Aggresive Animal Pathing

[Alyeska 2,621]

Templars are supposed to protect deed owners against hostile animals (examine one, it says something about "decided to protect this place"). If hostile animals do not step on deeds with templars, it means the owner of the deed is safe. If there is an animal lurking around their deed that they want dead, they can lure it to the templar to get it killed. If someone is being attacked by an animal, they can run onto the deed to have the templar save them. If the person who owns the deed wants meat but can't kill the local spiders, he can bring them to his deed and butcher them. It allows deed owners to protect themselves and others against stuff they really cannot kill, while the local wildlife stays intact. It protects deeds from the big bad champion trolls that just sit there all day smashing your fences and killing your templar over and over again.

Except for the people who use their deeds solely as a corpse farm that functions without sticking any effort into it, how does this negatively impact anyone?

[Ruger 610]

Seems like some back door way of getting trolls to stop coming on deed. I think it works just fine. The argument that the animal shouldnt be just running into its death. Well it does it all the time when it aggro's onto me or anyone else. The creatures dont have a brain to go "oh george look a guard over there we should not go here". If they did they would go "hey george look theres a fighter with dragon scale and a huge sword, we probably shouldnt go there" and they would run from us rather then aggroing us.

To say there is no hunting is false at least on Deliverance, Exodus and Celebration. I have hunted on all three servers in the past month for atleast a day each.

[Alyeska 2,621]

Seems like some back door way of getting trolls to stop coming on deed. I think it works just fine. The argument that the animal shouldnt be just running into its death. Well it does it all the time when it aggro's onto me or anyone else.

I think there is some kind of AI detection where it will not agro a really good fighter. I've seen plenty of crocodiles, bears, scorpions ignore or even run away from myself before. Either way, you could just say animals are scared of spirits, if their inteligence in that regard is an issue.

[John 254]

I'm on a ceeertain PvP server and every five minutes a monster steps onto my deed. It varies from the oh-so-common greenish troll to the rare wolf. I'm getting spammed, so please.

Edited August 15, 2012 by John

[Kadore 926]

Change PvE guard fees to 2s per month minimum. You get 1 guard and additional guards are same as now. Change the path finding AI for non-chasing animals so they avoid the first five tiles outside a village (the default perimeter). Aggro will chase a toon onto a deed and the guards do their thing, otherwise aggro stays away from a deed. If you choose not to have guards, then aggro is free to do whatever they want, example trolls bashing your fences.

Players are safe, CodeClub gets revenue, meat factories are gimped.

I thinking how cool a Pig pen (pig bulk storage barn) would be for making meat and leathers on a deed.

This is about at flawed as the concept of raising ciggerette prices to stop people from smoking.

[Pashka 707]

Originally this started out about any animal, I thought. Now it isn't really any animal but the animals that will bring fight skill or a certain lairs spawns. Suddenly it doesn't seem like it is to keep trolls from bashing or wolves or other small aggros from dying but just a few animals. Not sounding near as good as it was before, at least to me.

[joedobo 1,187]

This is about at flawed as the concept of raising ciggerette prices to stop people from smoking.

I don't get your analogy because nothing about this thread is additive. True, making an addictive substance cost more isn't going to stop people from craving. By the way, its more about taxing people who will pay anything for thier fix then it is about helping them to quit.

You should try a little harder, I'll do what you apparently can't. First off I believe in making players happy. Also, sticking a sock in the mouth's of those "I know how you should play" players.

- If mobs don't go on deed thier will be no reason to buy deed guards anymore and that hurts CodeClub's revenue.

- If this where implemented a measly one guard would guaranteed safty. The small price increase of 1s is because you normally need more guards to achieve something similar.

- From a game balance perspective, my suggestion shows that deed guards will continue to do what they have always done. We are adding a new benefit that prevents mobs from getting too close to a deed. When you add a new benefit their should be something to balance it or justify why the player should get that benefit.

Lastly, I don't care if the 1s per month guard where to give the benefits.

Edited August 16, 2012 by joedobo

[dipse 231]

+1 Please put it back to how it was before except they should follow players on deed.

Edited August 16, 2012 by dipse

[Alyeska 2,621]

Originally this started out about any animal, I thought. Now it isn't really any animal but the animals that will bring fight skill or a certain lairs spawns. Suddenly it doesn't seem like it is to keep trolls from bashing or wolves or other small aggros from dying but just a few animals. Not sounding near as good as it was before, at least to me.

It is still about all the agros. The example with lair spawned animals was to show a counter-argument to "but they will respawn anyways", as simply not all animals will endlessly respawn when killed. And of course, I'd be very pleased if trolls would stop randomly walking onto my deed to release my horses, without having my guards kill everything in sight.

[Vroomfondel 1,128]

This thread reminds me of when tower guards killed all aggros in the range of the tower Got to be a real problem then, as the high ql towers had quite a range of influence. Rolf fixed that so you had to call for the guards before they would kill anything.

But the Spirit Templars are different, because there is already an option to tell the Templar not to kill aggros. If any player has chosen to have all aggros killed that is their right as owner of a deed, and we should not be trying to take that away. We've lost one deed perk recently, I don't want to see more taken away.

And remember, Rolf made the mistake of letting Avatars on the Freedom Isles for a while before, and a coding error could bring them back. Even if it was only a short while, you'd want any Templar nearby to help you, as Tower Guards cannot stand up to Avatars at all. Templars can at least keep an Avatar busy till you can contact some Mercenary grade fighters to help you.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Vroomfondel

[Xallo 2,599]

Personally, I don't see it as a right for owners of "Deeds" to have the ability to extinct a hunting area simply because of the way Rolf coded the game. Yes, Deed owners should have power, but the ability to kill hundreds of animals and harvest chunks of meat monthly while the villagers are offline is just unfair for everyone else hunting for their fair share. There needs to be a good balance between different methods of playing, and giving too much of an advantage to one particular side does more harm than good. As I have said before, the changes seen by fixing these paths would do for the most part nothing for an active village as they can lure animals onto the deed for killing.

I honestly still don't see how people can be so against the idea of having a much more fair system that can only benefit the entire game.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Xallo

[Vroomfondel 1,128]

Again with the word extinct. They respawn as quickly as they are killed, so how can they go extinct? I get the feeling it's more a case of too many villages close together. Crowded areas are low on creatures and more vacant areas have lots of creatures. Villages in my area have their Templars killing all too, but I still can find just about anything within 5 minutes of my village. That's because I'm in the NE of Inde, where there are few villages at all. To the south I always hear complaints of not finding anything to hunt, and when I go there I see villages next to each other for miles.

[Alyeska 2,621]

This thread reminds me of when tower guards killed all aggros in the range of the tower Got to be a real problem then, as the high ql towers had quite a range of influence. Rolf fixed that so you had to call for the guards before they would kill anything.

But the Spirit Templars are different, because there is already an option to tell the Templar not to kill aggros. If any player has chosen to have all aggros killed that is their right as owner of a deed, and we should not be trying to take that away. We've lost one deed perk recently, I don't want to see more taken away.

And remember, Rolf made the mistake of letting Avatars on the Freedom Isles for a while before, and a coding error could bring them back. Even if it was only a short while, you'd want any Templar nearby to help you, as Tower Guards cannot stand up to Avatars at all. Templars can at least keep an Avatar busy till you can contact some Mercenary grade fighters to help you.

It is exactly what I was thinking, it is no different than the guard towers being changed so you have to ask them for help. While you're right that you can set guards to ignore agros, that means they won't help at all, not even if you bring the animal to the deed and want them to help (unless you own the deed and quickly set the guard to attack). If a player chooses to have all animals on his deed killed that is completely acceptable, but becuase animals move around, animals that are ofdeed now will be ondeed the next moment, so eventually, a lot of animals that were not ondeed when spawned will die to the templar. It would seem reasonable to me that animals don't do that unless provoked, especially since you wouldn't require protection if the animal isn't interested in eating you in the first place.

Whilst animals respawn, like a lot of people confirmed, people in the (insert wind direction here) always complain about no hunting becuase there are lots of deeds there. Those people complaining cannot affect what people in other deeds have their templars set to do, and you cannot reasonably ask them to cross the entire server or disband their deed and move becuase of a flawed mechanic. Hunting should be equal, or at least more equal, throughout the map. Not just in one half of the map becuase the other half has more towns, that isn't fair. Especially since you have no control over the entire region you settle in. You cannot prevent someone deeding next to you and setting their templar for protection, and you can't keep moving everytime that happens.

Even if Rolf makes a mistake and adds drakespirits or nogumps again, you could run to your deed if they are attacking you and your templar will help you. There would be no change to that part, just that the nogump/avatar/drakespirit wouldn't stroll to your deed and start reorganizing your deed layout while you are offline. I'd say that's a plus

I still see no negative impact for anybody, except for the villages that are purely founded to become meat farms whilst their owners are offline. This is what I see in this suggestion;

+More wildlife, even in crowded areas

+No trolls on your deed, liberating your horses while you sleep

+Templars still protect villagers and deed owners against baddies

+The option still exists for people to use their templar for meat, but they would need to put some effort into it

+The option for people to protect travellers without their templars killing everything nearby (I dont see towers as a real option unless Rolf fixes where you can call them through locked gates)

- Deeds with nothing but a templar on them to harvest meat without effort would be rendered fairly useless.

Those deed owners would have to start putting effort into getting meat. Alternatively, they could fire the templar and use the money to buy meat from other players (which would be a tiny boost to the economy). For the game, it would only lose money from exactly those "meatfarm" deeds. 'Real' villages that require the templar for protection would most likely not remove it. I can even imagine some places might hire a templar if it was adjusted (I know I would ).

I don't understand why it was changed in the first place, animals used to avoid deeds, but suddenly they seem to go for a suicide-bomber style attack on the local villages.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Alyeska

[Wulfgar 1,119]

But the Spirit Templars are different, because there is already an option to tell the Templar not to kill aggros. If any player has chosen to have all aggros killed that is their right as owner of a deed, and we should not be trying to take that away. We've lost one deed perk recently, I don't want to see more taken away.

Noone is trying to remove a deed perk, its about fixing a bug. Animals didn't use to walk voluntarily to their own death by spirit templar, it was a bug introduced with one of the many animal pathing "fixes". As always happens when Rolf doesn't fix a bug for months or years, people grow accustomed to the bug and think of it as a feature. It should not be a feature to have aggro's walking mindlessly onto deeds with templars, and its about time this bug got fixed.

[EliasTheCrimson 348]

Aggros used to avoid deeds back in the day, which was a behavior that made a lot more sense than the suicidal mindset of today's critters. Animals would seem smarter and more lifelike if they had the slightest bit of self-preservation instinct.

[Protunia 735]

Noone is trying to remove a deed perk, its about fixing a bug. Animals didn't use to walk voluntarily to their own death by spirit templar, it was a bug introduced with one of the many animal pathing "fixes". As always happens when Rolf doesn't fix a bug for months or years, people grow accustomed to the bug and think of it as a feature. It should not be a feature to have aggro's walking mindlessly onto deeds with templars, and its about time this bug got fixed.

I don't think its a bug at all and if I remember more than just trolls used to bash deed walls after he changed things to do this.

In other words its supposed to be this way if it was not the mobs that bash walls on deeds would not have started doing it at all.

Also it is not hurting anyone as they respawn rather quickly for more kills somewhere else.

Notice how trolls still bash deed walls??? that could have been changed, but was not which tells me mobs coming to deeds is supposed to happen.

What ever used to be along time ago is now changed to what is today for a reason.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Protunia

[Libertha 145]

Tthis is what the deed guards are for, to protect your land.

What is there to protect from on the freedom servers? The only thing i can come up with is hostile mobs.

Let the guards do their job, protecting the deed from unwanted creatures who move a bit to close for people their liking.

It would be silly to simply implement brains again into all the hostiles, "oh hey wait a minute, if i step on this tile here i'll get smacked up and used for meat!"

Keep it as it is. if you want to hunt, search for grounds to do so, its part of the hunt.

[Hussars 511]

+More wildlife, even in crowded areas

+No trolls on your deed, liberating your horses while you sleep

+Templars still protect villagers and deed owners against baddies

+The option still exists for people to use their templar for meat, but they would need to put some effort into it

+The option for people to protect travellers without their templars killing everything nearby (I dont see towers as a real option unless Rolf fixes where you can call them through locked gates)

To address these in order:

- False, it will be the same at the end of the day as players will be killing the creatures in place of guards. 10 dead animals is 10 dead animals. I will accept that there will be more FS gained though.

- Possibly, unless someone hunting (or just wandering past) is chased on deed by the troll.

- If they are only on-deed by being lead on to deed, fence your deed off and lock the gates, no aggro mob threat at all and no need for templars.

- True (and while I agree with this, it does impose "I think you should play like this" on others)

- See point 3 above

All that said, you could ask the deed owner to turn off the aggro hunting some times, like if they know they'll be offline for more than a few hours. I do this on some of my deeds for my neighbors already. At least one of those deeds I have even set a schedule as a form of compromise since they wanted it off all the time, and I honestly just felt it was a simple enough process.

So I say no to imposed playstyle change, and Yes to improve communication skills.

[Kraljtatov 34]

What we don't need are selfish features to fix broken features that should have been fixed in the first place.

IIRC the animal pathing update was for exactly that: allowing animals to wander on-deed. It's not a bug just because you don't agree with it, and that goes both ways.

As far as trolls bashing goes we do not need even more pointless updates to counter this. It's pointless to implement this suggestion and have trolls bashing invalidated than it is to simply remove trolls bashing.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Kraljtatov

[Xallo 2,599]

What we don't need are selfish features to fix broken features that should have been fixed in the first place.

IIRC the animal pathing update was for exactly that: allowing animals to wander on-deed. It's not a bug just because you don't agree with it, and that goes both ways.

As far as trolls bashing goes we do not need even more pointless updates to counter this. It's pointless to implement this suggestion and have trolls bashing invalidated than it is to simply remove trolls bashing.

This suggestion was never about trolls bashing. It's just a side-effect/fix to the problem, which in my opinion, warrants this change even more.

[bp1986 173]

IMO, revert it back to the way things worked in the olden days. Animals would "learn" where the deed starts. In the beginning, a templar would get lots of kills then the population would learn where not to move to. At this point, the animal would stop at the edge of the deed even when agroed. The way to combat this would be to lead it across the corner.

A templar is protection, nothing more. It is not a hunter, it is not your personal servant, it is simply there to protect the deed (not you) from enemys. And it is defignitly not there to supply you with meat and animal parts... honestly, I would like to see the templar simply eat a corpse that it killed.

Edited August 17, 2012 by bp1986

[joedobo 1,187]

+More wildlife, even in crowded areas

+No trolls on your deed, liberating your horses while you sleep

+Templars still protect villagers and deed owners against baddies

+The option still exists for people to use their templar for meat, but they would need to put some effort into it

+The option for people to protect travellers without their templars killing everything nearby (I dont see towers as a real option unless Rolf fixes wh...

To address these in order:

- False, it will be the same at the end of the day as players will be killing the creatures in place of guards. 10 dead animals is 10 dead animals. I will accept that there will be more FS gained though.

- Possibly, unless someone hunting (or just wandering past) is chased on deed by the troll.

- If they are only on-deed by being lead on to deed, fence your deed off and lock the gates, no aggro mob threat at all and no need for templars.

- True (and while I agree with this, it does impose "I think you should play like this" on others)

- See point 3 above

All that said, you could ask the deed owner to turn off the aggro hunting some times, like if they know they'll be offline for more than a few hours. I do this on some of my deeds for my neighbors already. At least one of those deeds I have even set a schedule as a form of compromise since they wanted it off all the time, and I honestly just felt it was a simple enough process.

So I say no to imposed playstyle change, and Yes to improve communication skills.

1. I interpreted Alyeska's comment as meaning more stuff for players to hunt.

3. Fences may work now but Wurm Devs have a history of implementing aggressive fence bashing mobs at their whim. Undermining lairs, around Deli's start where folks tried penning the red dragon are two examples that come to mined right away.

I can even imagine some places might hire a templar if it was adjusted (I know I would ).

Me too.

Because players tend to put fences on the very outside edge of a deed, the no pathinging mechanic should extend out a few tiles away from village tiles. I think the minimum five perimeter tiles are prefect, but nothing more then that.

[atazs 965]

About empty deeds in middle of steppes:

[19:43:13] You enter Death To The Steppe.

A token in the middle of steppe no buildings..

Mayor is: deathtosteppe. Obviously this whole deed is here to grief and annjoy others and something should be done.

+1 to this

Edited August 22, 2012 by atazs

[shadowblasta 142]

I think the point is that Spirit Templars are killing the aggros that AI is making them wander in an empty lot with the guard protecting nothing and just littering the floor with corpses that you can not use at all except for the mayor who may not be active anymore, It is annoying to have to go up and down the highway burying all the dead bodies from Uncurtious hunter i also have to do it for random templars so it doesnt look like a desease ridden battlefield in my area

[Kamikazifly 70]

... Just so long as we don't accidentally go back to the situation where aggros refuse to follow onto deed and you have to drag over corners.

My ideal scenario would be that the templar would say something such as "begone evil <name of aggro mob here>!" when the mob stepped into perimeter and then the mob would not step on deed. This would mean that if somebody is online and still wants to use the templar to help kill creatures for meat, they know it is there and can make the effort to go out and bait it in.

This part "Just so long as we don't accidentally go back to the situation where aggros refuse to follow onto deed".

When I was a new player, the spiders stopped chasing me exactly where the templar's boundaries were. I could NOT LEAVE MY DEED. This was fixed, and the animals no longer understood that a deed was protected by spirit templars.

Animals should not understand these laws of man. They should obey the laws of nature. They have no King!

Functionally, high fs players want to hunt more.

Theoretically, complaining that having other players pay for templars is regarded as an EXPLOIT!?

How about we ask to fix the 'actual' problem? The AI for creatures is numbskull at best.

Mythical creatures:

• Trolls are sentient and should understand they are about to fight a templar and proceed. (Cause they know they will win.)
  
• Spiders hide and attack when they have the advantage, irl. They always jump in fangs first and use their legs to grapple their prey. They bite repeatedly, then jump away to see how the poison is affecting their prey.
  
• Scorpions dont attack, but maintain a completely defensive stance irl. They use their claws to hold an opponent at bay, and use their stinger to deal the killing blow.
  
• Unicorns are supposed to be shy, and attempt to hide from view when discovered. They should be hunted, not just walked right up to.
  
• Goblins should hunt in groups and scavenge anything and everything they can figure out a use for. They should wear pieces of armor they find and wield weapons they find. I could see how a goblin would like to wear jewelry if found and show its friends a gem it took from a dead player's rotted corpse pile.
  
• Dragons should climb over walls and houses, and knock down walls with ease - just by accident. Spirit Templars dont attack dragons... why?
  

Animals/Mammals:

• Animals/mammals are smart in real life. They seek out humanized areas to eat our trash, left overs, and can become aggressive when they are starving. Often snatching a large snack and running away with it.
  
• Bears seek food, but will run away if they think they are going to die. I could see how a bear should run up to a deed and snatch a corpse to take away to eat elsewhere.
  
• Wolves hunt in packs and swarm their victim. Solo wolves scavenge, and would try to sneak onto a deed to scavenge for food.
  
• Rats sneak around, but are quick to run/hide when they realize they are seen.
  
• Cats sneak up and get ready to pounce, knocking down their victims - then clamping their mouths over their victims mouths to cause suffocation.
  

Non mob types:

• Pigs should sniff out truffles and eat mushrooms. Pigs in a forest should be able to survive on their own. They can smell anything edible far better than any dog could.
  
• Chickens should be able to free range and eat to stay alive in this way.
  
• Pheasants already do what chickens should.
  
• Horses should mostly travel in herds, with a leader Mustang guiding them.
  
• Cows are mostly dumb, and they act correcly in game. imo.
  

In conclusion, I don't think you guys actually want the nerfs you are asking for. But merely want a better solution.

Edited August 27, 2012 by Kamikazifly