What Would You Change To Make Wurm More Attractive To Players?

[ReaverKane 363]

Yes, I have a deed on Independence. And yeah it took a good long while to build all the walls and buildings on it, but it was all done bit by bit, a couple of house walls at a time (after the first small building) There was no immediate need to have all the buidings completed. I tended to just do it two walls at a time because that meant just one trip to the mine with a small cart - turning the shards into bricks whilst there and just carting the bricks back. This gave me the time for all the other odd jobs that needed doing around the place.

I wouldn't call the creation of a first house a 'grind' Especially as its wooden and usually 'quality' is not a consideration. During the process they will also gain valuable skills - woodcutting, carpentry, maybe some digging (as well as a litle bit of mining, blacksmithing and locksmithing) Having a little house to call home at the end of that is a little bonus.

You're missing my point. I'm not saying this is necessarily bad, its how wurm is, and most current players are ok with it. Problem is, it scares of a chunk of players cause its too long, and its a way of attracting more people. I mean, if we cut off the material making to 2-3 seconds each, and cut a bit on other actions that are too long, the game will be more enjoyable, and instead of people having nightmares about rebuilding a house, it will make the game a lot more enjoyable, and leave us some time to spend on other more enjoyable tasks.

[Tinkerer 107]

But.. shorter production timers also means a less valuable product and less skill gain. Leaving more of a grind to make up the defecit of what you would have otherwise have gained. not only that, but it means tools/skills/enchants have a less noticable effect and lose their usefulness.

There are already quite a few areas where timers have been reduced and skill gains are far smaller, and this does not please everyone.

If you're talking about scaring or attracting people, then really you are really talking about the new players - hence an early starting bonus would be useful to counter that. Mostly though (from experience in watching CA chat from the tutorial zone) its not the action timers that confuse and scare people, but the failure rates.

I've lost count of the number of times I have seen things like "How the hell do I make this campfire - I've tried at least a dozen times and it doesn't work" this also adds problems as it uses up a portion of kindling leaving not enough to retry (most have not yet discovered how to combine yet) and they often think its a bug or they are doing something wrong, With a 'beginners luck' type buff, the chances of success can be initially boosted so as not to demoralise new players or screw up creation chances completely.

It would only affect items you could already make without the buff - i.e. the 6% rule where less than 6% wont show as a creation option. So a 2% chance item would still not be available even if when multiplied by the bonus it was >6%.

It would not lead to a noticable increase in action timers as the buff wore off. It would just seem that you get more failures - but at least you have learned that you are doing something the correct way.

Using alts for this buff wouldn't be worthwhile particularly anyway - given the low quality items they would make due to their low skills.

Edited August 10, 2012 by Tinkerer

[ReaverKane 363]

But.. shorter production timers also means a less valuable product and less skill gain. Leaving more of a grind to make up the defecit of what you would have otherwise have gained. not only that, but it means tools/skills/enchants have a less noticable effect and lose their usefulness.

There are already quite a few areas where timers have been reduced and skill gains are far smaller, and this does not please everyone.

If you're talking about scaring or attracting people, then really you are really talking about the new players - hence an early starting bonus would be useful to counter that. Mostly though (from experience in watching CA chat from the tutorial zone) its not the action timers that confuse and scare people, but the failure rates.

I've lost count of the number of times I have seen things like "How the hell do I make this campfire - I've tried at least a dozen times and it doesn't work" this also adds problems as it uses up a portion of kindling leaving not enough to retry (most have not yet discovered how to combine yet) and they often think its a bug or they are doing something wrong, With a 'beginners luck' type buff, the chances of success can be initially boosted so as not to demoralise new players or screw up creation chances completely.

It would only affect items you could already make without the buff - i.e. the 6% rule where less than 6% wont show as a creation option. So a 2% chance item would still not be available even if when multiplied by the bonus it was >6%.

It would not lead to a noticeable increase in action timers as the buff wore off. It would just seem that you get more failures - but at least you have learned that you are doing something the correct way.

Using alts for this buff wouldn't be worthwhile particularly anyway - given the low quality items they would make due to their low skills.

1- For the skill gain, like when rolf last changed timers, it would need tweaking along with the timers.

2- I'm not saying make all timers 1second, just saying to make them more feasible, so that we don't spend 10 seconds looking at a bar while making a single brick.

3- giving a speed up buff for new players will simply make it that when the buff ends, they quit. Just like what happens with most asian mmorpgs, at a certain point the leveling curve jumps exponentially, and when people reach that step they start quitting.

[Vroomfondel 1,128]

I posted this originally in another thread, but I think it bears repeating here.

I think it's time to stop worrying about the casual player. People are confusing the idea that you can to ANYTHING in Wurm with being able to do EVERYTHING. That is the reason there is a grind to every skill, to promote specialists in each field, all dependent on each other for other things we can't make. You know, like the real world. But we keep asking it all to be easier (myself included) so we can all be JOATs (that is Jack Of All Trades). And I see now we are losing community ties with everyone being able to do everything. That's why there are 900 'villages' on Independence, mostly empty. Many of those villages are like mine, just my chars and me sitting there grinding all day until I'm ready to go sell to noobs. I have the feeling that everything needs to get harder again, to promote people gathering in groups again and becoming specialists.

Edited August 10, 2012 by Vroomfondel

[Hussars 511]

While I appreciate the discussion, I think this is one of the points that is really just user preference and always will be.

Maybe from 1 to X (maybe 15?) the base line action timers are adjusted to a fixed point (variable by the actual skill being used). So say at skill 1.00 the timer is currently 45seconds, and at skill 20 it is 30 seconds (just an example folks not real numbers) Maybe set the timer for skill 1.00 to 15.00 to 35 seconds, and start normal progression from there.

Or you could have a modified version of the system used on Epic (increased skill gains) but the bonus cuts off at a much lower level, at 10-15 would be the most likely.

This has very little impact on any market based skills since most trade skills you'd use you can grind out to 20+ fairly quickly already, but would make it a bit easier/faster for those just starting out that don't know how to do this. Again to limit the exploiting of it, have a check that removes this bonus if a character uses any non-starter item over (as an example) 10ql or any enchanted items.

From the player's view, it should be a small slow down in skill gain this way, and brings them in-line with later game expectations. Builds an interest in the game, and hopefully they use the time to build a house and some attachment to the game/people/etc...

Basically.. flatten the early curve, and build them up to make the later curve less daunting (not easier, just less imposing).

Edited August 10, 2012 by Hussars

[Hussars 511]

"I think it's time to stop worrying about the casual player. People are confusing the idea that you can to ANYTHING in Wurm with being able to do EVERYTHING. That is the reason there is a grind to every skill, to promote specialists in each field, all dependent on each other for other things we can't make..." "...I have the feeling that everything needs to get harder again, to promote people gathering in groups again and becoming specialists."

While I'm trying to see it from your view, and I think I understand where you are aiming with this, I have to disagree a bit.

There are other ways to do this. If you want to limit the number of JOATs, you have to have a limit imposed. Right now, the only real limit (from the Freedom side) is time. Even casual players could eventually master all of the skills in the game (yes it would take years if not decades, but with enough time), making it more difficult to start the process though only servers to reduce broad spectrum appeal.

Easy way to stop the JOATs mentality. Limit the number of skills you can take above a certain point and/or add skill decay. So only skills you actively use stay in top form. Or a combination of the two, maybe you get 3 skills you can master (100.00) (or some other arbitrary level) those skills lock and don't decay once you get there.

You then use skill tiers to further reduce the number of skills at set points (3 more skills from 50-75, 5 more at 25-50 [again just random values as an example])

These are systems I am personally against, but they do promote interdependence. They do also allow those who have dedicated the most time and effort to a small set of skills to be true masters of those skills, but if you truly want to promote specialists, this would do it.

The problem I see with these types of forced specialization development fall back to where we are now, when the population dwindles too far.. you get trapped. If you specialize too much, you become VERY dependent on others who may not be there tomorrow. In an MMO, this (to me at least) hurts more than allowing everyone the ability to explore any skill path they prefer. If all the weapon-smiths are gone, someone will fill this gap without the need for a second character to do so.

Edited August 10, 2012 by Hussars

[Vroomfondel 1,128]

While I'm trying to see it from your view, and I think I understand where you are aiming with this, I have to disagree a bit.

There are other ways to do this. If you want to limit the number of JOATs, you have to have a limit imposed. Right now, the only real limit (from the Freedom side) is time. Even casual players could eventually master all of the skills in the game (yes it would take years if not decades, but with enough time), making it more difficult to start the process though only servers to reduce broad spectrum appeal.

Easy way to stop the JOATs mentality. Limit the number of skills you can take above a certain point and/or add skill decay. So only skills you actively use stay in top form. Or a combination of the two, maybe you get 3 skills you can master (100.00) (or some other arbitrary level) those skills lock and don't decay once you get there.

You then use skill tiers to further reduce the number of skills at set points (3 more skills from 50-75, 5 more at 25-50 [again just random values as an example])

These are systems I am personally against, but they do promote interdependence. They do also allow those who have dedicated the most time and effort to a small set of skills to be true masters of those skills, but if you truly want to promote specialists, this would do it.

The problem I see with these types of forced specialization development fall back to where we are now, when the population dwindles too far.. you get trapped. If you specialize too much, you become VERY dependent on others who may not be there tomorrow. In an MMO, this (to me at least) hurts more than allowing everyone the ability to explore any skill path they prefer. If all the weapon-smiths are gone, someone will fill this gap without the need for a second character to do so.

I don't think we need such an elaborate system to promote specialization. The grind for skillgain does that. It used to do it a lot more, but you still see some skills (weaponsmith at the top of the list) where the grind makes it so only a few are masters.

I'm just saying that as we start talking about what should be easier, be very sure you really want it easier.

I already see too many times recently where a group moves in, buys some tools, builds a village real fast, then it dies away a couple of weeks later as they realize they've done everything once now, and the only thing left to do is work on skillgain, grinding, to be able to compete in the markets. They don't want to spend forever doing minor tasks to get silvers until they get the skill to sell more valuable items. The only other lure we have to keep them around would be the PVE or PVP aspects, and we know the entire fight system is too primitive to attract a large audience.

What attracted most of us to this game was that nothing was easy, and there is no instant gratification. You have to really work at it to get somewhere. A majority of game players do not enjoy that, so Wurm may never become a major game. We may just have to accept our niche in the online gameplaying world.

Edited August 10, 2012 by Vroomfondel

[Plebian 89]

It seems you are both missing the major point. You both say there is nothing to do once the middle is reached of Wurm. That means the game needs end game content. There needs to be a reason to grind these skills, and a purpose for you once you reach end game.

Making the grind longer just puts off reaching the end game. Still end game content is the problem.

Making the grind shorter makes reaching the end game faster. Still end game content is the problem.

Seems the common element is lack of end game content.

[Vroomfondel 1,128]

It seems you are both missing the major point. You both say there is nothing to do once the middle is reached of Wurm. That means the game needs end game content. There needs to be a reason to grind these skills, and a purpose for you once you reach end game.

Making the grind longer just puts off reaching the end game. Still end game content is the problem.

Making the grind shorter makes reaching the end game faster. Still end game content is the problem.

Seems the common element is lack of end game content.

I've always seen that problem, but see no fix for it. This game is more simulation than game, so it goes on and on, no end game scenario to strive for. You see how it has issues in the game too. I see very old chars that still control weaponsmithing. They have played out the game, mastered everything. They now control that market and there is no way to let someone else get that top spot. And even if that player quits, they usually sell the char, so the market stays the same.

You need a way to have folks 'win' a scenario and move on to something else, but with the way players get established setting up a village and such, I don't see any way to make that work out and be fun. I don't see a way to make them want to move on to a next, more difficult level server. Look what happened with the newest servers. Many went to build on the new server, but they also kept their old village too. They all want the right to have villages on every server, and maybe that is wrong too.

[Hussars 511]

You also run into problems with limiting deed because that is a major point for silver purchases, both from players and from Rolf directly.

As for end game content, there really isn't any content that isn't player made with the exception of hunting or exploring. Epic has a mission system, which based on some of the comments on the open forums and some of the Theater sub forums, is limited and full of its own issues. I won't pretend to know how true that is or what issues there may be, just the impression I get from some of the threads talking about them.

On that note, some system that player could use to host open missions with a set objective (deliver X items to Y person for a reward), maybe some sort of an in-game extension of the market forums. Would be interesting to see a system that hashed the market forum for the tags now that we have them, and related those tags to a job board (user created item and planted like a sign).

So if someone had a WTB post for #deed_name, the subject line and content would appear in-game on the job board. Maybe add a piece that would give a button on the post for someone to accept the "job" which would update the forum post saying who and when the job was accepted.

Maybe this would add a #accepted tag, which the original poster could remove if the job was left incomplete (or provided a list of people willing to take on the job who the buyer would select from)

Edited August 10, 2012 by Hussars

[KaiH 1,126]

I understood this thread as gathering player ideas..

Please don't discuss other players wishlists, make a new topic if there is none for an idea you found in here.

[Hussars 511]

I understood this thread as gathering player ideas..

Please don't discuss other players wishlists, make a new topic if there is none for an idea you found in here.

Doh, sorry. Side tracked my own thread..

I'll go modify it shortly (posting from phone again lol)

[Kadore 926]

I've always seen that problem, but see no fix for it. This game is more simulation than game, so it goes on and on, no end game scenario to strive for. You see how it has issues in the game too. I see very old chars that still control weaponsmithing. They have played out the game, mastered everything. They now control that market and there is no way to let someone else get that top spot. And even if that player quits, they usually sell the char, so the market stays the same.

You need a way to have folks 'win' a scenario and move on to something else, but with the way players get established setting up a village and such, I don't see any way to make that work out and be fun. I don't see a way to make them want to move on to a next, more difficult level server. Look what happened with the newest servers. Many went to build on the new server, but they also kept their old village too. They all want the right to have villages on every server, and maybe that is wrong too.

How is this wrong, are you saying if everyone reduced to one deed those deeds would be replaced by more paying players, new server should be restricted to brand new players because given a chance they would not burn out and / or quit or maintain multiple deeds as well over time?

Being upset because things are not fair in a game that has a huge time commitment, thus causing those that have raised skills to top level to be the ones getting the majority or sales in some cases is no different than any other game that has people farming mobs 24/7 to sell desirable loot.

There is no need to buy things in Wurm to play the game, it is easier of course to skill up with higher quality tools with enchants, but given time and patience there is nothing you cannot create or do with the tools you recieve leaving the tutorial.

[Vroomfondel 1,128]

I understood this thread as gathering player ideas..

Please don't discuss other players wishlists, make a new topic if there is none for an idea you found in here.

Kind of a dictatorial statement don't you think. I have never seen a thread that does not discuss suggestions as much as collect suggestions. I consider it part of the process, so a good idea can get talked up and developed, and bad ideas can get recognized for their failings faster.

[Joanavon 553]

Just make starting easier. Put a sickle in the noob pack, reduce the planks on a 1x1 noob shack when under 10 carpentry from 20 to 10. While we're at it include a first spawn only noob fishing pole. That should be enough to make setting down some roots and thus staying in wurm a lot easier.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Joanavon

[ashoof 43]

My honest opinion - add a character customizer and better player animations and you'll draw LOADS of new people...

I've gotten a few friends to try wurm, they loved it but they couldnt stand not haveing any custom player looks or animations.....I know it seems kinda shallow and short sighted, but its the truth.

PEOPLE ARE TURNED AWAY BY THE POOR ANIMATIONS AND LACK OF PLAYER CUSTOMIZATION

[Joanavon 553]

Agreed, its dumb cuz you cant even really see yourself. But no avatars is a big deal and mmo basics for most.

[ashoof 43]

Agreed, its dumb cuz you cant even really see yourself. But no avatars is a big deal and mmo basics for most.

exactly, first impressions are a BIG deal, I mean I tried wurm a year before I started playing seriously and I didnt make it past the tutorial for the reason of animations, and the way my char looked

[Joanavon 553]

Quick fix, carry a banner around when not in danger. They are huge on you character. Infact carry 2

[Tinkerer 107]

My honest opinion - add a character customizer and better player animations and you'll draw LOADS of new people...

I've gotten a few friends to try wurm, they loved it but they couldnt stand not haveing any custom player looks or animations.....I know it seems kinda shallow and short sighted, but its the truth.

PEOPLE ARE TURNED AWAY BY THE POOR ANIMATIONS AND LACK OF PLAYER CUSTOMIZATION

Totally agree.

While it matters much less once you are into the game, at the start it is a huge part of the first impression.

I'd also add in that the many problems with different graphics cards also acts as a big roadblock for many. When you are used to playing other AAA titles on your computer, then try Wurm and you have severe graphics lag, that's another big obstacle. Needing to reconfigure drivers or turn off catalst or make other odd changes just to 'try' a game is a hassle many will simply run from or avoid.

A less common problem from new players has to do with mouse sensitivity. I'm pretty sure there used to be an option for this in settings, but it seems to have been removed.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Tinkerer

[Protunia 735]

Graphics, animations, and Advertising....

[KaiH 1,126]

Thread pinned, check the OP from time to time.

[Hussars 511]

Updated the OP to include a new link or two, and a request for topic dicsussions running longer than 3 posts to please be moved to a new thread, and a link provided here for easier association/tracking/joining.

As said previously, I appreciate the conversation and discussion on the ideas, but the main point is to provide a more concise list of what is being suggested and actively discussed in this thread and others like it.

On that note, if you know of threads covering any topics listed thus far, or should be considered, please post a link here or PM me with it and I'll get it on the list.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Hussars

[Keldun 335]

Something said earlier gave me an idea:

More interchangeable materials

At the moment you can use pretty much any wood for any carpentry, but metals for example are a lot more limited and sometimes pretty senselessly.

And then there are things like cooking that use pretty much anything edible in any combination. (even though actual success is limited to only meat and vegetables)

There are other things that could benefit from more variable resources, popluar example: the torch, it's just too damn difficult to make for a simple one use item.

So instead of it requiring exactly moss and tar make it (moss or grass) and (tar, peat, fat, sap or fat) or make it as simple as grass wrapped around a stick, while adding better mats gives you a better torch.

Other examples:

using any fruit for wine.

Using both pelt and fur for beds.

[Xandra 353]

Hi,

wanted to remind you of old legends, of people that got granted a wish by some godly entity, and that then often managed to kill themselves by formulating a not-so-well thought out wish.

"Make it that anything I touch transmutes to gold!", for instance. Too bad that this wish includes wine, water, bread and meat. Immense richness quickly, but a cruel death of starvation following it.

Think of what you're suggesting! Your wish could make Wurm a poor imitate of WoW, not getting any new long term players (it'd still be too lousy, and it still doesn't have any end game!), but losing many of it's current hard core payers (This is not Wurm anymore!). Because of drastic risen system requirements, or because of Wurm would have lost it's "Soul", or just because Wurm wouldn't be Wurm anymore.

Think twice of what you ask for! It might bite your cute behind, else.

Wurm is a special game, and as such is aimed to a quite limited audience. We should rise the acceptance at this special audience, don't you think?

Would it benefit Wurm if we'd change this game completely? Wouldn't it be, by far, better to improve it within the not-avoidable limits? Keeping the "soul" of the game?

Think twice. The last change in creating items has sissified the game too much, already. IMHO. No more real fun to finally get a mooring anchor done anymore, now it's just a matter of repetitive clicking. No more real experience of success anymore, no more "wOOts" anymore. Not much fun anymore.

Wurm isn't WoW. Wurm is a sandbox, and doesn't need any kind of "end game". And it doesn't really need char customization, animations and whatever fancy features.

Wurm is Wurm, and there's work for years to improve it, just read this.

Think twice of what you ask for,

you'll might get a result not pleasing you!

Have a good time!

Edited August 13, 2012 by Xandra