Windmills

[Aldaturo 6]

I won't put effort to make something trades lower ql for faster production. The construction difficulty, maybe in addition building repair, can balance the quicker production.

I'm not suggesting something that trades lower ql for faster production, but rather slower production and lower ql (compared to the basic tool) if you - the player - haven't mastered the technique of operating it, but gives you higher yield and ql as you gets better at operating the machine?

The increased complexity of a windmill compared to a grindstone means that it's not as straightforward to use, so more difficult to master, but for those that master it, it is more efficient?

The construction difficulty is a one-off fee, which can be negligible for long term players and excessive for new players (so new players, now at a disadvantage, may lose a source of income)

For building repair to be sufficient for balance, the repair must be very high unless production is only a little bit quicker.

As long as someone is actively involved with operating the machine it will be fine if the output results in slightly more resources produced compared to someone using a hand saw.

If the advantage of the machine over the basic tool is small, how would it compare to a rare/supreme/fantastic tool? or an enchanted tool or a combination?

[Jarosz 189]

make operation based on body stats. Different machines would require different levels of each "body stat" the more of the specific stats you have, the more efficient you can use the machine.

So, not everyone will be good at using every machine. Meaning, it would be better for a village to build these things.

[Torgrim 403]

make operation based on body stats. Different machines would require different levels of each "body stat" the more of the specific stats you have, the more efficient you can use the machine.

So, not everyone will be good at using every machine. Meaning, it would be better for a village to build these things.

Doesn't this make the old and powerful characters even more powerful and makes it harder for noobs to sell bulk items?

[Jarosz 189]

Doesn't this make the old and powerful characters even more powerful and makes it harder for noobs to sell bulk items?

You are assuming a powerful old character wants to spend the time making a million of anything even if its 50% more efficient/faster, time spent not doing boring task A is time spent doing interesting task B. What if said character didn't have the body type skills needed to mass produce the needed product?

I attempted to run a small business in wurm with the purpose of buying up low ql items in mass quantities because in the end, it was time I didn't have to spend mining/woodcutting/creating/combining/failing. I could simply imp/fail. No one really bought on to it. hypothetically my character could have been able to get astronomical skill gain in certain crafting categories because I had passed on the majority of failed tasks to the "market" of workers.

HOWEVER, it didn't last because I couldn't find people online when I was online. It was stated in here that there is a fear of "flooding the market" when there is nothing really resembling a market in Wurm. There is no 1 place I can go to get these "flooded" items you are so afraid of. Markets and Labor in wurm are very hit and miss. If I am a casual gamer, there is 99% chance I will not be able to stay on for 3 hours for person x from y server to deliver xyz amount of goods in "light winds" going the wrong direction.

The majority of suggestions on here are asking Rolf/Devs for a system in order to get items quicker. Either;

1: we can make it faster through enhanced tools/less actions (the whole reason for semi-autonomous/more efficient vs harder to make machines)

2: we have a better localized market with better programmed "merchant/traders/task givers" that actually gave out work orders to people

3: or a centralized market where we can ask for x amount of goods for x amount of silver and we have it delivered in x amount of time, with no risk of players reneging on their promises or the impossible task of meeting up with people on opposite timezones in order to trade off items.

These all answer the same issue. the issue of "i really don't want to spend the time clicking a thousand times in order to make x amount of items, in order to make 1 item" If it was easier/more secure to pay people to make massive amounts of items, we really wouldn't need windmills/sawmills etc. You'll still get the worker who wakes up one day with a hurting wrist who questions why they are playing a game that is designed without ergonomics in mind. and stops playing altogether... but whatever, CTS is what Wurm is all about apparently... If I can have the easier/more secure way of passing on CTS to some guy across the world... then this simulator is one step closer to "reality"

[Aldaturo 6]

You are assuming a powerful old character wants to spend the time making a million of anything even if its 50% more efficient/faster, time spent not doing boring task A is time spent doing interesting task B. What if said character didn't have the body type skills needed to mass produce the needed product?

That may be Torgrim's assumption, and it may well be a valid assumption. But the playerbase is diverse, and each player will have different preferences.

I attempted to run a small business in wurm with the purpose of buying up low ql items in mass quantities because in the end, it was time I didn't have to spend mining/woodcutting/creating/combining/failing. I could simply imp/fail. No one really bought on to it. hypothetically my character could have been able to get astronomical skill gain in certain crafting categories because I had passed on the majority of failed tasks to the "market" of workers.

HOWEVER, it didn't last because I couldn't find people online when I was online. It was stated in here that there is a fear of "flooding the market" when there is nothing really resembling a market in Wurm. There is no 1 place I can go to get these "flooded" items you are so afraid of. Markets and Labor in wurm are very hit and miss. If I am a casual gamer, there is 99% chance I will not be able to stay on for 3 hours for person x from y server to deliver xyz amount of goods in "light winds" going the wrong direction.

The majority of suggestions on here are asking Rolf/Devs for a system in order to get items quicker. Either;

1: we can make it faster through enhanced tools/less actions (the whole reason for semi-autonomous/more efficient vs harder to make machines)

2: we have a better localized market with better programmed "merchant/traders/task givers" that actually gave out work orders to people

3: or a centralized market where we can ask for x amount of goods for x amount of silver and we have it delivered in x amount of time, with no risk of players reneging on their promises or the impossible task of meeting up with people on opposite timezones in order to trade off items.

There are many ways that can cause market failure. Seller/Buyer prices don't meet up and insufficient supply and/or demand are the typical examples. As you say, distance and timezone can be an issue as well. Even if there is sufficient supply and demand across the whole the server cluster, the supply and demand may be insufficient on your server, or in your local area.

Changing production speed may, as a side effect, compensate for a broken market. It will also, as a side effect, cause a different kind inflation - if you don't have to work as hard to achieve something, it makes the achievement worth less. Maybe not for you, but for others, it will. A major part of the appeal of this game for many players is the sense of achievement after toiling away to reach a goal. In discussions on why people leave wurm soon after joining, the I've-built-my-house-now-what factor is often mentioned. That means this kind of "achievement inflation" is toxic for Wurm. That is why increased production throughput is the wrong solution to the market failure.

I agree that the market needs fixing, and Wurm does need improvements to traders/merchants. I also think that a larger playerbase would most likely help the market, e.g. it may mean that there are more players online when you are, near enough to where you live, so that it makes markets more viable at a local scale. There are also ways around the timezone issue - build a 1x1 shack, put a chest and a BSB in it, add seller to the writ and agreed cost to the chest. Arrange with seller to deposit materials and take money. Of course there is a risk of getting conned, so you may not want to do this. And obviously, this would be much more viable if you could add friends remotely.

These all answer the same issue. the issue of "i really don't want to spend the time clicking a thousand times in order to make x amount of items, in order to make 1 item" If it was easier/more secure to pay people to make massive amounts of items, we really wouldn't need windmills/sawmills etc. You'll still get the worker who wakes up one day with a hurting wrist who questions why they are playing a game that is designed without ergonomics in mind. and stops playing altogether... but whatever, CTS is what Wurm is all about apparently... If I can have the easier/more secure way of passing on CTS to some guy across the world... then this simulator is one step closer to "reality"

Is it the time or the clicks that is the issue? or both? Because I see them as different issues with different possible solutions. Maybe what we need to do, is to clarify the distinct issues brought up and create separate threads to find good solutions to the specific issues, rather than having the same discussion multiple threads (e.g. windmills/sawmills threads). For instance:

• Improve the UI to make it require less clicks.
  
• Adjust the production throughput (higher yield or faster timers)
  

[KunAlt 844]

I like the windmills decorative part but...

We allready have a full automatic metod for creatin of planks, bricks, mortar, etc. You trow some coins over some ¨working to be prem¨ free char, and can get allmost any amount of bulks mats as you can pay.

-1

Salu2.

[joedobo 1,187]

I'm not suggesting something that trades lower ql for faster production, but rather slower production and lower ql (compared to the basic tool) if you - the player - haven't mastered the technique of operating it, but gives you higher yield and ql as you gets better at operating the machine?

The increased complexity of a windmill compared to a grindstone means that it's not as straightforward to use, so more difficult to master, but for those that master it, it is more efficient?

The construction difficulty is a one-off fee, which can be negligible for long term players and excessive for new players (so new players, now at a disadvantage, may lose a source of income)

For building repair to be sufficient for balance, the repair must be very high unless production is only a little bit quicker.

If the advantage of the machine over the basic tool is small, how would it compare to a rare/supreme/fantastic tool? or an enchanted tool or a combination?

1. "gives you higher yield and ql as you gets better at operating the machine" As long as spending time using the machine is at least equal to using a hand tool it will be ok. I'd perfer a system where use efficiency is more about user keyboard-n-mouse skill then a toon's skill gained buy using the machine for hundreds of hours.

2. one-off or not, its still time that is spread out over the machine's life. Sure the more you use it the more this cost gets spread out, but it still exists none the less. Fixed costs like this are important and you always need to look at them in light of the machine's expect life.

3. If the goal is to maintain the same time spent converting resources then faster production can be offset with greater repair and maintenance. If that maintenance is significantly greater then other things, that still doesn't change that the goal was to keep things in balance.

More on 2&3, I'm not saying I want faster production or require that existent time spent to resources processed ratios stay constant. I don't think it will matter either way because the true limitation is transporting and trade.

The majority of suggestions on here are asking Rolf/Devs for a system in order to get items quicker. Either;

1: we can make it faster through enhanced tools/less actions (the whole reason for semi-autonomous/more efficient vs harder to make machines)

2: we have a better localized market with better programmed "merchant/traders/task givers" that actually gave out work orders to people

3: or a centralized market where we can ask for x amount of goods for x amount of silver and we have it delivered in x amount of time, with no risk of players reneging on their promises or the impossible task of meeting up with people on opposite timezones in order to trade off items.

Huge +1. Finally someone else gets it.

I think the bigger issue is all the click-n-mouse movement required to make one measly plank. Wurm is so afraid of macro that the devs place cumbersome click-n-mouse requirements on the players. This has been beaten to death, but a macro can find a pixel pattern no matter how random its placements is.

[Aldaturo 6]

1. "gives you higher yield and ql as you gets better at operating the machine" As long as spending time using the machine is at least equal to using a hand tool it will be ok. I'd perfer a system where use efficiency is more about user keyboard-n-mouse skill then a toon's skill gained buy using the machine for hundreds of hours.

When I say "as you get better" I mean the player (or user as you call him/her) as opposed to the character (toon). I'm indifferent to "more stuff for the same timer" or "same amount of stuff on a shorter timer" - I think what matters is overall throughput (how much flour can you make in 30m, for instance). My main thing is that the cost of increased throughput should be increased user interaction. And yes, I would like to see player (or user) skill affect efficiency, although not just how fast you can mash your keyboard or select menu items. Hence my suggestion for a micro-game that simulates operating the windmill.

2. one-off or not, its still time that is spread out over the machine's life. Sure the more you use it the more this cost gets spread out, but it still exists none the less. Fixed costs like this are important and you always need to look at them in light of the machine's expect life.

3. If the goal is to maintain the same time spent converting resources then faster production can be offset with greater repair and maintenance. If that maintenance is significantly greater then other things, that still doesn't change that the goal was to keep things in balance.

More on 2&3, I'm not saying I want faster production or require that existent time spent to resources processed ratios stay constant. I don't think it will matter either way because the true limitation is transporting and trade.

True, fixed costs does matter. My point was that if it is expensive to build, few if any beginners will build them, but established players will. If it offers improved throughput, windmills would be biased towards established players. If the price of increased throughput is increased maintenance costs, then the building is available to more players. That's a game balance detail that need to be taken into consideration.

Keeping things in balance is more than ensuring overall throughput doesn't change. Keeping balance means to make sure that if there is a market, don't give strong incentives for sellers to withdraw. Keeping balance means that if I've sacrificed time/clicks/wrists on a project, I shouldn't be able to accomplish the same in significantly less cost after X is introduced. Keeping balance means that the relative difficulty for beginners and veterans needs to stay the same.

My reaction to this thread was: Windmills? Why not? It's in-character for Wurm? I like that. OP's suggested functionality like grindstone, but with a 0.1-1s timer boost depending on wind: What? Windmills needs to perform much better than grindstones. We're talking a big leap in technology here.

So my view is this: Windmills are in-character for Wurm. They are a step change in tech from a grind stone - that ought to be reflected in Wurm. So windmills should give step improvement over grind stone. Although a windmill might have been a game-changer in real life, we don't want a game-changer in Wurm, so this improvement can't come for free.

My question then is how can we combine step improvement without turning it into a game-changer?

The current cost of production is time and clicks. Many do something else whilst the timer runs, and seem happy to do so. I would argue that that makes time less cost and more necessary evil. The idea behind the operate-the-machine approach is to give improvement at the cost of increased interaction. Timer can stay the same, but require you to interact with the game throughout. In addition, if the interaction is responding to RNG, macro is harder than it currently is. It's easier to write a macro to navigate a menu using pixel text recognition than it is to write a macro issuing the correct response to random events - first you need to find out what the correct response is. Less risk of macroing should mean it's more likely we can get keybinds :-)

[Jarosz 189]

how about this:

any item that is made in a "machine" type building, comes out with "factory defects" where a very short action is required to "finish" each item.

IE

a plank made in a saw mill would require sanding/polishing

grain made from a mill would need sifting

arrowheads made from a mold would need sharpening

It doesn't help the amount of clicks any... but the finishing of an item would be where you got your skill when using the machine. and using the machine would help your "body stats/mind skills"

[Protunia 735]

+1 Yes this would neat, but just for looks and minor functions like maybe moving water.