Highway Rule

[Kraljtatov 34]

I'm not even gonna go there... you're clearly beating around the bush of this thread; restating the rules over and over again. Yes, we know the rules, thanks for checking. Unfortunately we're trying to change the rules if it wasn't obvious so if you can't grasp that please leave.

[Protunia 735]

It's called easement.

One thing about this I want to make clear....You cannot build Highways across lands that you do not own without Permission in Real Life. If you do not believe me go ahead and try to build one across the United States wihtout asking the Government or The People who own and living on and around that land try it and see how far you get. So you can toss out that real life bit there about easements as well I think.

Again there needs to be another rule added for "Local" area's of players to protect their rights as well.

D/ Players cannot build highways to or through other players area's/deed's without first consulting with the local population and asking for permission from a GM.( Application to conduct any of these activities may be sent to GM for approval)

Edited July 28, 2012 by Protunia

[Gimli 10]

We know the rule, it is a very clear and a lot of us think it is a good rule and do not want it changed

[Kadore 926]

Out of curiousity what is the punishment for the damage done to a highway such as pictured in this thread, I'm not sure you can physically force the person to have the road repaired in a few days, a week or any timeframe.

Is this a bannable offence, loss of the deed, hiring people to do it at 10i per action and filing a lawsuit against the person that has done the damage, Wurm jail?

[Protunia 735]

We know the rule, it is a very clear and a lot of us think it is a good rule and do not want it changed

Facts are if you are going to make rules forbidding removal of Highways then there must also be rules about building them like how and where and when otherwise you enable players to grief other players simply by building highways where ever they choose for what ever reason good or bad.

Please tell us why players should be allowed to build a Highway or several for that matter to or through anyone else's area and intrude on their game play without asking for Permission first? How can you say that only a person who builds a highway has rights to those tiles and the ability to build on them as they see fit without regard for anyone else and then have those tiles protected forever?

( and yes making tiles unusable in someone else's area is an intrusion. )

If the person PAID for those tiles in some way I could understand otherwise this highway rule needs to protect all players not just those who build them.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Protunia

[Reylaark 1,100]

It's called easement.

There is that. There is also Eminent Domain which in a way could apply here.

Kind of thinking that having a chat with the locals seems like the right thing to do even if there is no rule to do so. After all, you might make some new friends...

Sandboxiness of communicating before doing something shouldn't really be a problem since it isn't necessarily sandboxy that someone cannot alter something they themselves built on their own private land.

I do understand the need for the rule. I just think there are cases where personal discretion might be appropriate regarding the initial intent. I rather doubt Jerry woke up one morning and decided to ruin somebody's day.

As far as people grumbling that they can't loot the corpses on Jerry's deed... really? What's wrong with people? lol Jerry built a tower that these very people probably use to stay safe. I know his templar saved my life many times when I lived up there.

I can understand the wtf moment and the shock of encountering such a change in regular routine but I honestly believe this wasn't done out of malice in any way, shape or form.

[ReaverKane 363]

We know the rule, it is a very clear and a lot of us think it is a good rule and do not want it changed

Problem with the rule its that its too vague. According to that rule a 2x3 paved area can be called a highway, and thus be protected. The rule needs to be a bit more specific on who gets to make a highway where, and under what circumstances a road is a road, or a highway. Just making it 2 tiles wide shouldn't be enough.

Here's an example, a deed owner makes a "main street" on his deed, which is 2 tiles wide cobblestone. He likes that, and he makes a extension of that road towards a mine he made off-deed. From that point on, that road can be considered a Highway, he loses the right to KoS players, and can't have locked gates on that road. It was never his intention to make a protected highway, but now he loses that right.

Another example:

Player A griefed player B, player B has him KoS, player A makes a 2 tile road from his deed, or from a nearby highway to player B's deed. From that point on, Player B is forced to remove player A from his KoS, because deeds at the end of a Highway can't have KoS.

I don't know and don't care about what happened to the OP. But there should be more specific rules to Highways.

[Kediec 280]

In regard to your instance of Player A making a 2 tile road that ends in players B's deed to " grief " him/her , it is already counted for in the rules :-

There follows one exception to this; If your deed is the terminus of a single highway, you may then position locked gates on deed across that highway providing KoS griefing rules remain adhered to.

Those KoS griefing rules are that you leave a 1 tile gap between the edge of your Deed ( not perimeter ) before any locked gates / fences , to allow for escape of anyone who is on KoS .

[Tinkerer 107]

Building what is considered a 'highway' is just too quick and easy - just one brick per tile. Not only that, but there is a real lack of options when it comes to paving simple roads. Everyone generally uses cobble because of its ease. They probably don't even plan to make them 'highways' just roads, wide enough that its not a p.i.t.a. to drive a large cart down without hitting the verge all the time.

At the very least Highways should require something more more substantial to be deemed as protected highway over a simply being a 'nice and useful road'. Properly terraformed would be a good start, but I'd rather see a more costly material involved. This would also likely mean the added construction time of said highway would allow local people more time to notice it's construction and take issue with it. Even a single tile wide road across a sandy beach could be deemed a highway.

I could in theory (and pretty quickly) pave a two tile wide through someones perimeter right against their deed edge (so long as it linked to another deed or highway) in order to force them to remove any KoS they may have had active on their deed. Without needing any permission to do so. It could also be used to somewhat obstruct any expansion plans they had without them first rerouting it.

I know we don't own perimeter, it is there as a buffer, but surely as a deed owner, you should have the right to prevent people building highways through it at least.

[Ruger 610]

I know we don't own perimeter, it is there as a buffer, but surely as a deed owner, you should have the right to prevent people building highways through it at least.

Building, terraforming, anything, should not be allowed in perimeter imo....

[JudusX 199]

the whole argument is about forced highways on deed. the fact that i want to make life easier for me on deed by building a nice road system through it shouldn't make my roads viable to become a highway. We know we cant make roads on other players deeds but we can connect them and if a deed has a road going out the other side then his deed will not be the terminating point. Yes the rules are clear but it needs to protect the deed owner. the idea about the perimeter would work but that would mean i can never make a road out of my deed more than 1 tile, which still punishes the the deed owner.

[Tinkerer 107]

well - I suppose you could - if you stuck to using gravel or felt extravagant and use floor boards instead. neither of those feature in the 'highway' ruleset. But yes.. deed owners do seem to be getting the short straw

[Kianga 219]

If you make as wide as you like streets on your deed - and make the last one or two tiles on deed a pass-through of one tile (without sand next to them) up to the edge of that deed - would your on-deed wide roads suddenly be considered to be highway as soon as anyone builds a highway up to your one-tile wide entrances on two or more sides of your deed (so leading to, and on another side from, your deed and linking to highway-networks on both ends)? If not (which seems to be what the rules tell me, unless I am wrong) then wouldnt this precaution (of always making one-tile passthroughs on your deeds edges just before going off-deed) at least prevent any on-deed wider roads from ever suddenly becoming highways from here on ? This wouldnt help current issues of course, but would it prevent any new issues like those being discussed here?

Edited July 29, 2012 by Kianga

[JudusX 199]

yes i could make that one tile at the border of my deed at both ends but does that sound fair? why should i be afraid to make a 2 lane road to my deed edge. if i do i loose the right to own my tiles i paid for and am currently paying monthly upkeep on.... now that just doesn't sound right but its how the rules are set.

[JudusX 199]

Griefing

Griefing is any harassment

stealing my deed tiles would fit under that rule. i would like to hear otherwise.

[bdew 2,462]

Again there needs to be another rule added for "Local" area's of players to protect their rights as well.

D/ Players cannot build highways to or through other players area's/deed's without first consulting with the local population and asking for permission from a GM.( Application to conduct any of these activities may be sent to GM for approval)

-1.

Players already can't build a highway inside your deed (unless your permissions are set to allow them to), anything outside your deeded tiles that you pay for shouldn't require any kind of permission from you in the rules.

If you want to modify your deed that has a highway passing through - follow the rules, ask a GM, figure out a reasonable detour around for the highway and build it, then change your deed as your heart pleases (in this order) and i'm sure you will have no problems.

Edited July 29, 2012 by bdew

[Reylaark 1,100]

I'd agree that having too many rules covering every angle would become burdensome.

I do still contend it's a good idea to have a chat with the locals when building through some place but that might just be more of a cultural thing.

I'd also say that so long as Oracle and the GM's can feel comfortable adhering to the trust they put into their staff, it really might be a good idea to give the GM's enforcing these rules some discretion to drop by a complaint and simply ask, "what's the plan here mate?"

There's a big difference with someone modifying their deed to prepare for a public tunnel that would benefit the whole community and someone who tears up highways just to annoy others. Pretty sure GM's have enough good sense and experience to recognize each situation and act accordingly rather than having a hard and fast rule.

[ReaverKane 363]

-1.

Players already can't build a highway inside your deed (unless your permissions are set to allow them to), anything outside your deeded tiles that you pay for shouldn't require any kind of permission from you in the rules.

If you want to modify your deed that has a highway passing through - follow the rules, ask a GM, figure out a reasonable detour around for the highway and build it, then change your deed as your heart pleases (in this order) and i'm sure you will have no problems.

They can build to, even if they can't build through. And highway rules still chastise deed owners at the end of a highway, this is the main reason why i never built a highway on my public clay road.

I'd agree that having too many rules covering every angle would become burdensome.

I do still contend it's a good idea to have a chat with the locals when building through some place but that might just be more of a cultural thing.

I'd also say that so long as Oracle and the GM's can feel comfortable adhering to the trust they put into their staff, it really might be a good idea to give the GM's enforcing these rules some discretion to drop by a complaint and simply ask, "what's the plan here mate?"

There's a big difference with someone modifying their deed to prepare for a public tunnel that would benefit the whole community and someone who tears up highways just to annoy others. Pretty sure GM's have enough good sense and experience to recognize each situation and act accordingly rather than having a hard and fast rule.

A "law" or a "rule" that doesn't cover up every angle is flawed, and the loopholes it leaves can, and will be, used to purposes other than those intended by the original rule. Its not to hard to improve on what is done, no law should be set in stone, and any reasonable person would acknowledge the need to refine the rules so that they can't be used against the people it should be protecting (which IT DOES).

The KoS thing on deeds at the end of a Higway, for instance. Apparently from the moment someone makes a highway to a deed, which is there to facilitate the villagers and allies traveling to that deed, apparently means that from that point on, the villager also has to welcome enemies in...

I mean, take my example, i tool the time, and the dirt cost, of making a coastal road to a clay pit just outside my deed, that road passed through my deed, which was, and remains, open for travel (although we have some palisades, they're unlocked, unless in some specific times). Please do note, that i always use a boat to get the clay, since its kinda more convenient, that road was built so that neighbors could use it. So two weeks after i made it, that road had some tiles lifted and dug out a couple of times. So i talked to a GM, only alternative was to forfeit my choice to KoS people so that i could continue to provide a service to the community. So basically i was being punished for helping out other people.

And this is the biggest flaw about highways, because they take away our rights if we choose to help other people out.

(Incidently, i left the road as it was, i planned on walling it into a enclosure, but so far no one else griefed it, so its staying for now).

[bdew 2,462]

So i talked to a GM, only alternative was to forfeit my choice to KoS people so that i could continue to provide a service to the community.

Well, yeah, you can't have your cake and eat it at the same time, either you get the protection of being a highway, or you get to KoS people (which is useless btw in it's current state, so i'm not sure what's the fuss is about anyway). That's the point of those rules.

No one is being punished for anything, no one is forcing you to build a highway or to make your deed part of one, it's your choice.

[Gumbo 1,563]

I ran into a problem with someone building a "highway" through my "area" without any permission from me or the GMs. I actually had a GM come by months before to tell me what roads in my area were "protected" and what ones I could modify without GM permission. I was informed that there were exactly 3 roads that I could not modify because they were protected, they were all pointed out to me. The road in question was never mentioned as a protected highway (because it never existed). What the griefers "trick" was, was to flat out lie to the GM team about the road being there before my deed was. When I brought the argument up that I had a GM survey the land a few months before, I was told that didn't count for anything cuz the GM prolly missed that road. (so much for surveys). Luckily for me I pulled up a copy of Artashes detailed map which proved the other person a liar, it showed no road in that area. Unfortunately again, the GM said that he actually saw a road, where one absolutely doesn't exist on the map. (tough to beat that eh). How I finally got the person to stop was to put my own GM call in. Seems the person trying to ruin my game experience had 3 deeds in the area, all fenced off, and no road leading around the deeds, except the one main highway I suggested be used by the griefer from the very start. I never heard back from the GM team after that. The road the liar claimed was there, mysteriously disappeared.

I post this info so the folks trying to make a new highway system can consider preventing against this type of harassment as well.

I still have the logs (*.HTM files) from the old forum with the discussion I had with the griefer, before the griefer started to delete all his/her posts when he/she knew they had been proved to have lied.

[Protunia 735]

What needs to be clarified here is does anyone have a right to build a highway to a deed on perimeter or build a highway on perimeter to a Highway period? Since we are going to get into perimeter and what is or not allowed.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Protunia

[Ruger 610]

Yes perimeter is not owned by you except as a buffer to keep people from building houses on top of you. I don't agree with it. I think their should be zero building allowed in perimeters that includes terraforming, fences, etc. but that would require work to the current deed system and their are far more important things that need done first.

[Protunia 735]

Yes perimeter is not owned by you except as a buffer to keep people from building houses on top of you. I don't agree with it. I think their should be zero building allowed in perimeters that includes terraforming, fences, etc. but that would require work to the current deed system and their are far more important things that need done first.

It was that way at one time before the deed changes. Just wanted to clarify this again to make sure Perimeter is not owned or controlled as it seems there is always confusion about this since the deed change.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Protunia

[Oracle 318]

As per the rules

Perimeters:

Perimeters are considered as part of the wilderness.

Firstly we have to clarify that the deed perimeter you pay for is only an insurance to possibly expand your existing deed. It does not give the deed holder ownership of that area.

Also you can only expand out until your perimeter touches another deeds perimeter. So in that respect if your perimeter already touches another perimeter you cannot expand unless you have purchased extra tiles then the default 5 tiles. If you have purchased extra tiles then you will have the ability to expand until you reach the default 5 tile perimeter.

[joedobo 1,187]

Deed owners shouldn't have to ask to change anything on their deed, even in situation where a player deeds over a road.

I'd like to see a way for players to buy protection for and designate tiles as road. The per tile cost would be 20i to buy and then 5i per month to maintain. The protection is applied one tile at a time with a protection object. This object is then is droped on the road near its associated tiles and upkeep is payed into it.

An option to upkeep could be a fixed cost "wand" and the protection wears off after some time. Example, 80i per a tile for one year and the ability to protect 50 tiles for a grand total of 40c

To limit their use for only roads, these things can't be built: fences, buildings, and furniture ( no push on either). With this change the road rules would be removed. Any non-payed road can be ripped up because game mechanic protections protect and give players a fair way to designate land as highway.

imo:

- Deed owners should have the highest priority. Paying customers should come first when it comes to land control.

- OT somewhat but, Perimeter is part of your deed and you pay for the right to control your deed. Its second nature to assume you control what you payed for. This phase is like legal ease fine print many don't read in a contract: "You don't own perimeter", fact - you payed for your deed and perimeter is part of your deed. The truth of it all, its been decided players shouldn't be able to turn perimeter tiles into deed-like tiles. Severely limiting the control of perimeter is apparently a way to achieve this goal. This is why I think it should just be removed. I don't buy perimeter anymore because I think its a ripoff and a huge griefing potential. When custom deeds came into being I argued endlessly to get perimeter. I thought that paying customers would have priority. If I had know that the GMs where going to apply rules as they do (what I think are twisted and wrong), would have sided with Rolf's original view of only having deed tiles.

Edited July 29, 2012 by joedobo