Navigation System

[Aelfred 15]

Hey all,

I'm sailing from time to time, because i stupid enough to deliver my sold ships even to far away Isles(indy here)-.-

Anyway, my idea is having an ingame navigation system for sailors and fishermen's friends.

A wurm-GPS so to say.

2 components are needed for this: the map itself and the locator, telling me where i am on this map.

1. map: would be available in the ship menu, on command or passenger side, if eating to much resources then only commander. Naturally openable while sailing.

2. dot-on-map: Telling me where i am on the map could happen by an additional device, and for this 2 suggestions:

a) i need to have a special item in my inventory, like a high-ql gold/silver item, jewelry for example, enchanted with a certain spell.

b)Can be simply accessable in the ship menu, without any further items or enchants, BUT you need a skill ( ) if you wanna use it: tracking 50 !

The only problem i would see is that maybe such a map could eat some resources while using it, not sure. Must not be a wonderful coloured map, but one should be able to find his path with it. Would be great if the map could(maybe via extra-button) load the actual deeds so the user can orientate where he is, but it would be necessary that someone updates them for the wurm-gps, if there is not a database where they stored anyway.

The additional precious(as i find) thing is: we would always have a updated and exact map, when it comes to deeds.

When i think about it, it could be a good system for travellers on land also, would make it unnecessary for a user to switch to the wiki and forth and back to manoeuvre through the world(if you got the skill fnar fnar).

With this system another source of comfortabilty and perfection would be added, bringing wurm more customers and worldwide recognition, and all i want for it, is: a winterskin for my client so i can live in eternal snow.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Aelfred

[Martynas5 435]

Better :

Map and range where possibly you are

Higher navigation skill lower range

Better ships and ql more navigation skill gain

Weather and other items also affect range

[frozencanadian 7]

I know it can be a pain when you get lost at sea while in a hurry, but basically this comes across to me as mini-map for captains. Which I am dead against. It would take comepletely away from the feeling of traveling in wurm as it stands now, an unguided adventure in which players are rewarded for knowing their ways around which they explored.

[EliasTheCrimson 348]

Please, no GPS. It is immersion-breaking, removes any sort of challenge in navigation by dumbing it down and "shrinks" the world by making it a no-brainer to traverse.

[Cornchips 3,037]

Even better: How 'bout none of this!

[Protunia 735]

-1

[Hussars 511]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I actually agree with Protunia on this one...

While it would make aspects of the navigation/sailing system easier, there is no other real challenges in this system (I don't count the weather since it effects everyone equally). So you'd be removing the one real challenge we have.

To be fair, yes sailors (or any explorer/trader/citizen curious about the world around them) would eventually develop a map system of some kind, and if paid enough, share their maps with others, but this opens a lot of other issues from both a PVP and PVE basis.

PVP

Accurate maps allow for more accurate raiding, as well as potentially removing the "surprise" behind the wall, like another wall/fence or a 300dirt drop. If this is kept to coastlines only, it still provides the ability for someone not familiar with an area to identify likely areas for raiding.

PVE

Not nearly as destructive, but depending on detail level, could still take some of the wonder and/or achievement out of the game for some players. Sure you could have the option to not use it, but knowing it was there kind of changes things.. it provides an easy "save" when you end up down a ravine or in the middle of a forest because you were walking and typing, or running from that champion troll.

For both PVP and PVE

Some folks don't like having their locations on a map known, the community maps provide a more detailed, but still general, idea of where someone who opts to disclose their deed's location is. Auto-mappers like you describe would only really be useful if every deed was required to be reported/displayed. I'm willing to bet a decent number of people, if given the option, would disable the deed reporting in the UI, which defeats what appears to be your intent.

And lets be honest, if a map is allowed for "sailors only" everyone else will be miffed that they don't get to use it as well, so you run further into the balance issues being a valid reason for this to not be included.

For different takes on this topic, please see the following:

http://forum.wurmonl.../page__hl__maps

Post #13 in this thread:

http://forum.wurmonl...aps#entry469636

Or this thread:

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/63833-local-and-world-maps-skill/page__p__629828__hl__cartography#entry629828

::Edited to include thread links::

Edited July 30, 2012 by Hussars

[Aelfred 15]

Well, many answers. Some i know from other topics.

If one needs the trouble he has by running around/sailing and not knowing where he is, getting lost, landing in deadly, monster filled sideways instead of your goal...if you need all this to have some fun in WO and call it challenge, then either you need another game or a doctor

[Plebian 89]

-1

I never had trouble sailing/traveling in Wurm and finding my way at all. It would seem to be a pretty wasted use of resources. This is especially true on the freedom maps. There are player created maps showing a remarkable amount of detail and making travel absurdly easy.

You also have map dumps now which allows land or sea navigation quite easily. I do not see the need for in game maps with a dot on your location.

Also given the technology of the day, how are you being pinpointed anyway? I could see adding a sextant and a skill in its use. Giving you angles and then you could conclude your location from these readings.

[Hussars 511]

Okay.. long reply I'm expecting a few TL;DR....

Well, many answers. Some i know from other topics.

If one needs the trouble he has by running around/sailing and not knowing where he is, getting lost, landing in deadly, monster filled sideways instead of your goal...if you need all this to have some fun in WO and call it challenge, then either you need another game or a doctor

Let me try this from a different side...

2 components are needed for this: the map itself and the locator, telling me where i am on this map.

1. map: would be available in the ship menu, on command or passenger side, if eating to much resources then only commander. Naturally openable while sailing.

2. dot-on-map: Telling me where i am on the map could happen by an additional device, and for this 2 suggestions:

a) i need to have a special item in my inventory, like a high-ql gold/silver item, jewelry for example, enchanted with a certain spell.

b)Can be simply accessable in the ship menu, without any further items or enchants, BUT you need a skill ( ) if you wanna use it: tracking 50 !

In your system:

• Would you be able to know where you are even if you had never been there before? If not, would players be able to trade maps to expand their own map coverage?
  

• For the spell, which priest would get it added to their list? Mag on PVP, and Vyn on PVE? Both on both server types?
  

• How do you know what is behind that tall stone wall (if this level of detail is added).. or that the deed over there that has no one moving about is named "X" if there were no signs posted? Can deed owner's opt out of the reporting?
  

• How large of viewable area, and how would you balance this for everyone (at least the majority) using the system? Skill based on Tracking gives the combat based characters and the general vet population a bit of a head start, and you will likely need to adjust the skill gains since this adds a powerful tool for PVP specifically. Meaning that new players are at an even greater disadvantage...
  

• Would you break the code between PVP and PVE servers (which potentially doubles the code to be developed and maintained just for the mapping system, not counting skills and other balancing)?
  

• If we expand this out to land navigation as well, would this be an inventory item, an option added to cart menus, or UI menus? Adding it to only vehicle menus limits it even further to more established players and removes the feature for those who are not on horse/cart/boat. (Yay! Horse eating mobs!)
  

These are some of the points a skill/item/ability like this raises for me. Nothing in here is game breaking by itself (well except the deed details and not being able to potentially opt out of being displayed)

[Perryn 79]

**Moved at request of OP**

Edited July 31, 2012 by Perryn

[Tekari 133]

Back when I started playing I was too much of a noob to get my hands on a compass... so I had to look at the sky to check for one of the moons and navigate by that.

And this is exactly what makes Wurm special... that you can use your environment to navigate and that you need your brain to do so.

Any kind of navigational system would take this away...

Sorry but a big -1 for this one.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Tekari

[Aelfred 15]

It was a topic brought up occasionally in the history of Wurm... but since the discovery of Papyrus and Reed Pens... it has been a pretty hot topic on the forums. Now before you hit me with the "Not Another Map Suggestion" Bat... please know... this is taking it in a bit of a different approach to determining if maps can be fitted into Wurm in the right way.

There are obviously two camps on this.. yah and nay. For the most part... the nay bring immersion and pvp issues to the table... the yah bring a immersion and its a valuable and realistic tool to the table. Both are right.

But lets stop a moment and look at what is already here. The fact is... there is a server dump of each map available to people. People use these maps... find visual landmarks... and put markers on their own version of the map to help them along the way for future use.

At this point... I'm going to say this is a multiple step suggestion and the way I am going to approach it is by outlining each step. I will ask any responses please indicate each step and where you stand on it individually.... even where you agree upon up to a certain step but no further.

Step 1.

So lets break it down to the simplest form. Take the map-dump that already exists on the wiki... and bring it into the game. Not in a GPS/HUD/GUI way... but one where there is a piece of Papyrus in your inventory you need to click to open which takes up your whole screen. <-- This is important because it mimics what currently exists.

As well....no markers... no player added content... no zoom. Simply the map-dump that already exists... available in game without having to tab out to look at it. It can not be minimized (like an inventory window).

Step 2.

Now lets add a little to this. Lets say instead of just Papyrus... you need a "Navigation Set". this consists of a few player made items. Papyrus, Reed Pen, Sextant, Compass and 2 Calipers (these are the V shaped things ). Add all of these components and you create a single item called a "Navigation Set" and when clicked... acts like the Papyrus in step 1 however with the addition of... you can not be moving when you use it and the QL determines how fast you will open the map... very much like the mechanics of a compass working.

The only change from step 1 is that you can minimize the map window. However... any movement at all and the full map or the minimized map disappears and you have to start the whole "Opening the Map" sequence all over again.

At this point... we are mimicking what already exists... but making it act more like a compass instead of just tabing out to look at the map on the wiki.

Step 3.

Now lets throw into the mix Cartography skill. Everything in step 2 happens as it is explained... however.. based on your Cartography skill... only a certain amount of the map will be seen. 10 skill = 10% of the map dump which encircles you. 20 skill = 20% of the map dump... 30 skill = 30% of the map dump... etc etc.

Cartography skill is increased each time you use a Navigation Set.

Step 4.

Enhanced Cartography skill. Clearly the only controversial step... as steps 1 thru 3 basically take what currently exists with map dumps and simply adds them to the game with a bit of flavor. However... a lot of these abilities happen right now with how player made maps are made with the exception of level 90.

Skill level 60: different shape markers can be added to the map... no text.

Skill level 70: markers can have text added to it.

Skill level 80: an option to activate a blank piece of papyrus and copy what currently is showing on your Navigation Set.

Skill level 90... a small dot displays where you are on the map. This does not stay however and once you move and the map closes your location is lost and isn't replaced till you reopen the map and your new current location is shown.

Even by the time you get to step 4... I think all sides can fairly say it balances the pros or the cons you may think maps may bring to the game.

Can you tell me what this has to do with my suggestion ? I suggest you open a own thread for you own topic and leave me alone with the whiners and masochists in here

[Perryn 79]

Can you tell me what this has to do with my suggestion ? I suggest you open a own thread for you own topic and leave me alone with the whiners and masochists in here

Anyway, my idea is having an ingame navigation system for sailors and fishermen's friends.

A wurm-GPS so to say.

2 components are needed for this: the map itself and the locator, telling me where i am on this map.

1. map: would be available in the ship menu, on command or passenger side, if eating to much resources then only commander. Naturally openable while sailing.

2. dot-on-map: Telling me where i am on the map could happen by an additional device, and for this 2 suggestions:

I did read your post... and I put forward my input based on your suggestion... detailing the mechanics related to it as well as some reasoning behind why I was suggesting what I was suggesting

It has everything to do with what you are suggesting. But its your thread... so....

Edited July 31, 2012 by Perryn

[Aelfred 15]

Okay.. long reply I'm expecting a few TL;DR....

Let me try this from a different side...

In your system:

• Would you be able to know where you are even if you had never been there before? If not, would players be able to trade maps to expand their own map coverage?
  

• For the spell, which priest would get it added to their list? Mag on PVP, and Vyn on PVE? Both on both server types?
  

• How do you know what is behind that tall stone wall (if this level of detail is added).. or that the deed over there that has no one moving about is named "X" if there were no signs posted? Can deed owner's opt out of the reporting?
  

• How large of viewable area, and how would you balance this for everyone (at least the majority) using the system? Skill based on Tracking gives the combat based characters and the general vet population a bit of a head start, and you will likely need to adjust the skill gains since this adds a powerful tool for PVP specifically. Meaning that new players are at an even greater disadvantage...
  

• Would you break the code between PVP and PVE servers (which potentially doubles the code to be developed and maintained just for the mapping system, not counting skills and other balancing)?
  

• If we expand this out to land navigation as well, would this be an inventory item, an option added to cart menus, or UI menus? Adding it to only vehicle menus limits it even further to more established players and removes the feature for those who are not on horse/cart/boat. (Yay! Horse eating mobs!)
  

These are some of the points a skill/item/ability like this raises for me. Nothing in here is game breaking by itself (well except the deed details and not being able to potentially opt out of being displayed)

I suggest you ask all this the devs, if the show interest in my - as it looks- not interesting suggestion. No reason why i should work out the perfect system(and code it on your wish, sure) when all are more the type of pain and torture.

"Would you break the code between PVP and PVE servers (which potentially doubles the code to be developed and maintained just for the mapping system, not counting skills and other balancing)?"

Drinking is better if only in the evening, lol.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Aelfred

[Hussars 511]

I suggest you ask all this the devs, if the show interest in my - as it looks- not interesting suggestion. No reason why i should work out the perfect system(and code it on your wish, sure) when all are more the type of pain and torture.

"Would you break the code between PVP and PVE servers (which potentially doubles the code to be developed and maintained just for the mapping system, not counting skills and other balancing)?"

Drinking is better if only in the evening, lol.

First, I take offense at what appears to be you implying I'm drunk or under the influence in some way.

Second, I never said I was opposed to the idea, only that these were issues that had been raised previously that you should try to address in your suggestion.

On that note, when the topic devolves to implied and/or direct insults, especially when you asked for feed back, you have already "lost" any good will or support you may have had from me.

[Reylaark 1,100]

This is not something I would want for myself. I love getting lost, and it has happened.

It makes it much more worthwhile for me to actually pay attention when I'm sailing having to correlate the terrain I see with what is on player made maps. Or having to head to shore hoping to find a village name that is on the map.

Same thing travelling on land, it's easy to get turned around. The compass helps, otherwise one could find a token to see North, or as mentioned keep mental note of landmarks/moon/sun etc.

That's just me though (and apparently others), but if I have the option to turn it off and it seems like something the devs would want to implement... wouldn't really bother me that others might be using such a thing.

• Would you break the code between PVP and PVE servers (which potentially doubles the code to be developed and maintained just for the mapping system, not counting skills and other balancing)?
  

However, this is a pretty important part of it. I don't compete with anyone for anything really.

If I did, whether through PvP, or market pressures, or any other number of things I can't think of... I'd be forced to use every advantage my opponent is using. Under those conditions, it would mean having to conform to the easier way if I want to continue competing. I think that would take away part of the charm I find in Wurm... though not sure what the PvP feeling is towards charm in general

Edit: oh, and just so nobody gets the wrong idea, I haven't had a drink in 23 months, 2 days, 10 hours and 28 minutes... give or take

Edited August 1, 2012 by Reylaark