Revert All Of The Unpopular Updates

[Tinkerer 107]

...

Each change will either make all of the people happy some of the time, or some of the people all of the time, but you'll never make all of the people happy all of the time.

...

Perhaps a little more applicable when changed to:

Each change he makes will either make most of the people unhappy most of the time, or some of the people some of the time, but he hasn't quite yet managed to make all of the people unhappy all of the time - but there's always next time to try.

[Madt 1,178]

The thing that gets me is the 'have to deal with it' part I think was mentioned in the OP.

We shouldn't be faced with a bad update and then be told 'you'll just have to deal with it'.

In the real world if something is unpopular it gets changed. (See: Mass Effect 3 ending)

[Kyrmius 188]

I'm getting sick of hearing this. Sure, Rolf is the creator and owner, but if it was up to him alone this game would be dead. There's the team of (volunteer) developers and moderators that help designing this game, and of course the player base that keeps the game together and helps funding it with their payments. Without this, the game wouldn't be where it is now. Completely ignoring the suggestions of these people and instead adding things that upset the majority while saying "Rolf can do what he want, so f*** ya'll", will most likely harm the future of this project.

That said, I don't know many other (popular) Sandbox games that are like Wurm. Maybe you do, but I'm not entierly sure how for example taking away deed light, destroying tunnel systems or massacring cattle herds, which contrary to how Wurm has been since about forever and I'm pretty sure I haven't seen most of these things in other games, turn this into a clone. Wurm is imho one of the greatest Sandbox games and it's a unique kind. Most of the ideas we get that enhance game play and contents barely find themselves cloned from other games. They don't need to be added now, but why instead take steps backwards by removing features that keeps people happy? Rather than listening to the playerbase and approach their ideas and suggestions to at least find a middle thing in this, they get mostly ignored.

Yes this is Rolfs dream, but this dream won't fulfill itself if there's nobody to help funding, developing or in the end wanting to play it.

tldr;

You're correct. This isn't just Rolf's game or just Rolf's and the Devs sandbox.... but that doesn't matter in 2012 unfortunately. Just like the phrase "The Customer is always right" doesn't matter anymore. I wish that wasn't the case. I really do. This is just a symptom of a much larger real world issue that I doubt will go away now. Rolf is doing what all modern business owners do.

The suggestions forums here server the same purpose here as they do everywhere else... a place for Customers to complain and vent. Maybe even once in a great while to get a new idea.

Rolf knows there is almost nowhere else for us to go to find a MMO like Wurm.

Soapbox version:

This isn't necessarily Rolf's fault you know... let me explain.

Our whole world's current business attitude in 2012 is that the if the Customer complains then ignore it; The business belongs to the owners so to hell with what customers want... Owners TELL Customers what the customer wants ... and the Customers listen and mostly obey... THIS IS OUR CURRENT BUSINESS REALITY. Customers have been slowly groomed to accept this mindset by the business owners for a couple hundred years now; with not much success when it started of course, but now the "snowball is huge and racing down the hill" so to speak. Now us Customers are very compliant and well trained. No one can stop it now. It's apart of our world culture.

Don't believe me? Go attend a University MBA program in the United States right now... for the most part that is what is being taught, and what has been taught for at least a decade now. Go watch how Customers are treated in shops and malls, how Customers are treated by their own Governments.

Still don't believe me? Watch how some of our best and brightest Players right here in Wurm do things, and read what they say on these forums. They have proven this point many times and that is why I have lost my temper on a number of occasions in threads here. It's even why I quit last fall.

I am not mad at you Kamill... I am mad with you. I want to see Wurm be managed so it's more Customer friendly. I want to see Wurm be split into Two Clients... one PvE and one PvP... both developed and cared for so both groups of players get what they want and Wurm thrives.

Ahh but modern Business says Rolf don't have to. It's a sorry state of affairs culturally and socially with our species now though, this world view that believes customers are just whiners and don't have a right to decide what they want, and complaining here will do no good. The "Fix" would require a major shift in point of views and attitudes world wide, and Wurm is just a MMO afterall.

You know what really sucks? Talking about this on a forum like this, or elsewhere in real world, pointing out where we have gone wrong in our thinking... and having many people calling me an idiot and telling me to shut up... that I am being niave. All because they own Stock or are a business person. They like the current situation and want to see it continue. My own Son did it to me. What a kick in the gut...He is so blind as to where this will lead, just like most people now, and I was so dumb to think he thought as I do. It made me cry to be honest. He has so assimilated what he was taught at college.

Rolf has almost no real world reason to change how He is doing things.He is just another business owner. He's just a regular guy. If it is his fault, then it's the whole world's fault. Very few people see this issue as a problem, most will defend the current world's screwed up attitide as "good" and right". I say it's business brand lawful evil but what do I know. We can only blame ourselves... we let this happen.

That's why I hold almost no hope that Rolf and our Devs, or any MMO Dev team, is going to actually read the Suggestions forum, or listen closely to Customers anytime soon. They have been taught they don't have to anymore. MMOs did seem to remember how to treat Customers well when they first started, but that was because back then the Devs actually played their own MMOs. They were Customer too back then. For the most part that is nolonger true. Devs just create and run a business, they don't usually become it's Customers as well (just like Restaurant workers don't eat where they work). MMOs are just another business now.

So why should Rolf do anything different than he does right now? If he did most people would call him an idiot.

Edited August 12, 2012 by Kyrmius

[Klaa 4,872]

Then why did you make a post? The purpose of this thread is to state which changes you did not like. Take a stand and speak up, or please, at least stay out of the way.

The OP of the thread seemed more along the lines of voicing an opinion, which is merely what I am doing. Take it or leave it. Nor do I have a problem with considering the views of others, especially if they grossly contradict my own views.

Over the years Ive seen many changes to Wurm for various reasons. Some of which I personally considered to be bad. Ill admit a select few of those in the long term proved to be beneficial. Nor am I innocent of being caught up in flamewars on past changes.

Overall theres the main problem of how does one accurately measure the popularity of a change. Determining the need for a change is a whole nother ballgame. Forum polls are probably the least intrusive measure (I swear every major election year I start getting urges to go out and kill pollsters); however, does that truely reflect the majority of the playerbase? One could spout stereotypes such as the quiet content player or the vocal malcontent whiner all day to little affect.

[Kamill 61]

I wouldn't call you an idiot Kyrmius because I can agree on some of your points. I can apply what you said to most common MMOs these days, one other great example of developers not listening to what people want is Valve & Team Fortress 2. I've stopped playing it now after 4 years because all the changes they are making are not comprehensible anymore, most of them never were. But no matter how much people complained on the Steam forums nothing changed. Though I have great hopes for coming GW2, because after 7 years of GW1 I know that ArenaNet does listen to their customers, and they even play their games as well. I have already preordered it and will probably spend a lot of time on it which will be taken off from Wurm. I'll probably return to playing after some time like I always did, and who knows, maybe things will have changed around here until then..

[dipse 231]

I support basically support all these supposedly unpopular changes. There are almost 3000 players of this game and in each compliant thread it is basically the same bunch of people complaining each time, often thinking they speak for everyone else as well. It is very difficult to truly tell if the majority of players support or do not support a change because the majority never comment on it. As in most communities a vocal minority rule here.

Edited August 12, 2012 by dipse

[spellcast 983]

It is very difficult to truly tell if the majority of players support or do not support a change because the majority never comment on it. As in most communities a vocal minority rule here.

Someone (othob perhaps?) made a suggestion a long time back that rolf include a simple poll in the game that covered 2-3 basic changes that he was thinking about making and have it pop up the first time a player logged in, so that he could get feedback from everyone, not just those players who frequent the forums. I thought it was a great idea then, and i still do. Having one poll a month, with maybe 3 questions about game changes that are being considered or have been in place for at least 2 months would give him some accurate feedback, particularly if the poll only went to prem accts or could somehow be limited to one per IP. (to eliminate people having dozens of non-prem toons to use to mess with the poll results)

On the topic at hand, rolf actually does listen to some feedback, moreso than other games i've played, but again, you cant please everyone, and your 'worst update ever' might be something that other people really like, tho i have to admit i would shed no tears if the tunneling critters and bashing trolls were changed back. On the other hand, I actually sort of like the lamp change, call me strange if you want to. Horses going backwards as fast as forwards doesn't really affect me, i never go anywhere on horseback, so i have no opinion on it.

[Tich 1,389]

On the other hand, I actually sort of like the lamp change, call me strange if you want to.

and i thought it was just me...

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

If I had to choose between having some changes I did not like, and having the game cater to "the customer is always right" .... then ... I'll actually take bashing trolls, tunneling cavebugs, lamps that need refilling, losing my pet bears as a usable feature, and whatever else has happened so far. Most of the features I had the biggest issues with, he has backed off on already. The others we can continue to lobby for on a case by case basis. Rolf actually DOES revert changes when the players get PO'd enough. To the best of my knowledge though, we are not losing population and in fact are slowly continuing to grow. Slow growth is fine by me. If we start losing more players than we gain, I am sure Rolf will notice.

The reason there is no other game like Wurm is because no one else is stubborn enough to resist "common sense" on how to make a game. Everyone else caters to what they think will be most ""popular". We have enough of those kind of games already.

Although its possible to cross the line and we all have our breakpoint. I will say if he ever again enables PvP raids on PvE homesteads some crazy night of partying, then I'll be the first one to break out the pitchforks and flaming tar. And it doesn;t mean I won't have my days of severe crankiness with the game. I am all for people speaking out against changes they feel hurt the game. It may have taken a half year but Rolf eventually changed the tunneling cavebug issue when we protested it long enough and hard enough. But overall I prefer this game NOT be run on "sensible business practices" where "the customer is always right" and anything "unpopular" gets changed. We have a ton of games out there that show where that road leads. If someone wanted to make a game, just-like-Wurm-but-better, I am sure they could. No one seems to want to. Their idea of "just like Wurm but better" is either another couple dozen Minecraft clones, or PvP-centric games like Salem, H&H, Mortal Online, Darkfall, et al.

And I think the fact that we all know Rolf WANTS a PvP-centric game, but that Wurm is NOT a PvP-centric game, is proof that sometimes ... the majority DOES get what it wants most.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Brash_Endeavors

[Joanavon 553]

If I had to choose between having some changes I did not like, and having the game cater to "the customer is always right" .... then ... I'll actually take bashing trolls, tunneling cavebugs, lamps that need refilling, losing my pet bears as a usable feature, and whatever else has happened so far. Most of the features I had the biggest issues with, he has backed off on already. The others we can continue to lobby for on a case by case basis. Rolf actually DOES revert changes when the players get PO'd enough. To the best of my knowledge though, we are not losing population and in fact are slowly continuing to grow. Slow growth is fine by me. If we start losing more players than we gain, I am sure Rolf will notice.

The reason there is no other game like Wurm is because no one else is stubborn enough to resist "common sense" on how to make a game. Everyone else caters to what they think will be most ""popular". We have enough of those kind of games already.

Although its possible to cross the line and we all have our breakpoint. I will say if he ever again enables PvP raids on PvE homesteads some crazy night of partying, then I'll be the first one to break out the pitchforks and flaming tar. And it doesn;t mean I won't have my days of severe crankiness with the game. But overall I prefer this game NOT be run on "sensible business practices" -- we have a ton of games out there that show where that road leads. If someone wanted to make a game, just-like-Wurm-but-better, I am sure they could. No one seems to want to. Their idea of "just like Wurm but better" is either another couple dozen Minecraft clones, or PvP-centric games like Salem, H&H, Mortal Online, Darkfall, et al.

And I think the fact that we all know Rolf WANTS a PvP-centric game, but that Wurm is NOT a PvP-centric game, is proof that sometimes ... we actually get what we want most.

Not even Epic is really a PvP-Centric game. regardless of where, the vast, vast majority of time and energy is spent doing completely non-pvp related things because those things are what the games centered around. Even war waits for them.

[Klaa 4,872]

If its a quick poll and didnt show every single day, aye I could go with that.

I love full on pvp, and I miss being able to pickpocket people like one could do in Ultima Online. On the flipside one can raid houses in Wurm. In UO one had to wait for the house to collapse from player neglect.

People would wait 24/7, pulling shifts, for this to happen

Edited August 13, 2012 by Klaa

[Gaeron 551]

I'm getting sick of hearing this. Sure, Rolf is the creator and owner, but if it was up to him alone this game would be dead. There's the team of (volunteer) developers and moderators that help designing this game, and of course the player base that keeps the game together and helps funding it with their payments. Without this, the game wouldn't be where it is now. Completely ignoring the suggestions of these people and instead adding things that upset the majority while saying "Rolf can do what he want, so f*** ya'll", will most likely harm the future of this project.

<retalitory rant>

Thats right, he is the creator and owner of the game and its his liveliehood and future, not yours. Would it be dead, I don't think so. It would be different and may have a somewhat different demographic as the player base but I don't believe it would have died.

Rolf does not ignore his player base, in fact he is one of the better developers for listening, sometimes too good at listening as many have complained about He will pick and choose what he implements and this happens with line with his value system not yours or mine. At times its maddening but at the end of the day it remains his decision. I suggest you learn to live with it because its not going to change.

As soon as I hear "majority" I wonder is it the whining/shouting/screaming kingdom chat majority or the whining/shouting/screaming forum majority or the whining/shouting/screaming IRC majority or the whining/shouting/screaming emailling majority or maybe the quiet get on with it in-game majority. Anyone who claims to speak for the majority should know better because they don't.

</retalitory rant>

Back to the OP though

Generally for me any change which makes things take more time or makes a process massively more complex (ie takes more time) is bad. Things that allow me to achieve things faster is good but up to a point. Some things have to take a long time to remain in proportion within the game. Things that add to the convenience of the game are good while those that make me jump through hoops to achieve something are bad. Sudden and significant game changing updates are bad. There have been times when Rolf has dropped something on us and everyone has facepalmed.

To me examples of good are bulk storage bins, horse breeding system and revising the deed system while examples of bad are adding champs, losing wild and the original home server raiding.

[MrGARY 12,421]

And I think the fact that we all know Rolf WANTS a PvP-centric game, but that Wurm is NOT a PvP-centric game, is proof that sometimes ... the majority DOES get what it wants most.

As a "pvper", I understand Wurm isn't a pvp game, it's a crafting/terraforming game with pvp. I don't understand the last part, pvpers certainly aren't the majority in Wurm.

As a "pvper", I also don't agree with a lot of the changes done that freedomers dislike. For example, no way in hell do I want these severe nerfs on taming, not sure most of us did. It was seemingly more a knee jerk reaction to people using heavily overpowered Valrei mobs or uniques.

The problem is when the game requires balance, but instead receives nerfs.

[Torgrim 403]

I support change in genreal. It is what makes the world interesting, and that applies to Wurm as well. If nothing would ever change we would be bored with the game alot faster.

If Rolf has made something that doesn't work as he intended (even though some of us may like it as it is) he has to be able to change it to fit his original plan. The goal for him has to be that the game works nicely for new players coming in, not knowing all that was in the past, but at the same time still being fun for the old players.

The fact is that a change will be popular with some and less popular with others. If enough people think the change is bad and can prove it with good reasoning Rolf has been known to change his mind and revert or remake the change pretty soon after.

Some of you are saying that it's getting hard to play the game with all the nerfs. That's not really true is it? I mean, if anything, the game is becoming easier and easier. Lowered create timers, no material loss on failed item creation, bulk storage etc.

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

And I think the fact that we all know Rolf WANTS a PvP-centric game, but that Wurm is NOT a PvP-centric game, is proof that sometimes ... the majority DOES get what it wants most.

As a "pvper", I understand Wurm isn't a pvp game, it's a crafting/terraforming game with pvp. I don't understand the last part, pvpers certainly aren't the majority in Wurm.

Aye, that is correct. Freedom Server probably represents the majority in numbers and philosophy -- even though it does not really represent Rolf's vision, or the Wurm he would like to have succeed today. It has all kinds of anti-pvp mechanisms built into its code. That's what the majority wanted, and that's what the majority got, despite what Rolf would have liked to see -- which I assume is a world much closer to the Epic servers, with maybe some more tweaks and finetuning. I think he was hoping if he could just finally get that right, even the Freedom server diehards would come over to his worldview. But they didn't come over, not in any great numbers at least, and I don't think they ever will, no matter how "perfect" a pvp world he ever finally creates. The fact that Freedom servers exist at all, is proof that Rolf does pay attention to what the "majority" wants in the issues that matter the most to them. And I don't really think lamp oil is really one of those issues.

I suspect the longer you play Wurm, the more that the irritations pile up. If that's the case, then the people who have played the last four to eight years are probably a lot more irate than the ones who have played less than a year. I think there is some psychology with his playerbase that Rolf is rather inept at, and that if Rolf were a clever and charismatic man, he could have found a way to make the changes he wanted, be acceptable to the players. I think the main issue is that the way he does it irritates the heck out of everyone. but I don't think the alternative of putting the final game mechanisms in the hand of a majority vote is a better route. I personally think it would be utter disaster.

And to be honest I would trust Rolf over a majority of my fellow players even if I have zero interest in the game Rolf wants me to play (ie: PvP). Because the bottom line is, Rolf DOES give most of us what we want. And there is not one other game developer out there today doing that .. at least in my playbook. Quite frankly I am pretty certain I would HATE the game that the majority got to create via popular vote (which is I think the original request of this suggestion thread.) And -- I don't like the game Rolf wants to make either lol -- I guess I am just sheer lucky that the game I like happens to be what is making nobody very happy at the moment. Well, except me. Lucky me. But in four to eight years finally maybe Rolf will rub me the wrong way one too many times as well.

Meantime I think players should continue to vocally protest the changes they hate the most. Rolf does actually cave in sometimes.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Brash_Endeavors

[Xandaros 49]

Nearly all the changes mentioned only add to the realism in wurm:

Lamps - why would they be magically refilled? Upkeep is not an excuse, you don't pay per lamp, but per tile and guard. (and perimeter)

Horses - Horses don't move fast backwards. Actually, backwards is a way they rarely go when not forced by humans. And only a really well trained horse will turn on the spot, because it hurts them. They will usually go slightly forward, which is also implemented and adds realism.

Trolls bashing - Hell, if humans can take a huge club and bash down a fence, why can't a troll? They are huge and look like they have a lot more arm strength, as well. Bashing trolls is only reasonable.

I agree that tunneling creatures doesn't sound that great, but hey, it adds a little fun to the game.

That said, I don't *like* these changes, but I can perfectly understand them and if I was Rolf, I'd have implemented that way earlier. (Except for tunneling creatures, it doesn't make much sense to me)

-1

[Wulfgar 1,119]

Lamps - why would they be magically refilled? Upkeep is not an excuse, you don't pay per lamp, but per tile and guard. (and perimeter)

On the other hand, why wouldn't they be magically refilled?

Rolf gets a rather large percent of his income from deeds, and there should be some advantages. Why do structures, lamps and signs magically repair themselves? Why do lamps magically turn on and off at certain times? Why does a deed form magically prevent people from bashing my fences (but not trolls)? Why does a deed form magically prevent people from digging the ground or cutting down my trees?

Maybe lamps being lit forever on 1kg of tar is unrealistic, but I don't see my guards taking planks or rock to repair my structures either.

There is no good reason for the lamp change, except powertripping. It would be the same if Rolf tomorrow made forges require peat to burn, and nothing but peat.

[Protunia 735]

Maybe lamps being lit forever on 1kg of tar is unrealistic, but I don't see my guards taking planks or rock to repair my structures either.

Maybe its time the guards should start using some of those things piled up in BsB's all over the server.

Good Idea here I think it would add to the game.

[Xandra 353]

Hi,

Nearly all the changes mentioned only add to the realism in wurm:

Realism in a world where we have lava creatures, burning creatures from hell, and immensely enlarged rats and spiders, Orly?

Where we make a house wall of some 20 tiny planks and 1 single nail, Orly?

Where theres colored crocs out there, a real challenge for any young fighter. But you can have a seasoned tank to help you, it takes the beatings, and you tame the else invincible croc.

In the very moment the croc gets tamed there's a dust cloud in the air, "poof", and your freshly tamed croc mutates to a brown bear, seen from combat rating.

And as soon as you're using a rope on it, leading, another "poof", and your croc is a young wolf, at best.

Realism? Orly?

There's no realism in Wurm. It's a fantasy world, and asking for "realism" is the best way to destroy it, IMHO.

Have a good time!

[GravityDog 41]

Where we make a house wall of some 20 tiny planks and 1 single (Pile of) nail(s),

Edited August 13, 2012 by GravityDog

[Vroomfondel 1,128]

Maybe its time the guards should start using some of those things piled up in BsB's all over the server.

Good Idea here I think it would add to the game.

Right. you say that now, but when you go to start a project and find your materials missing, then you will have a different opinion. Remember, you PAY for upkeep every month. It's not magic that just happens because you bought the deed, you have to add silvers to keep it going. Make me add materials too and I'm out of here.

[Dragonmob 18]

(This text is not offensive)

Rolf works with the game only when he wants, or needs to. He doesn't need to make something only if someone else wants, i.e. here. As Kyrmius said, he doesn't need to do anything, he is getting more players and money. He makes some updates he thinks are good, they doesn't to be good for most players. When he feels different, he wants to do something, he may look forums and see what we want, but this doesn't happend often.

I will use Minecraft as example. Minecraft players know that Notch used to release small updates rapidly, now he releases big ones every month or two. The release notes are full of new features and improvements.

When you read Wurm release notes, you will see that there are mainly bug fixes and changes, in small updates. (From 2011 to 2012) There are almost none new items or features, every update is about bug fix, modification, balancing or trying to get falled server up. One thing Rolf has added are servers. Four epic servers, three freedom servers. The players are shattered to the servers, and every server is pretty empty now, Epic home servers have sometimes under 20 players. I was thinking when I started at 2011 summer that Wurm team would update this game like any other MMO with new features, areas and such. Now, there are a load of changes and bug fixes, but pretty much none new features. Of course, there are the servers.

In two years.

This will be changed, however, as games like Wurm are getting released to beta, like LiF. It won't take long before this happends, and players move. I hope Rolf notices it soon enough.

But still, I like Wurm and want to play it, there are no game like this (yet) and I have got used to the thing I wrote. Rolf has made great game, but I really hope he starts working with the game seriously.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Dragonmob

[Hussars 511]

On the other hand, why wouldn't they be magically refilled?

Rolf gets a rather large percent of his income from deeds, and there should be some advantages. Why do structures, lamps and signs magically repair themselves? Why do lamps magically turn on and off at certain times? Why does a deed form magically prevent people from bashing my fences (but not trolls)? Why does a deed form magically prevent people from digging the ground or cutting down my trees?

Actually, my lamps take damage (greatly reduced) on-deed with almost a year of upkeep in the bank, as does all other construction with the specific exception of houses and fences/gate.

Targets/dummies, trash heap, even the mail box and wells need to be repaired every couple of weeks...

Edited August 13, 2012 by Hussars

[ago 470]

Lamps should not take damage on deed. That's actually a thing that's in the changelog. Along with banners and flags.

[Protunia 735]

Lamps should not take damage on deed. That's actually a thing that's in the changelog. Along with banners and flags.

yeah I am pretty sure now they do not take damage at all I also think mailboxes once cast on should not take damage either if we are going to keep on this road of guard costs to do things.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Protunia