Gold/silver Sellers Unite [Merged Topic /mod]

[Kraljtatov 34]

Such is the problem with a free market. You can create a consortium in the gold/silver market if you wish but you'll still have to compete with individual buyers and sellers.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Kraljtatov

[Gorwst 129]

This has nothing to do with anybody's gaming habits or price fixing for profit gouging. Has to do with avoiding the silver collapse.

By definition, price fixing by the people who are making a profit from the thing is entirely about maintaining the safety of their profit. Trying to argue that you, as a coin seller, are trying to help Wurm society as a whole comes across as rather false and a bit disingenuous.

The silver market isn't going to "collapse" unless the supply of coins goes totally out of kilter. In most games, this happens because there is an unlimited amount of money, so prices skyrocket since experienced characters have tons of currency and are both willing to spend large sums on things that used to be cheap and also unwilling to sell their items for those smaller sums because they don't see the value in it. (This is a perfectly natural reaction to the inflated money supply.)

Fortunately in Wurm, there's no free money, so older and more experienced players can't accumulate lots of "free" coins...

Oh, wait, there is. Trader milking. Once you've recovered your initial investment, it's free money. Forever. There's a opportunity cost in the making the stuff to sell to the trader and monitoring your ratio, but based on the number of people selling bulk coinage, these are clearly manageable.

There's also the CoinLab thing, though I don't put a lot of stock in that myself.

So, while I don't expect to see Word of Warcraft type price inflation in Wurm, I do expect that the value of money being sold for real world cash to decline over time, as you claim it historically has. It will reach a kind of bottom point, because sooner or later those of you who supply the coin will find it's not worth your time, you'll drop out of the business, and the supply will lower. When there is less supply than demand, the price will go back up and reach at least a temporary balance point. Economics 101.

Barring, of course, those sellers who only want a fast buck and sell below market value because they want it gone now, now, now.

[Tinkerer 107]

Sorry, but I think I am greatly missing a step in your logic somewhere. What has this got to do with stabilising Wurm's ingame economics? The only issue here is how much 'profit' you make instead of Rolf.

Why is this affecting the Wurm economics? The gold coin is already in the game. Regardless of what you sell it for, you are just transferring ownership of the 'already existing' gold coin to a different player. Money has not got in or out of Wurm during this process. What am I missing here... ? This 'gold coin' isn't being added to the Wurm economy in any way. Personally I hope you get less than 40e for it. People farming silver to make real money are really just stealing from Rolf's potential income. Whether you get 40e or 85e, it's still lost money to Rolf, but the coin within the game is the same.

What (if anything) is damaging the wurm economy is your 'silver farming' not what it's worth on the black market.

[Vetarnic 41]

Disgusting mentality where the only goal is to "cash out". If that's what you want, there's Entropia Universe across the street, and I'm tired of encountering your kind all over Wurm.

While you're all going woe-is-me over not getting what you consider a suitable exchange rate, Rolf should ban this sort of trading in the first place; it's not in his interest, and I don't see why he tolerates it.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Vetarnic

[Tryfaen 709]

The reason why gold ends up getting sold for less than 1:1 is because there is no cash out option. As long as people can't cash out the price will always be less than1:1

[Niclamus 17]

By default currency is only worth what people perceive it's value to be.

To me, the value should be measured in time. 1 month is only worth 5euro, therefore so is 10 silver to me. or 50e/gold.

And that's where the market will settle as it should. When it becomes CHEAPER for me to pay for premium through buying currency, I will join that market as will many others until it settles out at 50e/gold. When its at even price or cheaper for premium I'll keep supporting the game directly through Rolf for my premium time.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Niclamus

[Brahma 21]

Thank you to everybody that contributed intelligently (and without insults).

Also thank you Jberg for merging into the correct forum.

Lastly, Gorwst fleshed it out perfectly, yet if everybody pays attention what he described is by definition a collapse (which is what this post is supposed to try to address). It has happened in other games with less economic leaks than Wurm, the difference being Wurm does not have 11 million subscribers to weather a collapse comfortably.

Again, thank you all for contributing.

[Aetherwalker 1,863]

Look what you've done, now people are being silly about it: http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/64516-1-gold-coin-85-euros/

[Kraljtatov 34]

You can raise the price, but we'll just buy elsewhere. I'd rather buy from the shop than give someone the satisfaction of making a killing in euros.

[Petbe 0]

There have been some decent points on both sides, but some comments don't even make rational sense!

You can raise the price, but we'll just buy elsewhere. I'd rather buy from the shop than give someone the satisfaction of making a killing in euros.

lol

[Reylaark 1,100]

By default currency is only worth what people perceive it's value to be.

To me, the value should be measured in time. 1 month is only worth 5euro, therefore so is 10 silver to me. or 50e/gold.

And that's where the market will settle as it should. When it becomes CHEAPER for me to pay for premium through buying currency, I will join that market as will many others until it settles out at 50e/gold. When its at even price or cheaper for premium I'll keep supporting the game directly through Rolf for my premium time.

When you buy 1 month, worth 5 euro and thereby 50e/gold directly from Code Club:

You are getting that month, and you are also purchasing an added value by financing Code Club. In doing so, the product you've just purchased (playtime in wurm) gains added value through upgrades and contributions from coders made possible by your purchase. In the long run, this is a compounding effect, with every purchase you make directly from Code Club, future value increases.

When you buy gold from a player:

No value is added to the game itself. The money is merely being recirculated and contrary to the belief such transactions benefit Code Club, money is not removed from the game. It is recycled through King to trader to player (deed money goes to direct to the King. and the king will distribute new funds to traders...The main source of the kings funds is settlement upkeep). Therefore, the value of coin purchased from a player should be the value of coin bought from Code Club minus all financial benefit to Code Club and subsequent improvement of the game itself.

With that in mind, the value of coin from a player simply cannot be equal to 50e/gold, it has to be less. How much less may be subjective to how much you value progress in the environment you choose to play, but it's a variable that shouldn't be overlooked nonetheless.

A question for Brahma:

What do you suppose would be the effect on Wurm's economy and the state of the game should players choose to no longer buy in-game currency from players but only directly from Code Club?

[Kadore 926]

It's great to say buying gold from Rolf puts money in his pocket, you support the game, provide money for a well in Africa, donate to find a kitten a good home etc. etc., in reality all coin bought from Rolf adds more coin to the game also lowering the value of current coins in circulation.

You tend to see more coins being sold by older players because after a long time playing, you run out of things to spend it on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudflation its hardly a new phoenominum.

Honestly it doesnt make a difference to me as I use coin earned in game for deed upkeep etc. and tend to buy my premium from the shop as it is a better deal.

[Lordcuvious 16]

Look what you've done, now people are being silly about it: http://forum.wurmonl...-coin-85-euros/

I saw that and it made me laugh but someone did buy for 70.. Or so it says so maybe there is a method to his madness.

But in all honesty, there is no collapse what the hell are you on about I'm sure I saw last year gold coins being sold off various different people for 60e-70e and it's still like that nowerdays. It's not going to collapse unless people horde it but what would be the point in hording currency the whole point is you buy it to fund your deed, buy equipment or pay players to help build your deed or project!

Edited July 19, 2012 by Lordcuvious

[KellyTxX 614]

Ive sold ALOT of gold coins for about 55 to 62 euro at the most. I guess you can blame me for this ;o though to be honest i dont see whats wrong with what im doing

Edited July 19, 2012 by KellyTxX

[Kegan 3,926]

I don't see why anyone should ever sell for less then 60-70e just look at the sales the last few days one for 70e and one for 65e i just sold one the other day for $75 usd and it was about 61-62e at the time.

Sure you might have a hard time selling but it is not the price most of the time it is that you are new to the game and no one knows if they can trust you or not.

Edit: I also understand that anything higher then 60-70e is not a big enough savings to merit the risk involved.

Maybe Rolf needs to add a real money auction house to the game and take a cut like D3 and many other games are going to start doing?

Edited July 19, 2012 by Kegan

[Kraljtatov 34]

Please, no more ways to get real life money tangled with the game.

[validate 598]

i'm going to throw my 2iron coins in.

the first 3 times i bought it was about 75eu. and the eu vs canadian $ was bad =$117.75 cnd

the next 3ish was 65eu and the cnd was a bit better $93.13.

the past 3 months 50-55eu and the cnd $ strong now. ha ha US. $62.5 cnd

the first 3 i had to wait every 3 months to buy. tthe next three same thing. but now i can buy at least 1 per month. this is very helpfull to me as my deeds upkeeps cost me over 33s per month now.

in the past 6 months i was however bought 3 gold coins right from wurmshop at the 100eu. as i want to support the game but also no one was selling at the time. i think that has a bit to do with the cost drop lately. not as many seller. a yr ago 5-10 selling per week all at 70-85eu . ya just wait a week it will sell. but now with only a few sellers per week and not many buyers the need to sell cheaper to gain eu faster is needed.

I also think with the lower prices. the newer hooked players might be willing to buy and spend ingame silver at our shops and bulk orders. deeds ect... this helps the whole game out in the end.

love being Canadian right now. and i work for walmart so i'm buying a ton of stocks in US$'s right now too. :crossing fingers for eco to stay the same world wide:

[Keldun 335]

If someone sells me a gold under 50€ I'll use it to buy premium and counter the inflation inside the game.

So someone has to buy more from Rolf (;

[spellcast 983]

I wont bother to get into the argument about the moral merits of trying to fix the price of a gold.

I wont bother because there is no point.

you can't.

hang on, let me make that a bit bigger for you.

YOU CAN'T

not because of any game rule, or anything like that, but just because there is no way to corner the market on gold coins. There are no real restrictions on who can get into the selling market, and people being people there will always be someone, or several someones, willing to undercut you.

We get these threads all the time about coins, or tools, or gems, or enchants, or boats, or... well, or basically anything sold in the game, someone starts one because this segment of the game economy is crashing, prices are falling and we need to do something to stop it and need to do it NOW...

and the end result is always the same.

While it is perfectly possible for you and everyone else in the game today (we'll call you guys group 1) to decide that "yes, we will not go below price A for item Z"

Tomorrow a new player (call him player 2) joins, undercuts you, makes a decent chunk of money, tells his friend "hey, group 1 wont sell for less than A, so we can sell for B, and no one will buy from them."

The day after that, another new player joins, sees player 2 making a killing, and undercuts him.

see where this is going yet?

so, while you may have the best intentions in the wurld with this thread, just be aware that you aren't going to accomplish anything. There is no way to get a stable minimum price in a game like wurm, and that's just a fact. There will always be players with enough time on their hands to put in whatever boring electronic work is required to undercut you.