Wurm Player Retention

[SirRick 22]

So what I've gathered so far is that people would like more exciting and dangerous events to be held on the Freedom Isles.

You guys have been debating whether or not events that threaten the welfare of deeds should be implemented, and you're talking about the different possibilities that players could face if said suggestions were implemented.

In my personal opinion, I don't think creating events where deeds are raided would be beneficial to wurm. I do however feel that having more GM-run events within Wurm Online would be extremely beneficial in keeping players interested in Wurm.

In my history of playing MMO's, I've noticed that the MMO's where the GM's reached out and interacted with the community by hosting events were generally more enjoyable than those where you just do your own thing all the time.

[Busted 289]

I am not sure what hermits have to do with the topic at hand, other than you make clear you disapprove of such. I'm a hermit but I don't think someone who has a village with three or four villagers is really in any different position here. The majority of time, there is going to be no one on any particular deed. The majority of time, these raids would have no interaction with the players. Either you are a helpless victim to something you never had any chance to react to, or you are a live participant to an event that -- for good or for bad -- causes a sense of urgency and reaction. Whether there is only one of you, or an alliance with 50 people, you are actually interacting somehow. Which as far as I can tell is the only point to having such a "feature". There is no adrenaline to coming back and finding someone trashed your place while you were gone, and you have perhaps lost things not possible to replace. It really doesn't matter if 10 people live there, or just one. There is no fear, no excitement, no sense of something happening. At this stage we might as well allow also people to lockpick your stuff and bash your fences while you are gone, and have everything be PvP again, and bring back also the mine tunneling mobs as well. Passive Helpless Victim does not equal Excitement. This is why I think such raids -- if we have them at all -- should not be on unattended deeds. No one is running around in a panic saying whatdoido, whatdoido ...

It's not something you will still remember three years later and tell stories about, if it is just some unseen thing that trashed your stuff while you were on vacation.

Like I said, it needs fleshing out so it's not quite a bleak as you've described. Off the top of my head, you could receive warning that at some point on whatever day of the week between this time and that time, your village could come under siege by blah blah or whatever. This gives you time to prepare, muster the troops, reinforce defences. It doesn't have to be completely random or completely brutal and Im not suggesting you get bent over a barrel every time you log off for a day or two - just that the potential exists for it to happen if you're careless.

Oh, and it's not Hermit players that I disapprove of, it's the mentality by a lot of hermits that because they live by themselves things like bashing creatures and the need to gather olives to fuel their lamps somehow makes life too hard for them. Take away bashing creatures and resource gathering to fuel lamps and it makes life too easy for communities. That's my issue. That's why things in general should be balanced for both loners and communities.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Busted

[joedobo 1,187]

Currently the only method for those who like to be challenged with combat is to randomly wander around in the woods.Things like Event-Moderator hosted events or Dev funded deeds populated with mobs would give players more combat choices. It would be very challenging to raid a deed filled with multistory buildings and greenish trolls.

Edited August 30, 2012 by joedobo

[Busted 289]

Again, the issue is it's staged, not an organic development. Bored people want to be surprised and challenged, not led down the garden path to a themepark attraction.

[joedobo 1,187]

Sure, it's my opinion, but it's also a sensible conclusion to draw. Rolf wants to make money to pay his bills, go on holiday etc. More interesting content = more players = more money. Nobody invests this amount of time and effort into a hobby unless they have a day job to pay the bills.

The important opinion point is that it would be financially beneficial for the game. It may not be a good as you think to alienate the peaceful creative/crafting groups.

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

I am not an action--adventure person. Truthfully, I am a hobbit. I mostly tend my vegetables and milk my cows. But sometimes, like Bilbo, I get dragged into an adventure that I did not anticipate. Things get hairy and exciting, and lifelong memories get made. Because in some way you are a participant, you have an emotional reaction, you have a series of options on oh-my-god-what-to-do. The moments in MMOs that have etched themselves into my memory, are things like trying to desperately sneak a baby character through Highhold Pass past the orc guards. Or running to the north coast in Asherons Call and trying to dodge lugians who are throwing rocks at my head the entire time. Or in Vanguard, needing to see a crafting master on the opposite side of the continent and needing to travel across a hostile landscape with things way over my level, including passing through a racial area where I was KOS to the NPCs.

None of my "best" memories involve random things that happened when I was not there as a participant. To me, that's about as exciting and "fun" as having a computer hard drive meltdown corrupt my character data and logging back in at some stage to find I am a victim of something that has nothing but bad, bad feelings from me. If you want to tinge the game with a bit more "edginess," it needs to be something players react to and have active feelings as they happen, where you are there as a part of the story, those things become something you tell other people about long afterwards. Not just some random bad luck that occurred the week when you were out sick with the flu.

I am not gungho myself on GM run events. I am not opposed to them but I think there are other and better ways to add an "edginess" to things. I would also prefer that players have at least SOME option to seek out adventure, gambling on a risk to get something they want in return. For instance I think traveling cross country should ALWAYS have a bit of edgy adventure to it.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Brash_Endeavors

[Hussars 511]

My only issue with this line of reasoning, is the same I have with the PVP vs PVE arguments. Catering to one side or the other, at the cost of the other, is self defeating.

Risk vs reward for both the game, and the players... from a business side of things, there are a lot of undefined variables in these types of changes, making the risks much larger than the rewards currently.

Rolf and the team can only make their business decisions based on the customers who provide feedback. Currently (according to this thread at least) the customers providing feedback seem to [be] more opposed than in support of this type of change.

As a compromise between the two extremes, how about providing an OPTION for deed owners to allow their deeds to be part of the these "dynamic" events?

Have a GM/team you contact or have a selection available under the deed token management, to have your deed flagged for "invasion" scenarios. This doesn't mean you will be invaded every other day, however you could be invaded at some point. The more of the local deeds flagged to be involved in a "local" area, the bigger the event when it occurs.

This allows those who want to see this type of content to get it, and those who want nothing to do with it to continue on with their day.

Forcing gameplay style changes only serves to reduce the number of long term players (who spend a lot of silver in-game thus give money to the game), with only a promise of increased new players and higher new player retention.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Hussars

[Busted 289]

Make things interesting for new players and they play the game longer and invest more into it. It's simple. The status quo doesn't exactly have us over burdened with new premiums, now does it? How does catering exclusively to the old player base that a significant portion of pays for their premium time with endlessly recycled silver make financial sense?

Honestly, I think Wurm would be better off if Rolf would just lease servers out to large communities rather try to get two different mentalities to work together in the same realm.

[Hussars 511]

Make things interesting for new players and they play the game longer and invest more into it...

Using your suggestion as a basis for change though [with it not being an option but forced], would this make it more interesting for new players, or for more established long term players who are bored? You're proposing a world change that potentially makes the world a lot more difficult for truly new players to survive in. Sure some will rise the to the challenge, but what happens when they get bored with the combat?

If you think they won't, look at the slew of threads discussing changes to the combat system specifically because current fighters are bored from a lack of challenge (as well as the "interesting" nature of the combat system).

Ultimately though, while it may not seem like it to some, it does appear to be a change in the focus of Wurm for others. Is it worth the cost of the loss of more of the existing client base? Or can there be a middle ground both "camps" can agree on?

::edited to clarify intent:::

Edited August 30, 2012 by Hussars

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

Make things interesting for new players and they play the game longer and invest more into it. It's simple. The status quo doesn't exactly have us over burdened with new premiums, now does it? How does catering exclusively to the old player base that a significant portion of pays for their premium time with endlessly recycled silver make financial sense?

Honestly, I think Wurm would be better off if Rolf would just lease servers out to large communities rather try to get two different mentalities to work together in the same realm.

Now you are the one being bleak I don;t think it is that impossible The first half of this thread, I was "heck YEA!" to every single post you made lol.

I just think people form much stronger emotional reactions and memories to events they actively participate in, not random bad-luck things that they find out about three days later. I am not sure you are actually in disagreement with that. I don't think it is impossible to make both sides happy. Maybe not all people, but all playstyles perhaps.

Personally I would like to see more reasons to travel, and more ... unexpected adventure ... coming from that travel.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Brash_Endeavors

[Anders 30]

I haven't read the full thread, but I think the biggest thing is goals.

If an individual can set a goal for oneself, then it encourages that individual to play. The kind of goal should be determined with the type of player, but big goals and small goals can help a lot. A big goal sets a broader scope. A smaller goal helps to make you constantly feel like your achieving something each time you satisfy that goal.

I personally play with a goal in mind almost every day. I have a large project that will likely take me a year or so to do on Independence. If I did not set small goals each day I can assure you I would not be here writing this message. Maybe I want to dig a terrace on a hill. Maybe I want to build 3 walls of a house. Simple tasks like that keep me going.

[joedobo 1,187]

I feel this game does need more combat PvE challenge, defiantly. Its just I disagree that threatening deeds is the best way to fill that void, or help Wurm for that matter. I'm not talking about new or longtime players either. Its play styles we need to consider. Those who like peaceful crafting and building atmospheres are not going to appreciate it if all the sudden troll invasions start harassing them on a constant bases.

Edited August 30, 2012 by joedobo

[Anders 30]

I feel this game does need more combat PvE challenge, defiantly. Its just I disagree that threatening deeds is the best way to fill that void, or help Wurm for that matter. I'm not talking about new or longtime players either. Its play styles we need to consider. Those who like peaceful crafting and building atmospheres are not going to appreciate it if all the sudden troll invasions start harassing them on a constant bases.

Agreed.

I know a lot of players who play this game as a downtime from other games. They like the casual atmosphere. They spend money just like the hardcore pvpers. There are also far more players on the freedom servers than Chaos and Epic combined. To suddenly incorporate pvp into their lives may please some, but it's a huge risk for the popularity of the game as well as financially for the game. If we go too far in any one direction, the game could potentially be cutting off half it's income. The game is still a business, and any good business policy involves making money and catering to your audience.

Keeping people around means more popularity for the game and more money for the developers to keep the game running. It's as simple as that.

[Busted 289]

Using your suggestion as a basis for change though [with it not being an option but forced], would this make it more interesting for new players, or for more established long term players who are bored? You're proposing a world change that potentially makes the world a lot more difficult for truly new players to survive in. Sure some will rise the to the challenge, but what happens when they get bored with the combat?

If you think they won't, look at the slew of threads discussing changes to the combat system specifically because current fighters are bored from a lack of challenge (as well as the "interesting" nature of the combat system).

Ultimately though, while it may not seem like it to some, it does appear to be a change in the focus of Wurm for others. Is it worth the cost of the loss of more of the existing client base? Or can there be a middle ground both "camps" can agree on?

::edited to clarify intent:::

No single change by itself would turn the game from dull (once you hit that point) to awesome in one fell swoop but it would breathe some fresh air into the game, win some folks back, attract some new ones and keep the people that are fading from flipping a coin every other day for a time. If it's built on, a change like I've suggested could act as a catalyst to help drag Wurm out of the mire it's been stuck in for oh so long. What I've been talking about one is one little thing that could fundamentally alter the way players interact with the game but it doesn't really touch the core elements of the game. It just makes you consider the impact the environment has on your day to day dealings with the game a little more instead of basically being able to ignore it completely.

I don't think a change that gets people out of rut - whether they like it or not or are even aware they are in it - is a bad thing.

New people coming into the game won't know any different. As far as they are concerned it's always been that way and won't question it. It's just how the world is. People looking for more excitement but don't want to subject themselves to PVP are likely to embrace it as well - because it's different from the routine. The hard core crafters, hermits (I bring this us because it is the hermits who would be most effected by a change and obviously resent it for the additional work it could theoretically lump them with) and those who play the game like a spreadsheet are the ones who are least likely to want this interruption in their daily Wurm lives.

How long would it keep people for? Who knows, longer than not doing it would for sure. Wurm still has a lot of other things needing to be added to it to keep people happy long term and many of those things have been suggested elsewhere in this thread.

End of the day, it all basically comes down to what do we as the Wurm community want. Do we want bigger populations who are drawn here because the game is exciting or do we want to maintain the status quo and periodically feed off the bones of the hapless noobs who wander around for a week before logging off and never returning BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING EXCITING FOR THEM TO DO?

Giving the environment some fangs and promoting this fact would attract more people than just pvp or crafting alone. And once in, the player has the option to explore every facet of the game. Keep things as they are and nothing .. changes.

Is it worth the potential loss of a portion of the userbase who are afraid of or unwilling to adapt? Honestly, I'd say yes, although I think you'd find the majority would just grumble and get on with it rather than actually quit. At the very least I'd expect them to keep an open mind with regards to what opportunities this new world offered.

Or, you know, roll it out on a brand new server and see what happens. Nervous folks like to watch.

[Hussars 511]

Agreed.

I know a lot of players who play this game as a downtime from other games. They like the casual atmosphere. They spend money just like the hardcore pvpers. There are also far more players on the freedom servers than Chaos and Epic combined. To suddenly incorporate pvp into their lives may please some, but it's a huge risk for the popularity of the game as well as financially for the game. If we go too far in any one direction, the game could potentially be cutting off half it's income. The game is still a business, and any good business policy involves making money and catering to your audience.

Keeping people around means more popularity for the game and more money for the developers to keep the game running. It's as simple as that.

I'm not sure where the PVP vs PVE content was interjected (besides me using it as an example of the types of arguments to avoid), but the idea was for increased PVE risk in the form of deed invasions from NPC aggros. Please do not bring in PVP vs PVE gameplay (and I apologize for using it as an example earlier) as this will just devolve.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Hussars

[VentureCo 94]

From my observation, more/better enviromental challenges would greatly increase wurms longevity.

Enviromental challenges can mean alot of things; My personal favorite would be random, dynamic events (allthough i never played it myself, the "rifts" from rift come to mind). Something which doesn't destroy structures on deed and doesn't stay forever or untill killed. So you can opt out if you don't feel like participating in actual combat, the threat would still remain outside for a while though. Basically with the visible spawnpoints ("goblin hut" etc.) and the "champion" monsters this idea is sort of there, but it should be way more fleshed out.

Also i just though about the, uh,, "sprout challenge"- It took me awhile and it was a great adventure to get an oak sprout, It was something that improved my deed, something to "show off" (nice oak, man), and i had to travel across half the map to get it. Kept me busy and provided a great reward. That is something that should be used more, getting "rare" items to show off on your deed. As an example, gm-spawned unique trees on tiles that can't be deeded. Generally "flavor" items that spawn at a fixed place so you have to travel there if you want to show it off on your deed.

[Hussars 511]

I don't think a change that gets people out of rut - whether they like it or not or are even aware they are in it - is a bad thing.

If you had not said this, I would be more directly supportive with your idea. This reads to me as you imply you know better than another player what they want/need, and also implies this is more to address something you want for yourself, no matter how it is spun as a potential gain for the community.

That said, I agree, I think there needs to be a change somewhere, I just don't agree that dictating playstyle changes for those who don't want them is the route to go. Make it an option, if people decide that "Look, that looks fun over there", they'll use the option, if they don't, they won't. If enough of the player base migrates to/uses the system, then flip the switch on the server.

As to new players, most will read at least part of the forums (or be in-game near someone or reading GL chat, or whatever) and be told how it used to be. The problem with the internet, nothing posted ever really goes away, look at "Lampgateâ„¢", and the requested feature vs bug discussions. Most of the current players were likely not even here when the original change was made a couple of years ago.. yet how many can quote the information about it being an added feature?

Do we want bigger populations who are drawn here because the game is exciting or do we want to maintain the status quo and periodically feed off the bones of the hapless noobs who wander around for a week before logging off and never returning BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING EXCITING FOR THEM TO DO?

Again, perspective/personal preference.. what is exciting to one is not the same as for another... and this is where a compromise needs to occur.. making it optional is one compromise, I'm sure there are others.. but I'm finally home from work and going to go play lol

Edited August 30, 2012 by Hussars

[Busted 289]

Now you are the one being bleak I don;t think it is that impossible The first half of this thread, I was "heck YEA!" to every single post you made lol.

I just think people form much stronger emotional reactions and memories to events they actively participate in, not random bad-luck things that they find out about three days later. I am not sure you are actually in disagreement with that. I don't think it is impossible to make both sides happy. Maybe not all people, but all playstyles perhaps.

Personally I would like to see more reasons to travel, and more ... unexpected adventure ... coming from that travel.

Trying not to be bleak. I love Wurm for what it is but I'm in love with what Wurm could be and it frustrates me that it's being held back by fear of change. Wurm's meant to be pvp, you know? And it still is. Just it's market pvp moreso than actual bashing of deeds, lopping off of heads etc. I get that a lot of people don't like PVP. I really do. They keep telling us that Freedom is a PVE server, but there is no real PVE here either. It's all too tame, too easy, too avoidable through game mechanics. A PVE server shouldn't be that way. It should still challenge you, even if it's not going to be as vindictive as another human player, it should still have to opportunity to bend you over once in a while if you're careless.

I can think of endless scenarios where an upgrade to the hostility and capabilities of NPC mobs could generate some really impressive and memorable dynamic gamepay. Imagine logging in and discovering a new player deed not far from you is about to be attacked by a swarm of angry spiders for encroaching on it's lair. What would you do? Keep your head down and hope it all passes you by or rally support and make a stand against this incursion? Gather materials to hastily build defences while putting the call out for allies to lend their bows and swords and axes? Maybe launch a preemptive strike against the gathering mass of spiders and whittle down their numbers a bit to give the defenders a better chance or weathering the attack? Seek out the lair queen and put her down, scattering the remaining spiders?

How is this not exciting?

Ok, NPC's are a little too basic for this as it stands but theres potential there for things like this to happen. Wurms PVE doesn't have to be about accidently wandering through a forest and waking up a lurking spider or actively hunting a crocodile, there's so much more that could be done with it if there's the desire for it's development.

The environment should be a companion to the payer, whether it's good to you or bad. Right now it's just ... bland and forgettable. make it more exciting and people will want to play more in this sandbox.

[Hussars 511]

The environment should be a companion to the player, whether it's good to you or bad...

I agree 100% with this statement.

[Busted 289]

If you had not said this, I would be more directly supportive with your idea. This reads to me as you imply you know better than another player what they want/need, and also implies this is more to address something you want for yourself, no matter how it is spun as a potential gain for the community.

I'm not suggesting I know better, I just know what frustrates me with the game and what would alleviate that frustration. I also know that there are a lot more people like me who would try out or stick with Wurm if there was more challenge for them, whether they were PVE or PVP focussed. I'm still here because I have my own goals, not because I enjoy chasing spiders. Not everyone has the patience to set themselves goals like a lot of us here and they are the ones we could be keeping if they had more of an incentive to stay.

Anyway good discussion folks, I hope something positive comes of all this eventually.

[Reylaark 1,100]

Personally, I can understand where Busted is coming from about so-called "hermits" not wanting to be imposed upon at all even if it means appealing to a wider audience.

On the other hand, there is a reason I chose to play on Freedom.

Some days, I'm a hermit. Chats are pretty much off except for emergencies. I quietly enjoy the sound of my rake organizing my crops as they breathe in new life and stretch for the sky. I examine my horses to stay acquainted with who's who and what their strengths and weaknesses are. I find high ground and stare at my homestead pondering what I want to do next, or simply basking in a recently accomplished new feature I've added. I created what I see before me, I'm going to create more. What have I at my fingertips to attempt the unique, something I always enjoying thinking about.

Other days, I'm glad Wurm is indeed an MMO and I can be social. Try to join a conversation in kchat. Send out a few tells to keep up with friends. Hop on a boat and wave at random people I can see on shore. Hop on a horse and go explore. I stop by and have a look at deeds of old. I wonder what route I should take to wind my way through lava spiders burning at the ready and trolls looking to gain their street creds. I look for an animal I may be able to battle with odds in my favor and height to my advantage.

The point is, I don't necessarily know which kind of day it's going to be ahead of time. It just depends, and it spontaneously takes form as I settle in and hear the water lap against shore, then maybe crickets or a fire in the distance while the game calms itself from the initial madness of loading and placing all objects.

I love having this freedom to play the game at my own pace. I love that the option is my own. I can depend on it.

That would be completely removed should we seek to add (read impose) all kinds of chaos on freedom. One of the beauties of Wurm, in my opinion, is that it does offer different types of servers for different types of tastes and preferences. There is a reason I chose to live on Freedom. It doesn't make me a lesser computer game player. It doesn't speak to the breadth of my experience and understanding of computer games any more than anyone else's own personal preferences speak to their experience or understanding. Merely different tastes.

Aside from that,

Creating more animations and continuing to polish the graphics, as has been happening quite nicely, will greatly help improve attraction. Having greater chances to diversify through player models and armors, clothing, etc. will allow players to form deeper bonds with the alter egos they create, thereby improving retention rates.

I'd agree that the tutorial needs help. I don't know to what extent a voice overlay rather than long texts might be feasible. The tutorial does feel old school. Nothing wrong with old school, but I would imagine the market for old school is much smaller than new school. Perhaps having a thread dedicated to tutorial ideas would be a good. Perhaps a competition asking members/teams from within the community to put forth tutorial designs that would describe their own server cluster. These tutorials should not only be instructive, but should showcase what it is they love about the game they play. One winning team from each server cluster, with player-votes counting as a vote at the developer's table, will win cookies, or something as worthy of creating envy in others.

[joedobo 1,187]

I can think of endless scenarios where an upgrade to the hostility and capabilities of NPC mobs could generate some really impressive and memorable dynamic gamepay. Imagine logging in and discovering a new player deed not far from you is about to be attacked by a swarm of angry spiders for encroaching on it's lair. What would you do? Keep your head down and hope it all passes you by or rally support and make a stand against this incursion? Gather materials to hastily build defences while putting the call out for allies to lend their bows and swords and axes? Maybe launch a preemptive strike against the gathering mass of spiders and whittle down their numbers a bit to give the defenders a better chance or weathering the attack? Seek out the lair queen and put her down, scattering the remaining spiders?

How is this not exciting?

Not everyone plays this game for combative pleasure. That whole cenerio assumes that all players should have fight stuff all the time. I don't want to bring PvP into this but it very much looks like you want PvE folks to partake in PvP-like activities accept against NPC AI. I certanly hope you can at the very least be open minded enough to recrognize that peace loving crafting/building types wouldn't like what you proposing. If you think that that target group is insignificant and not important to Wurm future, then by all means let the raiding mob commence.

[Vroomfondel 1,128]

I've been watching htis thread and staying out of it so far, but can't stay quiet anymore. The servers are fine with the setup they have now. You get bored on a PvE server? GO TO EPIC. The PvE servers are more market driven than combat driven. Many just don't want to take the time necessary to get enough skill to play in the markets. Players just need to be willing to move and set up again if they go PvP, which is what the real problem is. Players not willing to start over to do something else, they want it where they first set up.

[SirRick 22]

I love Wurm for what it is but I'm in love with what Wurm could be and it frustrates me that it's being held back by fear of change.

Thank you. I think you speak for many of us.

[Victor 27]

While the idea of having monsters attack deeds/villages for whatever reason or another would be exciting (maybe you hunted too many goblins, and they have it out for you now), the destruction of anything on their deed isn't an option, or they'd pvp. It simply takes too long to do anything in Wurm to have something break your walls down and ruin any part of it.