Mean To Be Or Not Meant To Be That Is The Question.

[Protunia 735]

I have a couple of questions about what is meant to be or not meant to be and why some things are allowed to remain in game despite being bugs and others are removed.

First I know why the lamp change was done and fixed, but this lamp issue that was not mean to be was allowed to be in game for years. When it finally was decided to be a not meant to be bug and changed the players were given more upkeep cost to have what was and is now not meant to be.

In other cases such as "fountain backpacks" this clearly is a not meant to be item and has been allowed for years as well. These items were made by the hundreds more than likely and some players have collected them up through this time. Currently these are benefitting a few people who sell them to others at a high premium.

My question is why are some things that are not meant to be removed years later while others are allowed to stay???

If the object of the game is to fix it and remove "not mean to be" bugs should not all things that are bugs including items be removed??

[Gromdehar 125]

In other cases such as "fountain backpacks" this clearly is a not meant to be item and has been allowed for years as well. These items were made by the hundreds more than likely and some players have collected them up through this time. Currently these are benefitting a few people who sell them to others at a high premium.

In terms of fountain backpacks, I am under the impression that the mechanism to create new ones has been removed and existing ones were allowed to remain. They're collectable items, and if individual lamps were able to have the old "never need filling" as an attribute. then we would see them become valuable as well.

[Protunia 735]

In terms of fountain backpacks, I am under the impression that the mechanism to create new ones has been removed and existing ones were allowed to remain. They're collectable items, and if individual lamps were able to have the old "never need filling" as an attribute. then we would see them become valuable as well.

If the object of the game is to fix it and remove "not mean to be" bugs should not all things that are bugs including items be removed??

I do not see the difference between a bug and a bug.

In this case one was removed that was a benefit to many and one was allowed to stay that benefit a few.

One was removed and replaced with a fee while the other was left to make profit off of.

Both are bugs and should have been approached in the same manner I think.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Protunia

[Kegan 3,926]

I am with you on this one i think there should be a check run and any fountain that is not on a tile should be removed form the game.

[Gromdehar 125]

If the object of the game is to fix it and remove "not mean to be" bugs should not all things that are bugs including items be removed??

It depends on whether Rolf decides such items have character and history and point to a time in Wurm's past when such things existed. Your argument could also be blatantly extended to old large anvils and butcher knives (and similarly changed items) - items which used to have a different weight upon construction. The mechanics were changed yet the old implementations were allowed to remain unchanged, thereby becoming historic treasures.

Players don't have to like the grandfathered items, and they don't even have to use them. In some cases they are advantageous (i.e., fountain backpacks). They are what they are. "Sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes... well, he eats you"

[Wulfgar 1,119]

Yeah, lets compare oranges (butcher knives) with rolls royces (fountain backpacks).

[Protunia 735]

It depends on whether Rolf decides such items have character and history and point to a time in Wurm's past when such things existed. Your argument could also be blatantly extended to old large anvils and butcher knives (and similarly changed items) - items which used to have a different weight upon construction. The mechanics were changed yet the old implementations were allowed to remain unchanged, thereby becoming historic treasures.

Players don't have to like the grandfathered items, and they don't even have to use them. In some cases they are advantageous (i.e., fountain backpacks). They are what they are. "Sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes... well, he eats you"

I am not one who buys into historic bugs sorry if anything that shows favoritism.

If that is the case then the Lamps were Historic and should have been left alone.

If you are going to remove bugs years later then all bugs should be removed regardless.

These fountain packs or other items like them should be removed from the game for the same reason Lamps were changed.

Because they were not meant to be.

Picking Winners and Losers when it comes to bugs is IMHO not good policy no matter if they have been in a game for years or weeks.

[Jberg 3,070]

This thread is not likely to lead anywhere constructive or relevant for the game, only serve to incite others into reacting brashly, since it is a sensitive subject.

But, all in all, Rolf has made his decision on how to handle these matters.

Therefore; *click*

[Oracle 318]

Your argument is based on supposition and your concerns are ill founded. No one here can say what Rolf can or cannot be doing as you are not privvy to his thoughts. Needless to say he will do what he sees best for wurm before 1.01 and therafter. He is also on record stating that all bugs are important and will be dealt with on priority basis.

Actually there isnt any need for this thread as I have answered it although I havent been specific. Jberg was acting in a preemptive manner that a few will not see as acceptable to them but none the less was done properly.

I am unlocking this to see if you can keep it constructive.

[Kadore 926]

All the items currently in fountians could be lost, but again that would just effect those that have these, anything to your usual psychobabble Protunia or just one of the " If I dont have one no one should crowd?"

I'd consider the amount of accounts lost over sudden changes, especially those away from the game, even if were to give some type of warning.

[Aetherwalker 1,863]

I see no reason to change it, it's mostly just a convenience thing. I mean a lot of people just get them so they only need one chest in their house rather than a dozen coffins. Not exactly sure how anyone is getting an unfair advantage from a little extra storage space.

Fountaincontainers just use TARDIS technology, that's all. They're bigger on the inside.

[Kswords 461]

I really don't see a problem with these items. You can't recreate them and they don't break the game mechanics in any way currently. The lamps I had no idea about.

I was left out of the whole fountain pack thing and found the ones I have currently on an abandoned deed.

The fountain backpacks/pans/satchels though are very nice when storing many items.

If my house was busted into on Chaos by some GM scouting for fountains to explode I would not be a happy person.

[Kegan 3,926]

Well the thing for me is that if it is such a great thing then make something new that will match its mechanics and sell it at the trader or something. If you have people that have things that were an exploit then it sends the wrong message.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Kegan

[ashoof 43]

"My question is why are some things that are not meant to be removed years later while others are allowed to stay???"

To answer your question to the fullest extent of my knowledge.

Rolf makes these changes in order to benefit wurm as he sees fit and i'm assuming raise profits for the game. Think about it, the lamp fix now requires people to hire templars to refill lamps on deed. More upkeep payed into the deed which eventually equates into more money in rolf's pocket which we would hope translates into more money spent on developing the game which is good for everyone.

On the topic of fountain backpacks or whatever they are, (I don't own one) but it doesn't look like removing that bug or "feature" would produce any positive affect for either rolf, or the playerbase... so basically a (-/-)

Edited August 26, 2012 by ashoof

[Gavin 971]

I think people are missing the real point here; so many people made fountain backpacks and fountain pans because it made the game more fun- do you remember not that long ago we were all forced to use small carts, and it was frustrating moving large amounts of items around, and the response to it was to introduce a large cart with more holding capacity but harder to create?

If we had a 'huge forge' that had more holding capacity but required 100 bricks and clay to create and used more fuel, and a 'huge cart' that required four horses to pull it or something, the incentive to own fountain pans would essentially dissapear overnight, and everyone could enjoy their benefits.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Gavin

[Kegan 3,926]

I think people are missing the real point here; so many people made fountain backpacks and fountain pans because it made the game more fun- do you remember not that long ago we were all forced to use small carts, and it was frustrating moving large amounts of items around, and the response to it was to introduce a large cart with more holding capacity but harder to create?

If we had a 'huge forge' that had more holding capacity but required 100 bricks and clay to create and used more fuel, and a 'huge cart' that required four horses to pull it or something, the incentive to own fountain pans would essentially dissapear overnight, and everyone could enjoy their benefits.

+1 There is no need to keep a broken game mechanic/exploit in the game just fix it. If you don't want it in the game and you stop people from making them then take it out don't leave the old exploited items around it just sends the wrong message.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Kegan

[Rudie 1,479]

Then all exploited items, skills etc should be removed. Simple as that. If you're gonna do it, get rid of it all for consistency's sake.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Rudie

[Kadore 926]

Well the thing for me is that if it is such a great thing then make something new that will match its mechanics and sell it at the trader or something. If you have people that have things that were an exploit then it sends the wrong message.

Exploits aside, what of people that don't have spyglasses, Keeper of Faith titles etc. quite a few games I've played in the past have had items that were no longer obtainable, how is this different, because they once could be made and now they cannot?

[Maximustehgreat 353]

Exploits aside, what of people that don't have spyglasses, Keeper of Faith titles etc. quite a few games I've played in the past have had items that were no longer obtainable, how is this different, because they once could be made and now they cannot?

Exactly this.

Protunia, the items you talk about were left because the issue was fixed. And mostly people dont know if its a bug unless its said so. Its like all the weapons with Woa, Nimbleness, RT, HD Mind stealer Stacked. They are clearly "bugged" weapons, do you see anyone else complaining?, no. They were left in the game as relics, just like fountain backpacks. They sell for a bit of silver, like a relic would, that is an investment. Not to mention if you were to take these out now, after the many years they have been left as "relics", you are basically taking away peoples monetary investments. They have become a part of the economy just like the weapons.

[Kegan 3,926]

Exploits aside, what of people that don't have spyglasses, Keeper of Faith titles etc. quite a few games I've played in the past have had items that were no longer obtainable, how is this different, because they once could be made and now they cannot?

The spyglass was a gift not an old exploited item that was left behind when the exploit was stopped.

[Kegan 3,926]

They were left in the game as relics, just like fountain backpacks. They sell for a bit of silver, like a relic would, that is an investment. Not to mention if you were to take these out now, after the many years they have been left as "relics", you are basically taking away peoples monetary investments. They have become a part of the economy just like the weapons.

This is the problem they should not have been left in the game it is like Rudie said in his post it is time to clean it up before the release of Wurm 1.0..IMO

[Reylaark 1,100]

Reeds...

The code was fixed so they can no longer be planted in inappropriate places. However, some may still see some reeds in odd places because it presumably didn't make sense to go through and seek out all the bugged ones since they'll eventually poof in one way or another.

In the case of these backpacks, you're saying it's not the fairness of availability but rather why one bug and not the other?

It's the manner in which the bug is dealt with is all. This is like the reed situation. These types of containers can no longer be made. The ones that do exist... some may go away as old-timers who have them stop playing.

Lamps are a different type of bug mechanism. A fix of changing all lamps going forward but leaving "broken" ones behind for old-timers wouldn't have been possible I don't think... not entirely sure of course, but from the bit of coding I've done over the years, it's not that far-fetched a theory.

Needing a templar... well, presumably there will be an influx of new players when 1.0 comes out. If the dude looking at the finances thinks this will allow greater growth and better hosting for stability/scalability... then the time to do that is just before you'd expect a lot of new players.

They will simply learn to play the game with that as it is.

Perhaps it was postponed until it really just had to be done because that's all the two cylinder needed financially to keep running. We're now changing to a four cylinder, and that means having more gas handy to power it all. Trying to run the engine as lean as possible only to see it stall on take-off means buhbye.

[Crusader 114]

In other cases such as "fountain backpacks" this clearly is a not meant to be item and has been allowed for years as well. These items were made by the hundreds more than likely and some players have collected them up through this time. Currently these are benefitting a few people who sell them to others at a high premium.

I agree on this, I didn't really have any issues with fountain backpacks or fountain satchels until people profited from them. Obviously it wasn't intended, it was deemed a bug, and was fixed. So why now allow people to get money from selling bugged items?

That seems very bad for publicity that people can go around selling bugged items that are no longer able to be made because they were deemed buggy and overpowered... but here you can have it for 40s. Wat. If you remove a bug, fix it, then remove the existence of the bug. You wouldn't allow someone to get 99 mining via a bug then fix the bug and say, "Okay you can keep the 99 mining, I fixed it!" You would revert their skill.

The same thing applies to fountainpacks. There's a big difference between a spyglass and a fountain backpack. One was intentional and given out, and the other was a clear obvious bug that was abused and taken advantage of. People shouldn't be rewarded and making a profit off of bugs, they should of reported them, not mass-produced them. People who may them knew it was wrong, and they knew they were unintended. Trust me, I am a exploiter myself who abused, and I knew darn well what was and wasn't balanced when I abused a bug, anyone who claims otherwise is just silly.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Crusader

[Kadore 926]

This is the problem they should not have been left in the game it is like Rudie said in his post it is time to clean it up before the release of Wurm 1.0..IMO

And this " cleanup " will solve?

[Kadore 926]

I agree on this, I didn't really have any issues with fountain backpacks or fountain satchels until people profited from them. Obviously it wasn't intended, it was deemed a bug, and was fixed. So why now allow people to get money from selling bugged items?

That seems very bad for publicity that people can go around selling bugged items that are no longer able to be made because they were deemed buggy and overpowered... but here you can have it for 40s. Wat. If you remove a bug, fix it, then remove the existence of the bug. You wouldn't allow someone to get 99 mining via a bug then fix the bug and say, "Okay you can keep the 99 mining, I fixed it!" You would revert their skill.

The same thing applies to fountainpacks.

This is different than selling accounts with stats from Windows of Opertunity?