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Crusader

Epic Council.

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If the council could be done properly and maturely, then I would both +1 this suggestion and offer myself to be on this council for MRH, as both a crafter/carebear, and moderate pvper.

Caliphae for Councilwoman.

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I have a possible solution to the issue of PvP code affecting Freedom, and vice versa.

Each hypothetical council would have it's own forum section to discuss ideas etc. Once the Epic Council (for example) has hashed out an idea, it could be displayed for Rolf and also sent to the Freedom council forum for them to see and identify any cross-compatibility issues before possibly be implemented.

Thoughts?

Using 2 commitees would only be worse, now you want to find 2 groups of 'ideal ' people to pass this all through. Rolf simply will not go for this, because it will not help him. You will not be able to get folks together often enough, you won't be able to get full agreement, and most will lose interest in the committee after a few months at most.

The idea that you can find a proper, select, mature group and get them to work for free on a game to decide 'improvements' is applaudable, but it is simply not realistic.

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How did Rolf and Oracle find a group of mature people to be GM's, many of whom have lasted years? I say it is realistic. It may not be easy, but it is very doable and would substantially help the game.

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ENOUGH!!! You all are showing exactly why a council will never work. Arguments are all that would ever come of the committee, just like it did in the Chaos council. You all have proven that Rolf needs to decide what changes to make for himself, and all we can do is let him know when he really gets one wrong. It's frustrating, but it is the only way anything will get done in Wurm. You guys would spend 6 months just deciding who should be on the council, and would never be able to make a single decision between the lot of you.

Not actually true, it failed for different reasons but still...... it failed, Rolf knows how and why and it was a learning experience for those of us involved.

All things considered I think any initiative should be staff led, not player led. There are ermmm... divisions.... within the player base which is significantly counterproductive for something like this. I was under the impression that staff members already perused the suggestions bringing "good stuff" to Rolf's attention and of course he will dip into the boards for himself.

Zcul did the suggestions thing on uservoice and I think that is where things should go. Want it? then vote for it. The client one is available but its really a generic Wurm request list.

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Not actually true, it failed for different reasons but still...... it failed, Rolf knows how and why and it was a learning experience for those of us involved.

All things considered I think any initiative should be staff led, not player led. There are ermmm... divisions.... within the player base which is significantly counterproductive for something like this. I was under the impression that staff members already perused the suggestions bringing "good stuff" to Rolf's attention and of course he will dip into the boards for himself.

Zcul did the suggestions thing on uservoice and I think that is where things should go. Want it? then vote for it. The client one is available but its really a generic Wurm request list.

Indeed. While something along the lines of an Eve-like CSM can be useful, especially with massive playerbases, ultimately changes should be staff led imho. Ultimately, staff are under the perusal of a overlord (rather volunteer or paid) and thus more answerable when questionable behavior arises. For example the rather explosive departure of an unnamed player with a sketchy reputation. Personally Rolf was more than lenient; although, he still ended up being spat upon.

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Anything that puts the player base's USEFUL suggestions directly into rolfs view gets a +1 from me. Too many times does development in this game focus on things that are not relevant in advancing the game.

e.g. the olive oil business. Seriously?

Edited by Sevoflurane

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Caliphae for Councilwoman.

Thank you, but no. Gary would be much more suited to something like this. I have neither the time nor the interest to become more involved with wurm at the moment.

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Well you really do need todo something because I just went back to Epic and omg what a mess it reminds me of GV after the tutorial was made.....decaying stuff all over the place.

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Well you really do need todo something because I just went back to Epic and omg what a mess it reminds me of GV after the tutorial was made.....decaying stuff all over the place.

Good job you pointed that out. We all know that the number one priority for a PvP server is great looking deeds. Thanks for bringing it up, please let us know where and we'll get the clean up crew right on it!

The issue here is mechanics. Other stuff can come later. I can understand why freedomers would have an interest in what happens on epic - after all, you could play there if you wanted. But why are you all attempting to interfere SO MUCH? People with PvP experience put forward suggestions about what might improve the game and they get attacked by people who it would barely affect. Sure, a change to say, climbing, might affect you directly over there on your cluster, but draining? How does that affect your deed? Number of guards?

Anyway, back on track. An elected and balanced council giving fair representation to each kingdom can only be a good thing. We can learn from the failures of the past. +1

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The issue here is mechanics. Other stuff can come later. I can understand why freedomers would have an interest in what happens on epic - after all, you could play there if you wanted. But why are you all attempting to interfere SO MUCH?

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I dont live on epic, haven't even tried epic yet. Not because I do not want PvP but I do not want broken PvP. I follow all epic threads and have read through the epic and even the chaos threads. But I will put in my thoughts because I do want to one day check out epic or even chaos for that matter.

I have read about the chaos council, it failed. From what I understand they were put together under the same reasoning this epic council to be put together. So Im unsure of how the epic council will succeed when the proof is in the pudding, councils in this game fail.

Creating a council takes away the voice of every other player in the game and leaves it to a select group to come up with the best ideas for all the people. Crusader, I am not saying you would or would not do this, but real life history has even shown that councils create there own agenda and make things worse instead of making things better.

To say that a "freedomer" who has not been to epic or knows nothing of epic cannot voice his opinion leads me to believe some how you feel threatened by freedom. I said I do not play on epic but I do follow it. I know enough about epic right now to make me not want to play on epic as well do many other freedom players. Our voice in actuality is more important then your voice at that point because we are current paying players all it will take for us to go to epic is certain changes then into the portal we go. So our voice becomes more important by the fact that if the horrible things that make epic "bad" in our eyes are corrected, we will go. This game does not market currently, it does not promote. So it has to work on and test on its self and its current community. Yes their are certain mechanics we might not understand or be able to speak on in depth but doesn't mean we shouldn't have a voice on it. From what I have seen this game is completely centered around PvP and the PvE servers are little islands around the PvP islands. Code changes are made that affect PvP also affect PvE.

Your council idea, good in theory but in the end, it just wont work. You will further destroy epic with it.

And as I said, I do not play on epic, would love to but epic is clearly broken and flawed so I will not waste my time or money over there.

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I would have thought the GM's, CA's and CM's were already doing this in some manner, no?

As to attracting more players, when asking those within in a system what they want or what could improve that system, the changes will normally apply only to those already in the system and not do much to attract others from outside it. In this case, the PVP only view will only attract those predisposed for the current style of PVP. Sure you will get some tweeks or bug fixes in there, but you're not really addressing the larger issue of how to get more players involved in the PVP.

Getting input from those who have tried and left, or might be willing to try if X was changed, opens options for additional people you wouldn't have added normally.

To use an in-game reference, animal breeders have to watch for in-breeding between generations, so they have to increase the size of their stable of livestock. Without injections of new breeding stock, eventually they become locked, and their horse's good traits die out.

PVP in wurm has the same feeling to me.

It has/had really good traits, but the narrowing vision of who should be allowed to make a suggestions or provide feedback is slowly killing it.

You need new players to want to join in, and you should want to be able steal players from Freedom. To do this, you need to listen to what they want to make PVP (on any server) more attractive to them. This doesn't mean to take it without a grain of salt, but at least foster communication and look at options to make it more attractive to everyone.

There should be an Epic only feedback/suggestions forum, but on the public facing general forum, you should be courting players, not driving them away. Use this as a chance to find out what non-PVP players want, you just might manage to do something you haven't yet.

Steal those players.

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How did Rolf and Oracle find a group of mature people to be GM's, many of whom have lasted years? I say it is realistic. It may not be easy, but it is very doable and would substantially help the game.

It has taken Rolf years to get the group of GMs he has, and they were very hard to find. There were also some who did not work out, had to be removed, or quit. And adding new ones is a very slow process, to be sure they will be any good at it. That's why setting up a council would be a mistake. It would take too long to get a good group together, only to have it fall apart over time as players got frustrated with council politics, or quit playing completely. Rolf would have to supervise it, and it could end up taking up too much time that should be spent working on the game.

All of you have great ideals about a council, but the reality is that it does not work. It's not looking at the worst in people, it's looking at the real in people. If you play this game you will always have some prejudices about how it should work, how it should be played. You won't be able to stop yourself completely from letting that out. it's human nature. It may be cynical, but expect the worst in people and they will never disappoint you. The only people that would be completely objective about anything would be people that do not play the game. Now how would we recruit them?

As other have pointed out, the GMs and CAs do peruse the forums, and good suggestions do get passed up to Rolf. Our suggestions do get through. Just because you don't see your idea become an update does not mean you were not heard. Some idea get rejected, some just take a while to implement. I once suggested making bells, and it took about 3 months, but we now have bells. I'm not popular, don't use IRC to talk to Rolf or anything, but I got heard. If my idea had to go through a committee, it may not have made it at all. No, I prefer the suggestion forum. We can all talk up a good idea, trash the bad ones, and let the Wurm staff see what is coming to the top to recommend to Rolf. The council would take that from us all.

Edited by Vroomfondel

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Right now it's either that or just Rolf. It's obvious the suggestion forum is largely (with some exceptions) ignored.

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I do not play on epic

Okay great that's all I read, thanks for posting!

Sorry, but is humorous that the biggest objectors to this are players not on Freedom who just want to voice their opinions because (Sorry, but this feels like the truth) they've nothing better to do on Freedom. Tinkerer, Ruger, Vroom, all people who play on Freedom not Epic yet want to post here just for the sake of posting. This is just typical Freedom to me, it's often Freedom players who have issues with suggested changes that do not apply to them at all, but they want to post so badly over anything at all. That's part of the reason this game doesn't go anywhere, and suggestion threads get ruined. The biggest posters here who've posted over and over and over rejecting any arguing are all Freedomers who are just looking to debate for the sake of debating.

Rolf doesn't know who is on Epic and who isn't, so when he goes into a thread and sees a bunch of Freedomers going -1 to ideas on Epic he doesn't realize the frustration and paradox it is. it's people like this that hinder game updates, and it's one of the reasons that there's a lot of aggression in the community and forums.

I think honestly we need to have a subsection in Epic for our own Suggestion & Ideas if it's going to keep ending up like this where people who've never stepped foot on the server want to speak up only for the sake of talking. The very fact that it says "Epic" in the topic head and yet people on Freedom click it is just comical to me. You think I click threads that are titled like "Freedom Zoning Revision plz"? Lol, no of course not, it's not my server, they're seperate clusters. Sadly though there are certain people, like Tinkerer for example, who just can't mind their own business and let other servers run themselves.

You guys objecting offer up no solutions, but you don't want to see improvements. A suggestion comes and you -1 it, but offer no type of reasonable counter suggestion to help Epic. At the end of the day in this thread I know who is on Epic and I'll read their post and take into consideration what they say, but people like Tinkerer, Ruger, and others I just skip it-- there's no sense or point in reading what jibberish they spew because they have no real insight to the server.

If the suggestion was named something like "change taming" something that effects allservers and code, yes I understand it being a shared thread, but I am talking about PvP things, missions, kingdoms, something completely different. You from Freedom shouldn't chirp in, you aren't apart of our server, so why come in here and act like it? Sad thing is I think if even someone posted a thread about CR nerf or Missions giving better rewards, or doing HotA, you would still see these same Freedom people coming in here saying their opinion.

Edited by Postes
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In other words you'll listen to your old pals from Wild. Typical Posteh.

But that's just it isn't it? Epic is dying and since you're the only ones left you deserve to call the shots. If it hasn't sunk in by now I don't think there's any future left for Epic.

Edited by Kraljtatov

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Yes, typical me-- oh wait you're new you don't know me.

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Freedom players need to have a voice in changes to Epic. Not even Rolf knows what effects will bleed through to Freedom.... even the freakin missions still show up on Freedom. It was due to people on Epic that I can't have a champ troll pull my large cart. It was due to people on Epic that that champ troll doesn't stay tame for more than a few hours.

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If you look at the graphs Epic was dropping in player count far before Mongols PMK was founded. It had been a steady decline for various reasons - I think some didn't like the PvP system, I think others didn't like missions, I think some didn't like Home servers. I think it was a variety of reasons, not just one. It's silly nonsense to say it was ONE single thing.

The proposed council doesn't say anything about only one kingdom being in it - again you read what you want, and you twist words to make posts look menacing. It's a collection of people from different kingdoms, not one. Who knows, maybe even you would be on it. I don't see any elitism with a group of players from different kingdoms discussing ideas that would help the server instead of letting just Rolf do it. Rolf himself doesn't play, so how is Rolf meant to know what is best? Last time he did that he was getting lied to by Rudie on IRC in the mornings and putting in some of the worst updates because he was easily manipulated and his trust betrayed. You can't listen to one person or one kingdom, that's why you need a view from different kingdoms + servers.

@Darth - The troll cart was fixed on Wild when MR kept doing it, so no you're wrong that had nothing to do with Epic. I do agree that updates bleed over and certain codes get shared and it ruins the game for people and that Rolf before anything should learn to split the code, but I don't see that happening (I have a hunch that's probably too hard).

Edited by Postes

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It was not fixed on Wild. That change did NOT come until after Epic was released, when champ trolls were destroying everyone.

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So postes = crusader?

From the sound of it you oppose all insight from freedom players that would draw freedom players to epic...

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Troll carts were on Wild when MR were using troll carts at PIZZA + OW battle. Anyone there would tell you this.

I don't hate anyone's insight, I hate when people come in and say -1 with no counter suggestions. The server is dying, and you don't know why because you're not there yet you act as if you have the answers because you "follow" it. Sorry, you don't. You're clueless, I would much rather hear from anyone in Epic-- even Joanavon, before I heard anything from you.

Edited by Postes

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Get some reading skills Posteh. He never said they weren't on Wild he said they weren't fixed until Epic.

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That update came way prior to Epic. Months really.

Edited by Postes

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