansion anyways, it's a buffer zone to allow Players to navigate around deeds withour getting landlocked and to keep actual deed boundries from touching and creating fights between deed holders about whether the "fence should be stone or wood" kind of nonsense. Perimeters benefit GMs far more than they benefit deed holders. *IF* a perimeter could actually be used for expansion then we should be able to use it up without creating new perimeter outside of it. Saying "Perimeter is for expansion" now after this rule change is just a play on words is all.)

Edited by Kyrmius
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How about.

The default 5 tile perimeter is simply a buffer zone, perhaps we should call it just that a "Buffer zone".

Then if we think we want to enlarge the deed at some future time we plan a perimeter around the deed and the buffer then expands outside the perimeter. No one can build anything in a buffer zone, but only the deed holder can build in the perimeter.

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Ok then lets discuss income streams - Yes a large perim initially costs and generates monthly income via upkeep.....at a greatly reduced cost vs deed tiles. Having these large perims also prevents others who may like to put down a deed, which has a much higher monthly upkeep per tile, from setting up a real deed. So by allowing large perimeters...the system has reduced

1. the amount of people per server (ultimately) and

2.reduced income by limiting the number of actual deeds that can be placed on a server. This results in a lower income per month per server...this could also be called shortsighted and unwise.

Once again, incorrect. The above would only be true if the servers actually run out of land. How many people do you see posting here saying "I give up on wurm because I can't find a place to put my deed because of all these huge perimeters everywhere!!!!1"

Zero.

And if such a statement were to be made it would surely be made about non-deed enclosures first.

Rework the game to where nothing can be built off deed. Period..nothing but perhaps roads..which is a completely different animal. Use a temp deed system to allow new players to setup and try the game. Do away with perims all together...if you want land..deed it.

Yet another bad idea that would hurt the game's growth from new players. I, like nearly every other deed holder, built off deed first to try the game out before I paid $10 euro for a deed form. If I couldn't have done that I am highly unlikely to have bought into wurm.

The game needs a rework / relook / redesign from a high level perspective. IMO more emphasis needs to be placed on those that are paying for deeds however it should not come at the expense of inadvertantly discouraging new players or creating a "Pay to Win" scenario. The game atm seems to be drowning in minutia and with every change, regardless of intended effect,its having large implications to a lot of players overall playstyle. The perim system doesnt work, it lowers the amount of deedable land therfore limiting the number of deeds...which are one of the primary sources of income for the game and causes a lot of grief for everyone..whether you like the perim system or not..both sides have issues with it to some degree, especailly if there are changes made to it..ie this thread. It ultimately causes more problems than it could ever hope to solve and it lowers overall income to the game itself....the positive effects a perim system presents can be handled much better in several different forms. Its outlived its usefullness and its time for it to go.

Again wrong. The amount of deeds is not currently limited by the amount of deedable land. There is tons of deedable land available. Anyone looking to put a deed down has many, many options.

The perimeter system works, and this last change removes the only consistent complaint I've seen about it. It was intended to create a buffer between deeds, reserve land for expansion, at a small fraction of the cost of full deed tiles, and it does that. What exactly is wrong?

I really don't think the game needs a re-design. What I see is Rolf has a very clear view on where he wants to take the game and the company's consistently working towards that objective. Yes, it's a complicated game with a lot of rules, and that's to be expected for a sandbox MMO, in fact that's the very idea of wurm. When you change a rule in a complex interrelated set of rules, you have ripple effects. Normal, acceptable, accept it and continue.

Regards,

Shiraek

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How about.

The default 5 tile perimeter is simply a buffer zone, perhaps we should call it just that a "Buffer zone".

Then if we think we want to enlarge the deed at some future time we plan a perimeter around the deed and the buffer then expands outside the perimeter. No one can build anything in a buffer zone, but only the deed holder can build in the perimeter.

Sounds nice and clear :)

No one can build anything in a buffer zone, or nobody can build a house in a buffer zone ala the current rules? There's plenty of situations where a fence in a buffer zone can be a big positive.

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How about.

The default 5 tile perimeter is simply a buffer zone, perhaps we should call it just that a "Buffer zone".

Then if we think we want to enlarge the deed at some future time we plan a perimeter around the deed and the buffer then expands outside the perimeter. No one can build anything in a buffer zone, but only the deed holder can build in the perimeter.

This along with no placing your now buffer zone over a house unless you have the writ to it?

Fine with me.

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How about.

The default 5 tile perimeter is simply a buffer zone, perhaps we should call it just that a "Buffer zone".

Then if we think we want to enlarge the deed at some future time we plan a perimeter around the deed and the buffer then expands outside the perimeter. No one can build anything in a buffer zone, but only the deed holder can build in the perimeter.

I like it but their are a few things that need to be fixed here still.

1. Enclosure rules, limit the size.

2. Increased decay rate on off deed housing or re-visit the policy so its clear that players are not allowed to intentionally perimeter block another player.

3. The catering to free to play has to come to an end. People have no problem paying for games now a days. If you continue to hand feed the freebies they will look for more and more hand outs at the penalty of the paying players.

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How about.

The default 5 tile perimeter is simply a buffer zone, perhaps we should call it just that a "Buffer zone".

Then if we think we want to enlarge the deed at some future time we plan a perimeter around the deed and the buffer then expands outside the perimeter. No one can build anything in a buffer zone, but only the deed holder can build in the perimeter.

Yes do it

Edited by Protunia

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It's really troubling how many talk as if only free players have enclosures or the only reason to buy premium is to get a deed. I am very happy in my enclosure as a deed is too easy mode for me and I am even happier now that I can't be forced out by someone who thinks they have rights to the land because they have a deed.

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It's really troubling how many talk as if only free players have enclosures or the only reason to buy premium is to get a deed. I am very happy in my enclosure as a deed is too easy mode for me and I am even happier now that I can't be forced out by someone who thinks they have rights to the land because they have a deed.

If they can expand deeded tiles over fences your enclosure won't count.

Basically you have to build houses all the way around the enclosure or have a small enough enclosure 5 tiles that they cannot deed over it.

An enclosure of 5 tiles is not going to cause a lot of issues with many people.

Edited by Protunia

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"Paid for expansion" perimeter tiles and "unpaid for compulsory millstone around neck" perimeter tiles serve two different functions and should have different names and different rules really. (It's not acceptable to pay for land that others can block, use, build on and take resources from - without them spending an iron).

For millstone around neck perimeter: do we need a ten tile stretch as a buffer between deeds? srsly? And if it's a buffer why can people block it by building on it and fencing there, or digging great holes?

Lastly being able to claiming big areas of land without a deeding it encourages people to skill up for less repairs and do just that. Is non-deeded ownership of huge tracts of land a desirable outcome? I don't believe code cannot be made to permit small protected encolosures for new players, off deed and off perimeter (either kind of perimeter).

As the sitting duck within the "buffer" I also think the deed owner, the paying player, should have more leverage there than anyone else.

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Considering that this is Wurm, its a sandbox game that you can do whatever you want, within reason. Play Wurm alone, and its just minecraft singleplayer. You accomplish so much, but nobody to show it to, or to enjoy it with. This actually encourages local community assistance as well as relationships. Sure, you have some noob that comes trampling all over your place and puts up a shack outside your perimeter where you plan to expand. Either learn to compromise, or convince them to join and give you the writ, or help them relocate. Once they realize that they won't win in the end of the day, you can have your expansion zone back. Should they wish to stay, either ACCOMMODATE them, or help them settle in.

Consider the following: If its a complete noob, they'll either become bored after a month or two, or they'll get into it and move on to their own place. If your impending expansion was either important or necessary, you would have extended your deed a long time ago. Also the fact that this has been defined as a long lasting bug means it wasn't meant for a paying player to be able to basically force a non-paying person to move or watch their building slowly fall apart. That right there is a major turn off.

EDIT- Although, I think you should be able to put perimiter over players buildings IF THAT PLAYER HAS NOT LOGGED IN IN OVER 60 DAYS. It doesn't take a genious to log in within 60 days. And should they come back after 60 days, they should recieve a nice orange notice about their building taht was expanded over, and that they either need to negotiate with the deed owner, or relocate.

Edited by AndreC

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Just going over published things about Perimeter.

A couple of things there kind of say the new rule is against what is said about building off deed and perimeter being allowed to be expanded.

If we are going to be making a new deed system again will their be refunds?

https://sites.google...ew-deed-system/

Deed Perimeter

However, it was felt that there should perhaps be some restriction on what can happen immediately outside your borders, without it having the potentially land choking effect of the AoC. To address this a versatile perimeter has been added where you can change how close you allow others to build houses and deeds by purchasing more land at a very reduced rate. However, this is NOT fully deeded land. It can still be used by other players should they wish for farming, forestry and so on, but they cannot build a house or plant a deed in this area.

As part of the new system we are getting rid of the two perimeter systems currently used and replacing it with one system. We are losing:

  • The managed perimeter from February 2009, commonly called the Area of Control

  • The very old limited deed-to-deed system that set how far deeds could be placed apart.

The New Deed Perimeter

The new system allows you to reserve land around your deed at a very low cost that prevents players who are not citizens of your village from planting a deed, building a house or improving/repairing existing houses. This land is not purchased or owned by you and does not benefit from no-decay, guards or the fine controls that you have with fully deeded tiles that prevent non-citizens from farming, cutting down trees, fencing and so on.

The functionality of the deed perimeter is to prevent others from building where you may want a buffer zone, possibly for future expansion.

You will not be able to change what is or what is not allowed in the new system.

  • The minimum perimeter size is 5 tiles from the deed border.

  • There is no maximum perimeter size.

  • Your deed perimeter cannot overlap with the perimeter of another deed, though they can share a perimeter border. BOTH deed owners can use that tile border.

  • The first five tiles of perimeter from your deed border is free.

  • You can change the size of your perimeter as often as you wish.

Stage Two - The Deed Perimeter Size

Congratulations! You will be shown the size of your deed and given the cost for purchasing this land and for its upkeep. The next stage is to set the deed perimeter.

It is important to note that perimeter tiles are just there to stop non-citizens from building too close to your settlement and to stop the founding of another settlement in that area. They are not the same as the old AoC. You get a default perimeter of 5 tiles from your settlement border at not cost, but you can buy a larger perimeter if you wish on this page of the Settlement Form. For more information on Deed Perimeter, see https://sites.google...deed-perimeter

Enter the number of tiles of additional perimeter over and above the free 5 tiles in the box provided, and then click on Survey Area.

If there is not enough room an error will be displayed. If all is well, you will be taken to the next stage.

The ability to purchase low cost land round your deed (deed Perimeter) that prevents other players from planting a deed or non-citizens building a house. (First 5 tiles free)

Wilderness:

Is any area not covered by a deed.

Settling in the wilderness, is tricky and open to frustration from land grabbers, vandals and outlaws. We stress that placing a deed first in every case is essential to assuring possession of the area of your choice.

Hints:

For non deeded wilderness settlements, use house gates not ordinary gates, and good ql stone walls. Strategicaly place housing to restrict other players dropping a deed over anything you wish to protect.

This will help you to help us in restricting possible griefing.

Perimeters:

Perimeters are considered as part of the wilderness.

Firstly, we have to clarify that the deed perimeter you pay for is only an insurance to possibly expand your existing deed. It does not give the deed holder ownership of the perimeter area.

Secondly, you may not place or expand your perimeter area over existing structure/s that you do not hold the writ/s for.

Also, you can only expand out until your perimeter touches another deeds perimeter. So in that respect if your perimeter already touches another perimeter you cannot expand unless you have purchased extra tiles plus the default 5 tiles. If you have purchased extra tiles then you will have the ability to expand until you reach the default 5 tile perimeter.

Edited by Protunia

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The whole issue as I see it is that perimeters serve no purpose anymore. Houses is the most efficient and very cheap way to prevent close neigbors. Before it only prevented the more expensive deed tiles and you needed to place houses very close to block anyone off.

I liked how it were and even wanted walls to be included in the no build in perimeter rule.

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How about.

The default 5 tile perimeter is simply a buffer zone, perhaps we should call it just that a "Buffer zone".

Then if we think we want to enlarge the deed at some future time we plan a perimeter around the deed and the buffer then expands outside the perimeter. No one can build anything in a buffer zone, but only the deed holder can build in the perimeter.

Some of us already have buildings etc in the 'buffer zone' they are part of our deeds. I have one particular building that crosses from one deed to the next through the 2 'buffer zones'. No way do I want to not be able to build anything in the area just outside of my deed.

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Some of us already have buildings etc in the 'buffer zone' they are part of our deeds. I have one particular building that crosses from one deed to the next through the 2 'buffer zones'. No way do I want to not be able to build anything in the area just outside of my deed.

There are a very large number of people in the same situation. They have developed areas of their perimiters at the expense of a lot of time.

I still see no problem with the current system. I still see no one giving any good reason to change it. There is lots of room for everyone with the current system. I have loads of empty land around my deed and the deeds of my friends.

I still don't understand what the problem is. I see lots of people with some very bad ideas for changing the deed system and a couple of people with ok ideas.

What I don't see is a good reason to change the current deed system. Please explain.

Edited by Sarcaticous

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Either learn to compromise, or convince them to join and give you the writ, or help them relocate. Once they realize that they won't win in the end of the day, you can have your expansion zone back. Should they wish to stay, either ACCOMMODATE them, or help them settle in.

Had they kept perimeter over writ, but changed to allow writ repair in perimeter, then this is what would naturally happen. Instead of forced eviction you have forced invitation. They are free to conform to perimeter rules and live there with what they have without blocking your expansion. Both of you are happy.

Noob then sees the advantage of being in your deeded village after experiencing how useful the guards are at controlling the critters on his perimeter, and how if he was in the village he could eat those kills, as well as rez back at the village when he dies trying to help the guard. He then hands the writ to the mayor and says expand your village I want to join.Fixing it that way eliminates the possible of shack fence griefing on both sides.

The change to have shack block perimeter will increase shack griefing on both sides of the f2p, p2p fence. Want the noob to go away? Encircle their off-deed nearby resource tiles with a fenced enclosure. Want the noobs to never settle near you? Don't need a deed, claim your own virtual perimeter using a fenced enclosure and lock the gates.

It fundamentally changes the "Deed it or Lose it' rule to "Fence it or Keep it", simple because allowing the noob to fence it and keep it means you also allow the land baron to fence it and keep it. You can't have the GMs enforcing a who is the jerk rule because both sides of the fence will be calling the other side the jerk.

Edited by yarnevk

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If they can expand deeded tiles over fences your enclosure won't count.

Now you making a semantic distinction between the free 5 tile buffer perimeter and the paid expansion perimeter which is fine. Would need to recheck but I do not think the resize form allows this because the first step is deed expansion, then perimeter expansion. You would have to retreat the perimeter to the free tiles only, wait for resize cooloff, then expand the deed. Which leaves an opening for the free shack to block deed expansion by moving in closer before you can resize the deed.

But even if it was possible I think the GM would rule the deed expansion invalid because it is being used to break the fence enclosure rule, considering the perimeter rule was just changed to not allow breaking of fence enclosures by forced decay of the shack.

An enclosure of 5 tiles is not going to cause a lot of issues with many people.

OK but why not 10 tiles? That is a simple 3x3 farm with a 1 tile shack. Where do you draw the line of when the squatter crosses it and becomes an invasive jerk? Under 10 OK now that you think about it? I only need 2 tiles to control any wild resource and deny public access. One tile for the fence around the resource, one tile for the shack by it. So you say that is being a land baron and not OK? Then that means the noob that decides to live in a mine because the mine shack was too small is now a jerk? Don't think so? How can the GM tell the difference when mechanically there is no difference between the mechanicism the land baron and the noob use? Do you really want the GM to be jerk judges rather than 'you broke the line' enforcers?

Edited by yarnevk

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The whole issue as I see it is that perimeters serve no purpose anymore. Houses is the most efficient and very cheap way to prevent close neigbors. Before it only prevented the more expensive deed tiles and you needed to place houses very close to block anyone off.

I liked how it were and even wanted walls to be included in the no build in perimeter rule.

Agree with the 'Fence it or Keep' it is now the new rule rather than 'Deed it or Lose it'

But no fence in perimeter as the workaround solution to fix the new rule is a bad idea. You want to build safety walls alongside the public highway to keep the wildlife from broadsiding the traffic before your templar had a chance to get there....

And what if someone wanted to make a public hunting grounds by strategically placing shacks and fence to make sure no neighbors place a claim? Fences make for good neighbors as well as bad neighbors, you don't throw out the baby with the bath water as the saying goes.

Edited by yarnevk

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i think i don't understand whats this all about anymore :o what is the problem now? it should never have been possible to expand over other peoples houses and except for perimeter you couldn't "deed" over them already, so griefing was possible even before this update with little shacks....only difference was, that people could do things against it with putting a perimeter over it, to prevent repairing, which was only possible when created a new deed (which is very expensive btw to just use it as griefing from the deed owners side)

I think it's good that newbies are protected now, because even if "deed it or loose it" was a "clear" rule it was sadly abused in some ways...

and about perimeters, I never liked those 5 tiles buffering if I could change it, I would change it to 2 tiles buffering or 3 tiles, cause 5 is in my opinion not needed.

Anyway, those general perimeters I've never really used, cause I could already fence in those areas I wanted and kept my money that way :o so I didn't really understood the meaning of perimeters....also because as far as i know you had to delete perimeters to use them for deed resizing ?

but NOW perimeters beyond 5 tiles make a sense :o it prevents people from building in an area you may want to expand to :o

btw....wasn't there a rule or a tip for newbies that every settlement should have a specific space between each other? specially when founding a new one? I've nearly never seen that people kept it that way....

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Why do we have perimeter in first place. plan better. build far enuf from your neighbor.

Lots of wasted space due to perim and abuse to force f2p ppl out of their house.

should b able to expand in any 4 direction tho.

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I have yet to see anyone give a good reason to change the system as it is now. I hear about potential griefing but as yet I see no proof of any and it probably won't be any worse than it's ever been.

After some consideration I guess it's probably good that you can't expand or place any part of a settlement over an existing building. Keeps the noobs feeling a little more secure. Doesn't give them a reason to buy a settlement but that's Rolf's problem and it seems he's okay with it.

All this garbage about changing how perimiters work makes no sense at all. It's beginning to look like Trolls. <_<

Edited by Sarcaticous

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Why do we have perimeter in first place. plan better. build far enuf from your neighbor.

Lots of wasted space due to perim and abuse to force f2p ppl out of their house.

should b able to expand in any 4 direction tho.

Why do you care how big a perimiter is? Can't be placed over an existing building. Doesn't affect you in any way. Plenty of free tiles if you want to build a settlement. There is no problem with perimiters except that which exists in your head.

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The odd thing about this change is, at first it seems to be new player friendly by allowing squatters rights. In the end however the people who gain the most are premium players with decent to high masonry who dont want to deed. High QL stone buildings require almost no maintenance and high QL fences in between provide for walling off large areas of land for only a minimal repair time cost.

I dont mind people playing for free or near no cost, we need more people playing to make world seem full. To allow the use of large patchs of land that can be used for game income yet for no real cost does not make good sense to me.

I have a couple small deeds that I am trying to build up to look nice. I have a good relationship with my neighbors and a little expansion room if needed, although not planning to use it. This rules clarification does not affect me other than I think more thought needs to be given to ensure all players (new/old/paying/free) are somewhat balanced so that people can try this game out and and are encouraged to stay and be premium.

Stay with the new rules to protect the free players, but limit the length of connected walls off deed so that huge perimeters are more difficult to accomplish. Perhaps have a standard decay rate for fences off deed, make established players work like new players for free enclosures.

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