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SirRick

Wurm Player Retention

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Rolf needs to think about the needs and wants of his future player base, not the old.

Solution exists that can make both all parties happy. I disagree with you that only old players don't want their deed threatened. All that's going to do is scare off players. How many games have mobs that raid player housing? Way back in history UO's housing had an issue where mobs where spawning near popular house spots, people complained, and the UO devs moved the mob spawn to areas where houses arn't as dense. Raiding deeds is a bad idea and their is plenty of historical proof to support that. Besides you don't need to threaten deeds to make things interesting.

What kind of solution could we peruse that would make both parties happy?

1. Random mob villages that pop up( like lairs) and player can try to raid them. To make this even more fun, let other players control the mobs (aka Lotro monsterplay)!

2. A few months ago Rolf mentioned something about multilevel dungeon. It would be fun to for players to raid such npc packed things.

3. How about official competition from the Wurm event mod and they give out some of the trader money as rewards. Use combat rating as tool to matching up equivalently skilled character-- make duels, or maybe gladiator fighting against hard mobs.

4. I think we need more very difficult roads structure's that give awesome movement bonus. These roads would be so hard to make that it would take lots of community contribution.

5. Remember this is a fantasy game with magic. How about a if the players can build a portal at the starter deed that links with other starter deed portals. Its would take a lot of work to both build and maintain it.

6. With multistory coming along, and I hope bridges that can attaching buildings together, it would be cool to make village run by the an event mod. The mod would spawn stuff and people would run around killing things.

A deed is our safe haven. In WOW can you raid other players banks? In EVE can you go to HIGH sec space, and raid all the player's vaults in NPC stations? In all of UO's history their have been times where mobs raided a town but players always had the option to ignore it. Even know this raiding was optional, players still had lots of fun during the event.

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I was one of the people that he's talking about. Having things to do in the game isn't an issue nor the reason people get bored. They get bored from the fact that everything becomes.. watching a progress bar for hours apon hours. I bet, if you put damn animations in the game that even then more people would stick around.

The game doesn't recieve updates in the way that it shows progression or improvment. Little tinkering updates that change the way the grass grows isn't going to keep players. I mean for god sakes look at the way the models look riding the horses.. We are like standing straight up through the horse. Look how they steer. Just tons of things this game lacks that could be done and fixed in a years time if someone *cough* would actually hire some real people to do it. But no, they rather be greedy asses and not actually progress the games develpoment to being playable in a finished state. Admit it.. the game looks like and sometimes plays like it's in Alpha.

Let me say this, I know graphics aren't everything, and I LOVE the gameplay of Wurm I truly do.. but that just isn't enough.

The game needs Better housing options, not the same square crap

Animations

Visable Armor

Lower the damn time it takes to do things.. Shouldnt have to spend my entire REAL LIFE DAY just to do a few things in a game.. Should be the other way around Spend a couple hours to do more in game.

A game isn't really fun if more than half the time your just AFK mining (progress bar watching) while your watching Netflix. I mean wtf wants to sit there for 10 hours a day and look at a black wall and listen to a clock noise everytime you character makes a sound and no animation of hitting the wall. fun fun.

What would you rather do.. look at something that looks attractive to the eye all day or something ugly. Like it or not, people play the newer games because of looks and gameplay.. if you dont have those 2 things you wont get much of a playerbase.

People don't quit because it's too hard.. they quit because its not a game, it feels more like a chore, and chores are boring.

Edited by Herguy
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I'm sure there are plenty of newer players who don't want their deeds raided either but most of the objections to any kind of added risk to freedom does come from the older player base and to an extent I can appreciate their concerns about it. However, pandering to the older, established player base isn't going to make it any easier to attract and retain new players - and that's where the money is. Rolf is trapped in a situation where his game is both kept afloat and made stagnant by the same vocal old guard players that resist change.

From a commercial standpoint, it makes more sense for Rolf to look at his potential player base and what will attract and retain them instead of what keeps the old players who don't want things to change too much happy.

Make a game appealing enough for new players to invest in and stick with and you don't need to continually make concessions to those who resist change. Sure, you may alienate and drive them off in the process, but better that then have the game held back because some people may get may not like things getting shaken up to a point where they have to adjust and adapt.

A deed is a safe haven? Mostly yes. But it should never be 100% safe. Without risk there's no sense of achievement and new players want to feel like the time they invest in a game is worth while. Sometimes that should mean your stuff is put at risk. Sometimes that means you have to fight to protect what's yours. Victory is always sweeter when it's hard fought. Defeat gives you a reason to pick yourself up and fight back.

Bottom line (again, my opinion) Wurm needs more danger, everywhere. It needs more challenges thrown at the player, village, community at large. It doesn't need more player created distraction (although that's awesome too) it needs more environmental ones. Right now, Freedom isn't really PVE. The environment is largely inert and unable to challenge a player. It's too boring to keep all but the most stubborn players, and we've already met them. We are them.

I'm not suggesting peoples homes should be raided by players on Freedom and all their gear stolen, but the environment should be able to kick us in the ass and force us to work to keep it at bay from time to time. Maybe a village constantly under threat of mob attack has penalties to it's productivity or increased upkeep cost or something as well as having to manually repair damaged buildings and walls when the dangerous npc population reaches a certain threshold and needs culling? Maybe make these random, server wide events that encourage players to band together to help drive off rampaging Trolls in a certain area? Think of it like a weekly Dragon slaying or something, but without any huge rewards.

I dunno, it's just needs more exciting stuff going on for the new/newer players to get excited about. Older players may not want the potential added hassle, but the game needs it desperately.

Wurm isn't ever going to be successful if it's development is being hindered by it's own player base. For the sake of the game we have to stop resisting change and encourage developments that will attract new players. We just have to make sure along the way it doesn't get dumbed down.

Incidently, I'm not strictly having a pop at old players who want to protect their time investments, I'm more annoyed with the general consensus that changes that make things a bit harder/realistic or more dangerous are bad and I am especially irked at how those who shout the loudest are usually the only ones Rolf ever hears.

Maybe I should drop a gold into the wishing well and ask for my own private audience ...

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I have to agree that the feeling of "doing chores" is one of the things that drags down Wurm for me and, from what was said by them, has driven others out of the game.

As for spicing things up, I'd personally like to see more aesthetic options. I'd like more things to decorate with. Make my deed more interesting. Things are too cookie cutter right now.

Also, something we were talking about today in our alliance chat: One of the things that Minecraft has over Wurm is the excitement of never knowing if you're going to be attacked. I think it would make the night more terrifying and the game more interesting if there were creatures crawling around at night trying to eat us. Weak creatures like goblins would work. It would certainly lead to more defensible deed designs and more employment for the Guild of Templars.

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Retention is all well and good; however, theres the other side of the coin. There have been players who found themselves becoming addicted, and thus having to quit. Malvada as one example I know personally.

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I'm sure there are plenty of newer players who don't want their deeds raided either but most of the objections to any kind of added risk to freedom does come from the older player base and to an extent I can appreciate their concerns about it. However, pandering to the older, established player base isn't going to make it any easier to attract and retain new players - and that's where the money is. Rolf is trapped in a situation where his game is both kept afloat and made stagnant by the same vocal old guard players that resist change.

From a commercial standpoint, it makes more sense for Rolf to look at his potential player base and what will attract and retain them instead of what keeps the old players who don't want things to change too much happy.

Make a game appealing enough for new players to invest in and stick with and you don't need to continually make concessions to those who resist change. Sure, you may alienate and drive them off in the process, but better that then have the game held back because some people may get may not like things getting shaken up to a point where they have to adjust and adapt.

A deed is a safe haven? Mostly yes. But it should never be 100% safe. Without risk there's no sense of achievement and new players want to feel like the time they invest in a game is worth while. Sometimes that should mean your stuff is put at risk. Sometimes that means you have to fight to protect what's yours. Victory is always sweeter when it's hard fought. Defeat gives you a reason to pick yourself up and fight back.

Bottom line (again, my opinion) Wurm needs more danger, everywhere. It needs more challenges thrown at the player, village, community at large. It doesn't need more player created distraction (although that's awesome too) it needs more environmental ones. Right now, Freedom isn't really PVE. The environment is largely inert and unable to challenge a player. It's too boring to keep all but the most stubborn players, and we've already met them. We are them.

I'm not suggesting peoples homes should be raided by players on Freedom and all their gear stolen, but the environment should be able to kick us in the ass and force us to work to keep it at bay from time to time. Maybe a village constantly under threat of mob attack has penalties to it's productivity or increased upkeep cost or something as well as having to manually repair damaged buildings and walls when the dangerous npc population reaches a certain threshold and needs culling? Maybe make these random, server wide events that encourage players to band together to help drive off rampaging Trolls in a certain area? Think of it like a weekly Dragon slaying or something, but without any huge rewards.

I dunno, it's just needs more exciting stuff going on for the new/newer players to get excited about. Older players may not want the potential added hassle, but the game needs it desperately.

Wurm isn't ever going to be successful if it's development is being hindered by it's own player base. For the sake of the game we have to stop resisting change and encourage developments that will attract new players. We just have to make sure along the way it doesn't get dumbed down.

Incidently, I'm not strictly having a pop at old players who want to protect their time investments, I'm more annoyed with the general consensus that changes that make things a bit harder/realistic or more dangerous are bad and I am especially irked at how those who shout the loudest are usually the only ones Rolf ever hears.

Maybe I should drop a gold into the wishing well and ask for my own private audience ...

Hmm maybe even adjusting mob movement, for example Deer, Cows, horses etc move faster in the day and practically stay still during night, spiders, trolls, goblins etc move faster at night.

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To keep people playing Wurm it's about setting goals. So give them something to do; get them all to build a sailboat for themselves, get them all living inside a house, maybe build another deed, then rebuild all of the wooden buildings in stone, then expand the deed and build new houses, then build a new farm, etc etc... that list is based on what I first did when playing Wurm. Now, 10 months in and an extra 3 accounts later, I usually have too much to do... :D

I'd recommend trying to get people to set skill goals too. Maybe one player wants to be a boat builder, another a farmer, another a carpenter?

Games like Wurm are always hard to get into. However, once you find your feet, it's very very fun :D

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I'm quite happy I was able to start this sort of discussion. Two things that put me down in the dumps about Wurm were the lack of my friends playing, and the lack of my neighbors and community playing. Wurm always felt dead to me, and I felt like I was playing a singleplayer game half the time.

I'd love to see wurm appeal to a bigger audiance and I'd love to see higher levels of player retention, so I have a large amount of people I can play with.

One of my suggestions is to get Wurm to show up on XFire. I found out about APB: Reloaded by seeing a friend of a friend playing APB: Reloaded on XFire. Since then, I've spent between $100 and $200 on premiums and cash shop items.

Another suggestion is after Wurm 1.0 is released, to try and get it released on steam. APB: Reloaded gained 3 million players in a single week after it's release on steam; regardless of retention, that's good exposure. Although, once someone has played a game and their first impression is made, if they don't like a game, they're very unlikely to try it out again in the future. So if the game is ever released on steam, it will need to be heavily polished.

Edited by SirRick

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Hmm maybe even adjusting mob movement, for example Deer, Cows, horses etc move faster in the day and practically stay still during night, spiders, trolls, goblins etc move faster at night.

Anything which makes movement around the world less pedestrian is good although if things got tweaked during night time hours maybe have the spawn rate for hostile mobs increase a fair bit and have them actively gravitate towards structures or tokens. Give you a reason to get back home behind your house walls before nightfall ...

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Another suggestion is after Wurm 1.0 is released, to try and get it released on steam. APB: Reloaded gained 3 million players in a single week after it's release on steam; regardless of retention, that's good exposure.

From a PR Perspective we don't want to go too quickly with the game. 3 million more people living on Wurm's servers would be rather too much, and chances are that they'd all leave within a month anyway... the best thing in my opinion to try and do is to target the players who are most likely to keep playing, enjoying and spreading the word about Wurm. People who already have MMO experience are more likely to be able to stick around on Wurm... which begs a question; how much MMO experience did your friends have? If they'd only spent their gaming lives playing shooters up until Wurm then it's no wonder that they quit. MMOs are a totally different genre, it's like trying to ride a unicycle when you've only ever driven a car in terms of differences.

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Every game I've played has retention issues, it always seems better to understand why people quit your game vrs asking current players how to keep players, if read on other sites such as MMORPG and other places Wurm is mentioned you can see players that have tried and left, while it is usually negative, it is informative just the same.

If your currently playing and have for a long time you've probably adjusted to the very things that cause players to leave.

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From a PR Perspective we don't want to go too quickly with the game. 3 million more people living on Wurm's servers would be rather too much, and chances are that they'd all leave within a month anyway... the best thing in my opinion to try and do is to target the players who are most likely to keep playing, enjoying and spreading the word about Wurm.

You make a very good point. Too much exposure too quickly could be detrimental. I could see all the 1x1 shacks right now. *shutters*

People who already have MMO experience are more likely to be able to stick around on Wurm... which begs a question; how much MMO experience did your friends have? If they'd only spent their gaming lives playing shooters up until Wurm then it's no wonder that they quit. MMOs are a totally different genre, it's like trying to ride a unicycle when you've only ever driven a car in terms of differences.

Most of my friends have experience with First Person Shooter games as well as MMORPG's. MMO's ranging from World of Warcraft, to Silkroad, to Runescape, and even Star Wars Galaxies, they've got a wide variety of game experiences.

Edited by SirRick

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Incidently, I'm not strictly having a pop at old players who want to protect their time investments, I'm more annoyed with the general consensus that changes that make things a bit harder/realistic or more dangerous are bad and I am especially irked at how those who shout the loudest are usually the only ones Rolf ever hears.

Maybe I should drop a gold into the wishing well and ask for my own private audience ...

I'd love to see a way that we can make those who don't like to argue feel safe enough to express their opinion. A in game vote system seems like it would work to me.

I don't want mobs breaking into my deed, destroying my stuff, stealing my stuff or killing my animals. I might as well go play on Epic if that was desired. I feel pretty confident that anyone who comes here desiring to stay way from PvP-like atmosphere will want similar.

Although, these ideas would be okay:

1. Some disadvantage relating to crafting or building if we don't go out and push back the "wild" (kill mobs). Actions take longer, ql improves slower, skill gain is slower...that kinds of stuff.

Whoa, this is harder then I though. The challenge is to come up ways that mobs can challenge PvE but not destroy or take things that players worked hard to acquire.

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I think I've brought up an important issue that's bigger than my friends now that I've given it some thought. I'd like this thread to continue to constructively brainstorm how Wurm Online can retain new and old players.

The first topic I'd like to point out:

FIRST IMPRESSIONS

I'd like to start this section by stating that the wurm website is the first point of contact in most cases, and I have to commend you guys for your job on the website. It looks great! But what happens after they download the client and get into the game?

The tutorial is the very first slice of wurm that new players are going to get. If they have any trouble figuring it out, or they don't see the kind of eyecandy they are looking for, they may quit before even completing it. I have to say that most if not all of my friends have been stuck on the tutorial at one point or another. I will admit that they probably misread the instructions, or skipped through them altogether, but if my friends get stuck, so will the general population.

I read in a Human Resources manual a long time ago that corporate research shows that it takes someone about two minutes for them to decide whether they like another person or not, and about four minutes for this impression to lock in. I would assume that a similar rule applies for games. Therefore, it's extremely important for Wurm Online to show only it's very best colors during the tutorial and in the starting areas.

A perfect example is the starting area in Deliverance. For the longest time it was an open field with some nasty marshy tiles. What would be more appealing and awe-inspiring to new players? An open field with some nasty marsh tiles, or an intricately designed castle-like area with cobblestone, a garden, and a fountain?

I will be posting more topics once I have a little extra time.

Edited by SirRick

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I think I've brought up an important issue that's bigger than my friends now that I've given it some thought. I'd like this thread to continue to constructively brainstorm how Wurm Online can retain new and old players.

The first topic I'd like to point out:

FIRST IMPRESSIONS

The tutorial is the very first slice of wurm that new players are going to get. If they have any trouble figuring it out, or they don't see the kind of eyecandy they are looking for, they may quit before even completing it. I have to say that most if not all of my friends have been stuck on the tutorial at one point or another. I will admit that they probably misread the instructions, or skipped through them altogether, but if my friends get stuck, so will the general population.

I read in a Human Resources manual a long time ago that corporate research shows that it takes someone about two minutes for them to decide whether they like another person or not, and about four minutes for this impression to lock in. I would assume that a similar rule applies for games. Therefore, it's extremely important for Wurm Online to show only it's very best colors during the tutorial and in the starting areas.

I will be posting more topics once I have a little extra time.

Impossible to do in a tutorial. Wurm is a game of creative exploration first and foremost and that's not the sort of thing a tutorial can demonstrate. Now a noob starter village (I think I posted about this before somewhere) showing off what people can do and giving them a chance to look around and learn before a bit before throwing themselves into the Wilderness would massively. You'd get a few days of automatic membership in this started deed (you can of course leave at any time) where you can work on some low level skills (carpentry, mining etc) and build a small house. At the end of your time, your sent out into the world with only what you've crafted while in the noob village and your house knocked down for another new player to practise on.

Something like that so the real world isn't such a shocker.

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Impossible to do in a tutorial. Wurm is a game of creative exploration first and foremost and that's not the sort of thing a tutorial can demonstrate.

I'm not quite sure how simplifying the instructions and polishing the tutorial and it's scenery is impossible to do.

Edited by SirRick

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Probably been suggested before but I think it would be interesting if the tutorial was player run and managed. A team (or teams) of experienced players volunteer to run the tutorial server. Instead of just following pop-ups and a few things new players would be interacting with other players in various villages that can showcase different aspects of the game. Lets say there are 5 tutorial starter villages a new player can join from the start. Each village has a team of volunteers to show new players the ropes. Once a player is ready and has the basics down they are taken to a portal area where they choose which server they want to join. This way new players can learn a bit more; be given tasks like making a house etc to learn everything before they are taken to the other servers. This would help with the chaos around the starter zones, give new players personal tutorials and the ability to see various aspects of the game (shipbuilding, terraforming, farming, etc) and they have interaction it from being boring, or missing parts and getting stuck. Older players making alts can of course contact team members to have the character skip this and take them to the portals.

this would also give new players more time to learn, more time to see what server they want to join, and possibly make connections in advance with other new players to set out together. or get help finding recruiting villages on the various servers.

just an idea.

Edited by Tek

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welp i have a large deed 75x85, pretty much a 20 man team kind deed i do solo. im also the leader of my aliance. If ya ask any1 about me and my projects, generally your gonna hear something that will sound like a ton of effort and insane. But i do this because i like my sandbox, i love building, also enjoy helping my aliance mates and the community out when i can. Good way to change things up is get more involved in your community, get creative on your projects, think up something insane possibly never done before. Like for instance i got 20k-30k tiles to mine, i am connecting all my mines together, eventually adding ramps to each vien and turning my cave into 1 hell of a maze, then ill pop my doors off and let everyone roam it and see if they can find their way out. Also making boats, soon a merchant area. My tasks are literally endless. When i need a break ill pop over to epic have sum fun their awhile and again help others. Wurm is wat you make it to be. More n more custumization is coming, more we can build, decorate and do the more fun it becomes. As for your comment on the shacks that look alike. why not make your shack ontop of a pyramid towering all the others, then your home is different then the others :-P Donno if this will help ya, but for me it does :-)

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I'm not quite sure how simplifying the instructions and polishing the tutorial and it's scenery is impossible to do.

Tutorial just shows you enough so you're not completely in the dark when you spawn. But once you do spawn, your choices are basically wandering in some random direction until you find a clear area of land to try and settle on, run into a player village who may or may not have you or die in the wilderness. An extended turorial starter deed would give you more of a chance to get used to your surroundings, learn at a more sensible pace and have folks around to help out.

While it's possible to recreate the tutorial area and expand it enough for a noob starter village, having a starter village on each individual server would let people learn amongst their peers and give them a chance to explore and socialise a bit without worrying too much if they die. Perhaps for the duration of their stay in the noob village if they happen to die anything they have on them stays with them when they spawn again, instead of just starter tools.

Tutorial teaches you the basics. Noob starter village lets you explore those abilities in more detail in safety. At least until you're kicked out on your ass.

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Tutorial just shows you enough so you're not completely in the dark when you spawn. But once you do spawn, your choices are basically wandering in some random direction until you find a clear area of land to try and settle on, run into a player village who may or may not have you or die in the wilderness. An extended turorial starter deed would give you more of a chance to get used to your surroundings, learn at a more sensible pace and have folks around to help out.

While it's possible to recreate the tutorial area and expand it enough for a noob starter village, having a starter village on each individual server would let people learn amongst their peers and give them a chance to explore and socialise a bit without worrying too much if they die. Perhaps for the duration of their stay in the noob village if they happen to die anything they have on them stays with them when they spawn again, instead of just starter tools.

Tutorial teaches you the basics. Noob starter village lets you explore those abilities in more detail in safety. At least until you're kicked out on your ass.

We're talking about two separate things here, and I may touch on that topic in the future, but the one I'm particularly focused on discussing right now is how the tutorial and starter areas should be cleaned up and redecorated.

What do you guys think about a better looking, simplified tutorial, and better looking starter areas? Do you think this will help with new player retention? Why or why not?

Edited by SirRick
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It's just not possible for me to agree with Busted any more on every single point he's made. I too found myself bored not too long ago. I had a village, good skills, made more money than I knew what to do with. It was pretty much the end game for me. A spark kindled something somewhere. I wanted something bigger. A bustling village comprised entirely of members who would never have to want for anything outside the village. I've almost achieved that, but it's nowhere near the end game for me. I'm now much more involved and interested in assisting the community and helping out in any way I can with development.

But I still crave something more. There is no threat. Maybe I can't tank a champ troll yet, haven't had the chance, but the thought doesn't scare me, neither did this:

9oTY0l.jpg

If there was some way for the world to scare me, to threaten my very well being and everything I've built, then I would be truly challenged

And yeah, I love PVP, but I'm not touching it with a 10 foot pole here, at least not yet, not until I've become completely bored.

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We're talking about two separate things here, and I may touch on that topic in the future, but the one I'm particularly focused on discussing right now is how the tutorial and starter areas should be cleaned up and redecorated.

Well, no, we're not talking about different things. You say the tutorial doesn't do enough to fully prepare you and I agree with that. You say the spawn point is a marshland and not very awe inspiring. I agree with that too. Combining extended elements of the tutorial into a noob spawn town would allow people to look at the real world (so to speak) and see practical applications of the theory taught in the tutorial all around them along with people they can share their experience with.

Throwing more information at people in the tutorial will just confuse them. Theres enough to get you started but currently once you spawn into a freedom server you don't have too many options that will let you learn things at a pace that suits you. If you are concerned that people get bored running through the tutorial as it stands now, I don't see how by expanding upon it's content is going to make them any less likely to get frustrated and skip it.

People want to get going as soon as possible. Tutorials annoy people in general after a short while so it's better to get them in game asap armed with vital and intuitive knowledge that they can apply quickly. Combine this introduction with a safe place to initially explore the game world's features seems like a much better idea than making the existing tutorial more laborious.

Also, I'm suggesting here the noob starter town IS the spawn in point, not something elsewhere on the server people have to travel to. That could very well be tidied up and made more presentable and maintained by CA's and GM's.

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It's just not possible for me to agree with Busted any more on every single point he's made.

You flatterer you.

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Extending the tutorial would not be a good thing, and it has come a long way compared to what it used to be. And to think, I almost quit in the middle of the tutorial. But I do agree, having some sort of help wouldn't be a bad thing after being throw in to the world. Something to get rid of the "Where's a tree? I'm gonna make a mallet!" mentality. And some players have taken to doing this as pet projects. But if you build up and prepare the area too much, you end up with a "What's the point?" mentality. That's not good either.

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