Combat System Overhaul.

[Plebian 89]

There are few people in game that think the combat system in Wurm is very well executed. It is basically scrolling text, and it seems horribly outdated. It would seem the developers would wish to change this, and I would like to gather some ideas.

So if you had to overhaul the Wurm combat system. What would you like to see?

1.) Anyone that knows me realizes I love Mount and Blade style combat mechanics. Which is basically completely player skill controlled. There is no constant swing with special attacks thrown in. You control each and every swing of your sword with the mouse including direction(top/left/right/thrust) and timing of said swing(you can hold a swing at top/left/right/thrust). You also must control blocks with your weapon/shield. If you have a weapon and no shield you must block in the direction the attack comes from in order to stop it. If you are sword and shield then just hitting block brings your shield up to block(including incoming arrows/bolts/rocks/spears etc). (This is just a very basic explanation. It is just so folks with no experience can get an idea.) This style obviously favors player skill/reaction the most over grinding stats. It also requires there to be a pretty low ping time to PVP.

EDIT to add video showing basics: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9jHcZjWw9U

2.) The other style of combat I have seen is like WoW. You basically have a constant swing on a timer. You also have special abilities that you control when to use. Some are instant and some have cast times OR work on the next normal swing. Use of these special abilities usually is controlled by some resource(rage/energy/mana) and many had cooldowns after use. Basically this meant that grinding on your character was more important, and that player skill/reaction was not important.

I would love for others to add their ideas to this from their game experiences in combat. Since combat is both PVP and PVE it would be nice to get player input from all servers.

Please keep it civil and realize this is a discussion about COMBAT MECHANICS ONLY. This is not a discussion on tactics in PVP/PVE.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Plebian

[Protunia 735]

I could go for the Age of Conan type of combat.

[Plebian 89]

I could go for the Age of Conan type of combat.

Explain in basic terms the combat system there?

[ianrose 125]

I would really enjoy something akin to your first option (described as mount and blade style). However, there would be a huge problem with this in Wurm... the ping time. Wurm PvPers know that in horse or boat combat, you need to be a tile in front of where your enemy appears, to actually be within range of them. If you throw in a system like you described, I would imagine it getting very messy.

I'm not saying we shouldn't change the combat system, I'm saying I think we need to have a server setup with less ping first, then by all means Wurm combat should be overhauled.

[Protunia 735]

Explain in basic terms the combat system there?

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAzH5gmlJF4

you can set it up to use an xbox 360 controller to fight and its a blast.

its all real time action combat and very very fun to PvP with

Notice how that guy was stealthing up to that other guy in the beginning there!!

There are different types of swings and attacks as well and the biggest thing is you can see the animations.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Protunia

[Plebian 89]

I would really enjoy something akin to your first option (described as mount and blade style). However, there would be a huge problem with this in Wurm... the ping time. Wurm PvPers know that in horse or boat combat, you need to be a tile in front of where your enemy appears, to actually be within range of them. If you throw in a system like you described, I would imagine it getting very messy.

I'm not saying we shouldn't change the combat system, I'm saying I think we need to have a server setup with less ping first, then by all means Wurm combat should be overhauled.

This is a really, really valid point, and one of the reasons Wurm might need a different system to reward grinding skills and body stats a bit more. (also the fact that grinding skills would gain you near nothing AND that I can go 1v5+ in M&B against decent opponents and come out unharmed many times. It caters a BIT too much towards individual combat skill. It might also be hard to tell which direction a wolf or spider is attacking you from as well. Since you only fight humanoids in M&B.)

Edited August 9, 2012 by Plebian

[Tinkerer 107]

I could go for the Age of Conan type of combat.

This was very much the first thing I thought of too - with regard to what *could* work in wurm. Though not 'exactly' but merely 'similar'

Full 'real-time' interaction isn't really a viable option for Wurm given the emphasis that Wurm has on skills and also the issues of player latency and lag. Also, Age Of Conan has no 'auto attack move', something that I think Wurm would still need. All the additional interaction options would merely queue up over this in the way that special moves, focus, shield bash etc. do, and when the queue is empty, it returns to the basic attack again. (Otherwise you introduce bigger advantages for players with lower latency)

All these additional ‘regular’ moves would be added to a queue and with different execution timers (an expansion on swing-timers) and depending upon your last action, a ‘positional recovery timer’ (also dependant upon weapon type)

Think about actually swinging a heavy two-handed maul... after a strong low swing from right to left and the momentum involved with that it is not immediately possible to suddenly perform a quick downwards strike on the right without a pause to recover position, however performing an upwards swing from the left would be much quicker to execute as a second move as your maul is already in the starting position for that move. Hence, for the observant, it might be easier to predict what attack your opponent might try next and you can attempt to either block it, or counter attack. (This element of reaction and prediction however does require low latency)

A player could ever define their own attack patterns should they prefer, instead of constantly queuing the same order each fight - but this would be less effective against common opponents who might 'learn' your pattern and counter it. Again, this adds more strategy to combat rather than it being purely numeric.

With increased character animation then a player has the chance to guess what might come next without being required to concentrate on the wall of text combat window. It also becomes far more interesting to watch happen. With visible weapons and armour, one can also better predict what fighting style he might expect from the player.

With expansion on the current ‘swing-timer’ to affect different moves and a ‘positional recovery’ between some attack moves, this might help make more weapons more viable and introduces more variation in fighting style. As it stands being purely numeric, I'd actually guess there is very little variation in what weapons are used in PvP at a higher level. (but yes, that is an assumption as I haven't experienced that).

[Gavin 971]

Full 'real-time' interaction isn't really a viable option for Wurm given the emphasis that Wurm has on skills and also the issues of player latency and lag.

Agree, personally because of this I think less interaction is a good thing.

[Ecrir 887]

Maybe the combat in Morrowind could give some ideas for the skill based part of it? In Morrowind you swing at your target to tell the game you want to make an attack and what kind of attack (stab, slash, etc), the game itself then makes some rolls and uses your skills to determine if you hit the target or not.

The only issue there was that your swings didn't look any different no matter if you missed or hit, because the animations already started before the game calculates if it was a hit or not. So you ended up with a lot of swings that looked like they hit, while they actually missed. The sound effects were the easiest way to know if you hit or not since those were accurate, if I remember correctly.

It's a more balanced approach interaction wise.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Ecrir

[Protunia 735]

This was very much the first thing I thought of too ...

Oh I agree it would have to be modified a bit to fit this game.

I beta'd and followed this game for 3 years and the first system they had was a mouse based swing which I thought was much better than what they changed too about a year before release ( which is why it was delayed again... ) I guess some players had latency issues as well and decided to go the key press route for the actual swings and the combat combo moves were alittle easier to control this way.

I could very much see Wurm using the current attack system with different swing combo's to execute more powerful attacks.

I love the shield system of being able to control where to block it was fluid once you knew what you were doing.

I think with the animations and visual armor changes this type of combat would give players a rush when fighting each other.

I know I was on edge of my seat every fight. this is the closest I have seen and Played to FPS combat in an MMO.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Protunia

[Keldun 335]

In Ryzom there was a system were you could plan your next action as soon as the previous one started.

I think the opponent could see that plan to some extend as well and formulate a response.

But the most important thing that needs to be done before any halfway decent interactive fight system can be made is to ad more multithreading to the server.

And the threads need to be priorised in a way that big database actions like unloading a cog into a bsb don't affect any time crucial actions like moving or fighting.

Crating actions aren't crucial either, they can be calculated anywhere in the first secons of the minimum timer.

Once that is done and you can assure that 95% of the time, lag will be anywhere below 500ms, you could implement something like this:

0,0s:

Player A chooses to attack right

0,5:

B sees A start to swing left

B chooses to block left

1,0 :

A sees himself start to swing right

B sees himself block left

1,5:

A sees B block right

B chooses to attack right

A chooses to attack right.

2,0:

both see the other start to swing.

A chooses to block.

2,5:

both see B continue the swing and A transform into a block.

The trick is to display and control the fight with a delay so that both clients can synchronize with each other inbetween.

Even with a delay as big as one second it would still work fine as we have 3 second attacks I think.

I think Savage uses a system like this.

There is actualy a similar trick for moving, to simply set the other guy a bit in front of where he was last synch.

Edited August 12, 2012 by Keldun

[Joanavon 553]

At least get some better audio. That grunting/groaning noise is absolutely horrible. It sounds like your either being instantly slaughtered like someone getting hit by a freight train or someone spontaneously combusting. Then perhaps we could have a few more poses for the vogue dancing thing you do to at least spice it up. Do we really need an entire long winded sentance per hit? Why wont +/- number of damage/healing suffice?

[Torgrim 403]

Wurm could use a new combat system that is for sure. I like the current injuries and stuff, it's better than most other games. But the combat in it self is really boring. Animation will help a bit but not much.

Age of Conan combat system is nice, wouldn't mind something like that. Skills and gear has to matter alot in Wurm I think though. We have to rememember also that Wurm is a crafters game and lots of people don't like to fight much so too much interaction and player skill to be able to kill most stuff would not be a good idea either. But certainly, player skill should give you an edge in combat, even ni PvE.

After Rolf is done with the Multi Storey thing, I would love to see this being worked on. I think it would draw alot more people to the game if it had decent combat.

[Keldun 335]

Wurm already has an autofight option (which is kinda pointless sinse normal fight is pretty much autofight as well)

So give the fighters interaction to enjoy the fight.

And give the crafters autofight to deal with the odd spider.

[Lancelot 765]

Wurm's combat system is built very much on mathematics. It's really your gear+ weapons/ Armour+ height = result, with the random number generator combined in that equation. I think something needs to change here . Your impetus and goal in a fight should be acquiessed to a player's strength and nous, not the gear they wear.

So, can a 70+ pound weed like me RL outwit and defeat a prizefighter like Klaa for example ? My account has almost 50 body and 74 fs, coupled with 60+ large metal shield skill and 60+ medium maul or longsword. By no means a really good pvp account, but I should, with those stats at least be able to kill a venerable champion troll or an old champion crocodile, on horse, of course.

Point aside, the current coding of this system could be looked into. Fight Skill on its own is now easy to raise. I see no reason why a new player cannot kill a wolf with a 10 ql short sword and a similar quality wooden shield. I did it on Golden Valley with an alt.

In response to your original post, perhaps touch on body strength/ body control a bit in combat.

[atazs 965]

I dont know how the combat system could be improved it was always a tough one for me. But i think it shouldnt be like mount and blade at all. I mean what would happen to the ingame skills of the character? Many people would quit they`d realize all the grinding they did was for nothing. There needs to be a combination of ingame skills and real life skills in the system. While i wasnt around pre ff and please dont blame me if i say something stupid but i did hear other people opinions of what it was like and most of them said it was much better. It probably had its own bugs but i think it should be returned in some form. This would also probably make some old players come back aswell.

[Plebian 89]

I really believe mount and blade style combat could work, and I see how your point is valid about grinding being less important. There would be many factors that could still add character skills.

Body Strength could effect damage of the weapon when swung. Body strength could also effect the stun effect when you block.

Example 1: Player 1 has 50 body strength and Player 2 has 25 body strength.

Player 1 does a 15 damage hit on 70QL chain to player 2. Player 2 lands a 10 damage hit on the same 70 chain on Player 1. Player 1 was rewarded for grinding that body strength.

Example 2: Player 1 has 50 body strength and Player 2 has 25 body strength.

Player 1 swings from the right and Player 2 blocks. The normal block stun is lets say 0.5 second. Because Player 1 has more strength he causes Player 2 to have a 0.75 stun time. Player 1 is basically overpowering Player 2 because of body strength. Player 1 was rewarded for grinding body strength.

These are just simple examples to show HOW it could be worked in to make grinding still give an advantage. Body control could reduce weapon swing time in the same way. I think adding this to a mount and blade style combat system would actually make fights very interesting.

Example 3: Player 1 has 50 strength and 25 body control. Player 2 has 25 strength and 50 body control.

Player 1 swing from the right and Player 2 blocks. Player 2 suffers a 0.75 second stun time from Player 1 having more strength. Player 2 recovers and swings at the left of Player 1. Player 2 swings a full second faster than Player 1 because of his added body control. Now player 2 is faster swing wise but requires more hits to kill player 1. Player 1 swings slower but requires less hits to kill Player 2.

You can see how the addition of the body stats effecting swing timer and damage caused could make for very interesting fights. The player skill would matter, AND what stats they have from grinding.

[cooutlaw119 16]

combat could use a slight boost I play both servers pvp and pve and in player vs player the mount and blade combat machanics can work, but people on pve do not all like combat I can handal defending my self from animals but it would be challanging for mount and blade combat mecanics to work if you are fighting animals, not people so keep combat with animals the way it is just use mount and blade combat macanics for the human combat in pvp but that is what I think about this topic.

[Aetherwalker 1,863]

I like Ecrir's idea, however I would like to point out that the M&B style combat would be a great boon for everyone, as it would require actual personal skill to be any good at combat, adding a whole new element to PvE and PvP that I find currently lacking. In PvE especially literally anyone can be a great fighter if you have deep enough pockets, with personal skill being taken into account it will be no longer the case of wallet warriors in 90+ql 90+AoSP scale being the best hunters due to their gear if their personal skill doesn't match up, and those with high FS would demand a certain level of respect.

[atazs 965]

Bump. Id really like to see the combat to work something like in dwarf fortress. Add more variety of weapons like warhammers and daggers. Different weapons should function better when made from different materials(some should be worse and some should be better than others) while keeping iron weapons between the 2. The current weapons need improved. Currently nobody uses spears,polearms,axes etc in pvp because they are useless. Nobody really uses shortswords, 2handed weapons or large mauls either. Its between medium mauls,small mauls and longswords in pvp. Armour should function the same. Different types of armour should function better when made from different metals. Currently gold, bronze etc... chain armour have no use(hopefully after visible armour they will be visible) and nobody uses them. So they should have some use. All this would encourage people to make different metals and use metallurgy a lot more. For leather armours we need to have different variety of leathers and hides. For example: Leather armour made from crocodile hide should be better than say leather armour made from deer hide. But its just an example.

[Keldun 335]

I like the idea of actuall player skill improving your chances but considering the ratio of crafters Wurm attracts, player skill should never become necessary to survive most PvE fights.