We're Doomed!

[atazs 960]

Home servers was a bad idea and was only put in because rolf tought it would bring back many old players who missed them. But he was wrong. Back then there were no freedom servers. So all the players had to play there and of course the play style was also different. People are too used to the freedom servers nowadays(im not saying its a bad thing). And also there are too much servers for too few players. While i dont play on epic anymore i dont see what is the point of them. To catch up safely for PvP? Okay but its much much easier to do it on epic anyway, and all it does is just generates less pvp. As smejack said home servers breed freedomers who go there because they find the grind and skills etc... harder on the other servers and they also have no intention to PvP or outright hate PvP. That is just wrong and even with the ore caps and everything its still not working. Then of course these players complain when their deed gets destroyed by a scenario or get raided, so rolf puts in huge nerfs for home servers ruining the PvP for the raiders and those who want to do PvP. Now not everyone who lives on the home servers are like this but the majority are.

Edited August 22, 2012 by atazs

[Tryfaen 709]

the boss should spawn on the losing home server imo

[Kraljtatov 34]

Why does everything have to be feast or famine in relation to how much one is supposed to engage in PvP? The home-servers are the perfect middle-ground to me for those who want a little more risk than Freedom but don't want to get stomped as soon as they get to Epic. The home-servers don't 'breed' Freedomers; rather they harbor the beliefs of Freedomers and those beliefs are further entrenched when you have players from Elevation nagging Rolf to put a size-12 boot up their rear end. The problem is not the home-servers harboring Freedomers though. The problem is that Elevation lacks appeal and many are turned off by the not-so-friendly nature of those on Elevation, at least by what can be viewed on the forums.

Back to the topic at hand though: Does Epic deserve a better scenario ending? Definitely.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Kraljtatov

[Farmerbob 369]

Too much High Fantasy. Driving a wedge between me and wanting to play Wurm at all.

The Wurm should eat all artifacts and then eat Valrei, banish and severely weaken the gods, destroy all existing Avatars and then eat itself, leaving all the weird high fantasy stuff in the past.

[Bernd 0]

It was stated that there would be map resets on epic...so you can hardly complain now. And there is quiet alot of warning, you just have to keep on eye on valreimoon on twitter, and the various valrei moon maps.

This is part of what I am getting at though, we knew there could be a reset and building anything on a pvp server is not safe so I do not understand the logic behind being upset about a map reset when a raiding group could easily put you in the exact same position.

I have not read that on the wiki while I was choosing a server. And raid is not comparable with a wipe.

Btw why not also skill-wipe?

[Protunia 735]

I have not read that on the wiki while I was choosing a server. And raid is not comparable with a wipe.

Btw why not also skill-wipe?

Rolf said.....

I heard that there are still rumours that the Epic servers will reset periodically. Those ideas were scrapped quite long ago when I fleshed out the actual scenario structure. When a scenarios ends something more or less dramatic happens which changes the situation in the cluster in one or more ways, then a new scenario begins with another outcome.

[Eyesgood 2,121]

Just my 2c: If Wurm had zero PVP, zero Epic, and three times the PVE dangers and challenges (i.e. more intelligent aggro, natural disasters, events, etc.), Wurm would be a friendlier game and have a thousand more players. Development effort would be more focused and more productive. In the context of PVP MMO's, Wurm is not even on the radar. It's too expensive, too risky, and too grindy to ever be a good PVP game. There are maybe a few dozen addicted to Wurm in the context of PVP, but there are maybe thousands that love Wurm's sandbox PVE and that is simply a fact.

If Rolf would focus on the sandbox instead of the pillbox, there is no limit to Wurm's potential.

[hankrearden 144]

Just my 2c: If Wurm had zero PVP, zero Epic, and three times the PVE dangers and challenges (i.e. more intelligent aggro, natural disasters, events, etc.), Wurm would be a friendlier game and have a thousand more players.

Maybe, but it wouldnt have 1,000 more players at the same time. we would have an extra 100 or so, most would get bored and quit within 3-4 months, then another 100 to replace them, who then lose interest after a few months and so on. MOST people will become bored with just grooming their unicorn for 1000th time and leave the game. Rolf wants pvp because more players who try the game will find a reason to stick around once they have beat the survival challenge.

[conloch 344]

People try pvp when they get bored of tending their fields, it's a good aspect of the game that is enjoyable and more should try.

Edited August 23, 2012 by conloch

[Protunia 735]

If thats true why is the PvP population always gettting less and less the more freedom PvE servers released?

I just hate to bring this chart up again....

I see alittle blip over 3500 when Epic came out those were mostly Freedomers making different guys to try Epic.

After the drop of people letting Epic accounts go and some rage quitting I see steady a steady climb pretty much as

he has been working on the overall game more. Except for the rage quit there after the light fix.

We will soon pass 3500 again and without Elevation or Choas really holding anyone.

Even looking at the F2P beginning on the chart you see major people joining PvE and Chaos on a slow and steady decline.

You can come up with what ever reasoning you want too, but it is quite clear More people will continue to join the PvE of Wurm.

I do not think anything will really fix the issues with the way PvP is in Wurm is because of what Eyesgood has already stated.

Perhaps if you got rid of all things that cost players coin and dropping all items when PvPing and just made it fun to enjoy fighting each other then you might see some numbers grow, but as long as it is costly in anyway shape or form it will always be at a low population.

If PvP has to be about taking & destroying someone elses stuff and coin to be considered fun then its not good PvP to begin with.

Edited August 23, 2012 by Protunia

[Kyrmius 187]

Just my 2c: If Wurm had zero PVP, zero Epic, and three times the PVE dangers and challenges (i.e. more intelligent aggro, natural disasters, events, etc.), Wurm would be a friendlier game and have a thousand more players. Development effort would be more focused and more productive. In the context of PVP MMO's, Wurm is not even on the radar. It's too expensive, too risky, and too grindy to ever be a good PVP game. There are maybe a few dozen addicted to Wurm in the context of PVP, but there are maybe thousands that love Wurm's sandbox PVE and that is simply a fact.

If Rolf would focus on the sandbox instead of the pillbox, there is no limit to Wurm's potential.

This has been my argument for years. You Sir have just said it a thousand times clearer and more effectively than I ever managed to. Well said.

I don't see any harm in having PvP on Wild/Chaos, or on an Epic server system, but I do see a problem in PvP being the main focus of development as it has been for years.

I also know Rolf is doing all of this... Wurm... for PvP, at least from what he has said in the past and how he has said it. If he stopped doing that he might stop doing Wurm altogether. I guess we take what we can get I suppose. Sometimes that is all we can do.

Edited August 23, 2012 by Kyrmius

[SmeJack 5,796]

And raid is not comparable with a wipe.

If a raider catapults every wall and house on your deed and takes everything with them, you may as well have just had a map reset

[Kraljtatov 34]

If a raider catapults every wall and house on your deed and takes everything with them, you may as well have just had a map reset

This is assuming that there is no one or nothing there to stop them.

[SmeJack 5,796]

This is assuming that there is no one or nothing there to stop them.

Ive not been to a home server for a raid and had any resistance yet, they log out.

[Klaa 4,872]

Ive not been to a home server for a raid and had any resistance yet, they log out.

Thats a good enough excuse to completely trash someone's deed... Wall in entrances, burn everything wood, wizz in the water, block mines, kill the women, ###### the livestock, dig up fields, and just be a warped unchin-snouted harpy.

Edited August 23, 2012 by Klaa

[Protunia 735]

Thats a good enough excuse to completely trash someone's deed... Wall in entrances, burn everything wood, wizz in the water, block mines, kill the women, ###### the livestock, dig up fields, and just be a warped unchin-snouted harpy.

Yeah... Nothing like good ole Vindictive style FFA PvP for bringing a bunch of new players and keep population.

[Suntzu 644]

This is an idea I put forward about in #wurm IRC that a lot of people liked.

When the Wurm wins it sends around 2-3 groups of 50 zombie like monsters called "Servant of the Wurm".

These monsters stick together in their groups and go around the map causing carnage. They travel at around 15km/h and can climb any slope. If they come into someones local they start heading towards them to kill them. They smash walls in 1 hit and have 80 or so fighting skill each. Maybe to make it fair only one of them will fight one person one on one and if the person manages to kill the servant they are fighting the rest of the servants let out a horrific cry and freeze for 2 minutes to give the player a chance to escape before they unfreeze and start heading for them again. Deed guards do not fight them and instead all despawn the second they step onto a deed since the spirits are wise enough to know that the Servants of the Wurm are to be feared greatly.

The servants will head to each settlement on the map and destroy 80% of all buildings on the deed, mess up the terraforming a bit and if they aren't stopped will disband the deed via a 10 minute timer in which they will all surround the token chanting as they use their magic to disband the deed. (All upkeep money will go back to the deed holders bank)

Once every deed is disbanded and if they are still not stopped they will head to the Altar of Three and Bone altar. They will then start a 30 minute action timer which starts a 30 minute countdown on the screen of everyone online. This action timer is them using the black magic of their master, The Wurm, to destroy the sacred altar of three and bone altar.

If they are not all killed and stopped in this action timer the altars will be destroyed, vanquishing the only magic that was stopping The Wurm from scorching the lands into a barren wasteland of nothing but death and chaos. He will then devour the world and the Epic servers (maybe only Elevation) will go offline and everyone will teleport back to where the epic portal they teleported to Epic through last on the Freedom cluster.

Then a new map shall be created and started and everyone will go over there via the same method as before, the portals.

Once you use the portals you are teleported to a silent realm, alone. A message will come up explainging there will be no Altar of Three or Bone altar when you cross over to the Epic world. The message will explain that the gods managed to use the last of their magic to instead of the Servants of The Wurm completely shatter the Altars they only blasted them into fragments which are now buried all over the map. In this realm you choose who you want to swear aliegence to and you are then teleported to that respective start deed and the hunt begins. You can choose to become a priest at the start deed with instant 100 faith however with no holy altar in the lands you can only cast one spell, Locate fragment. This works just like Locate artifact except for the fragments and this will be how to find them. Each altar has been broken into 10 fragments, you must gather all of the ones of your respective god(s).

The site for the altars are already decided when the map is made. You must construct the altar in the site. To rebuild the altar you must have 10 priests at full favor who each hold one fragment and walk into the holy ground the altar is to be built on. There will be a small peice of rubble or something that all priests must right click on and click 'Build great Altar'. Once clicked there will be a 1 or 2 hour countdown in which the altar will start being built. In this time limit the opposing god/goddess followers must do anything they can to kill the priests and stop the rebuilding. The priests can move around but must not leave the holy area, the holy area will be pretty big, about the size of a local range so there is enough room to pvp. There can be no buildings at all in the holy area.

If 2 priests are killed and an enemy gets 2 fragments it will vanish from their inventorys and bury itself somewhere in the map again and the rebuild will be a failure.

If the rebuild is succesfull the altar being built will appear and the opposing faction will lose, but they can still attempt to build their altar later on. The successful side will get a few bonuses, good bonuses but not overpowered bonuses. These bonuses will last until the other faction successfully builds their altar in which case they will go away and the map will be back to 'normal' for a time until another scenario happens.

Cool story bro. Why do we get insta 100 faith though?

[Madt 1,178]

I dunno, just cause. Once their altar is built everyones faith would go back down to 30 and unpriest and then they can either choose to become a proper priest with all the spells of that god they chose before or just be a follower with 30 faith.

[Klaa 4,872]

Yeah... Nothing like good ole Vindictive style FFA PvP for bringing a bunch of new players and keep population.

Oh thats just for the special cases

[Protunia 735]

Oh thats just for the special cases

Oh I saw that happen to 'alot' of people who came from freedom when Epic Opened you don't have to tell me.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Protunia

[Bernd 0]

Home servers was a bad idea and was only put in because rolf tought it would bring back many old players who missed them. But he was wrong. Back then there were no freedom servers. So all the players had to play there and of course the play style was also different. People are too used to the freedom servers nowadays(im not saying its a bad thing). And also there are too much servers for too few players. While i dont play on epic anymore i dont see what is the point of them. To catch up safely for PvP? Okay but its much much easier to do it on epic anyway, and all it does is just generates less pvp. As smejack said home servers breed freedomers who go there because they find the grind and skills etc... harder on the other servers and they also have no intention to PvP or outright hate PvP. That is just wrong and even with the ore caps and everything its still not working.

I don't see how them sitting in the home servers offering a deed to raid, instead in one of the 5 megadeeds on elevation generates more PvP, when "they even outright hate PvP".

Then of course these players complain when their deed gets destroyed by a scenario or get raided, so rolf puts in huge nerfs for home servers ruining the PvP for the raiders and those who want to do PvP. Now not everyone who lives on the home servers are like this but the majority are.

Why do people even have to go to the Homservers to raid? Why is it always the Homservers fault, when people don't raid on Elevation?

Edited August 24, 2012 by Bernd

[Protunia 735]

I don't see how them sitting in the home servers offering a deed to raid, instead in one of the 5 megadeeds on elevation generates more PvP, when "they even outright hate PvP".

Why do people even have to go to the Homservers to raid? Why is it always the Homservers fault, when people don't raid on Elevation?

They have to blame something for the lack of interest in the types of games they play.

[KalinMenajin 100]

Always the same arguments that sum up to PvP VS PvE...

You guys have derailed this thread completely and 80% of this discussion should have been moved.

I may be new to the community but I can't help wondering... -Why haven't you made a discussion thread about server types and mechanics all this time?

If it's constructive debate that you want to have, why did you wait for the 1st chance of whining and grumping to jump in?

Be that as it may, I'm a FFA PvPer at heart just because I can't imagine a sandbox (or sandbox-like) game where I can't do as I please.

I'm not an agressive person, but I want to have the freedom to chose.

For me Epic servers where a clear choice. Elevation on the other hand seems like a playground for the priviliged.

Having played over 46 mmo titles over a course of 14 years, I have to say -I like the setup.

But it has a flaw in the core of it: there must be a relatively safe kingdom and a frontier zone. Nothing else.

Once the enemy manages to conquer the frontier defences then they can enter the Kingdom and try to raid it.

When you have ppl who pay with actual coin for anything good, they just won't jeopardise it. It's like applying permadeath. The bigger the risks -the less action there will be.

But the fault goes both ways. I haven't seen an organized Kingdom yet that supports a frontier mentality.

IMO, Rolf should simplify the game and server choices and the community should embrace the Champion feature.

Support those who live and fight in the frontier with items and provisions. That way they won't have to build farms and mines and all that jazz.

All they have to do is make forts and defend them. Remove deeds from frontier and use war tokens that control an area. That would effectively make the frontier a natural PvP zone. The ppl fighting there wouldn't fear to lose their special items (see sidenote for that) since the Kingdom would assign new to them with respect to their battle rank.

Everyone would be happy. You want to be a peaceful farmer? Stay inside the Kingdom and contribute taxes in form of items for those providing you this safety. You want to PvP? Move to the frontier to live on a narrow (and possibly ugly) fort, defend your Kingdom and if you're good at it, you'll be rewarded items to use in your fight.

Hell, I'll put it into an example story to make it easier to imagine...

<My name is Jacob. I live in Jen Kellon Kingdom at the outskirts of "whatever" town. I am a farmer and one of the best cooks this land has seen. I run a tavern. I also sell horses. I have a brother named Killjoy who's fighting the war at the frontier. Today the King's men passed by for the weekly tax towards the war efforts. I gave them 50 meals and 4 horses and a note for my brother... "Stay safe and hang on bro. I miss you, visit when u can"

My brother used to live with me. But since he went to the frontier, he may have forgotten some of the old skills (he used to be a good miner) but he has reached Fighting Sklills that I could never get. All he needs is support from us, food, horses, armor and weapons... All the stuff that he has to replace everytime he bleeds for us. I tried to talk him out of it. "Life is good here for us, why do you want to leave?" I said.

"Because life is a fragile thing bro, and someone has to defend it" he told me.

The King and his guard often asign missions to the frontier fighters. Last time Killjoy was awarded a noloc ring for defending an outpost.

I hope that will keep my brother safe a bit longer....>

I don't think I need to keep up the stupid story, u get what I mean.

Promised Sidenote: I see ppl toiling and gathering high QL stuff, getting PvP gear and enchants and when the time comes to PvP, wear a simple QL 40 chain and weapon so that they won't jeopardise their Ql 70 AoSP60 WoA 73 pants. But why did they make it in the 1st place? Raiders come with a stolen rowboat and wearing leather crap, carrying a hatchet and 5 ropes (hint) -and the alliance folk that are supposed to defend the kingdom are hiding in their cozy farms! Some even far away from raider routes.

What is the idea behind this? Why didn't the "frontier" elevation ppl stop these 5 men from entering their Kingdom? Because they didn't threaten the elevation super forts? Then what is their role? Why do most ppl hide and logout when the 4-5 rugged raiders come? Any child with 30FS and a good armor can take them on.

Yes I know, blah blah they got 70+ FS blah blah they will kill you and steal your gear blah blah use it against us blah blah leave it for the high FS ppl to handle blah but -"I can't run there right now, I must finish grinding CAS, almost 50 now"

Evidently, I use too many examples. Maybe it's not a good thing. But in those details the flaw clears up.

It costs too much time and money to PvP. Safety should cost something too. And each map should have a reason of existance. Period.

Edited August 24, 2012 by KalinMenajin

[GravityDog 41]

Too much High Fantasy. Driving a wedge between me and wanting to play Wurm at all.

The Wurm should eat all artifacts and then eat Valrei, banish and severely weaken the gods, destroy all existing Avatars and then eat itself, leaving all the weird high fantasy stuff in the past.

+1