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Vetarnic

The Tragedy Of The Commons, In One Picture

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I thought all the starter deeds had the only cut old trees setting in place?

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Solution; a gm ran deed near the starter town with nothing but trees on it, with the setting "allow cutting of old trees".

Why not just set the starter town itself then to allow cutting of "Old" trees only? Then community members can replant with the knowledge that all the young/mature ones will actually have a chance to grow and the deed is never entirely deforested?

Though actually I wonder if that "Old tree" setting works as intended. As far as I can tell, it actually allows the cutting of any trees, of any age. But I may be testing it wrong. Never mind, I had both "Old Trees" and "Forestry" checked at the same time.

Edited by Brash_Endeavors

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Why not just set the starter town itself then to allow cutting of "Old" trees only? Then community members can replant with the knowledge that all the young/mature ones will actually have a chance to grow and the deed is never entirely deforested?

Esert has this setting enabled; I dont know about the other starter towns.

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I think best bet would be to allow cutting low ql sprouts with anything sharp, kind of like it works today with cutting grass. Still not sure that newbies would bother actually replanting sprouts though.

Unless the "old trees" setting resolved this issue.

Edited by Zcul
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I believe if you enable only "old trees" but not forestry, then they couldn't actually pick sprout? :wacko:

They can still plant sprouts with gardening though so perhaps if a chest of sprouts is placed amongst the old trees, it would spark their attention. Maybe a sign or two saying "Shovel, pack, cultivate, activate sprout, plant." Too much?

I was lucky to know someone who had played a long time when I joined and thus taught me about these things but even though I did pay attention to the tutorial, I depended on him quite a bit to fill in the gaps. This is especially true when it comes to any etiquette and cultural norms particular to Wurm.

"Noobs" may very well not have nefarious intentions but may just need the right coaching?

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I think best bet would be to allow cutting low ql sprouts with anything sharp, kind of like it works today with cutting grass. Still not sure that newbies would bother actually replanting sprouts though.

Unless the "old trees" setting resolved this issue.

It would be better to give a low QL sickle when starting a new player.

As far as this thread?? You post a Sign saying DO NOT CUT!!! that is on you really sorry to say. I will bet its not new players at all cutting these trees for the most part, but existing players doing it simply because of the Sign there.

Also you do fail when planting sprouts when you first start playing more than not at times. Having trees grow from stumps 100% of the time like a sprout was planted might help some of the chopping down of trees. The placing of signs like here will not stop anything at all and most likely encourage it.

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Vetarnic,

I remember the sign and I actually found it informative, if a little worrying. As a newbie, you have to cut, and trying to follow the sign... not cut unless you find out how to plant AND manage to get it all done (sickle, learn how, learn why it doesn't "work", find sprout, succeed planting), is *not* entirely realistic.

That said. One thing that is missing is simply information, for new players. Please all, take a good read at the post of a new player in this thread: people learn from the tutorial how to cut and they WILL assume that's the game: cut, and the game mechanics handles the rest. This is such a natural assumption. As pointed out before: people will assume trees "just spawn" for players to cut, that's the game.

Remember that 9/10 MMOs are not sandboxes. (more than 9/10 actually.). I speak for myself as well here, as a new player who may understand the concept of sandbox BUT has almost no experience with one. You won't realize how many assumptions you make until you're faced with them. :)

How can we make information more visible?

1) Signs saying: "Cut only old, very old trees. They give more logs"

2) Signs saying: "New player? Ask in chat for a sickle"

3) Maybe. A stickie would be possible or does it exist, for celebration-specific forums?

4) I'll review the wiki later and see if it's fit to insert a bit more on deforesting and replanting.

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Hi, I'm am a brand new player just started today. In fact I haven't even choose my server just but maybe we can help each other. I spend a few hours on the tutorial and didn't rush it at all. I have no idea why chopping down the trees in a bad thing. From the tutorial I've learned, trees grow and have 3 stages of development, once I chop them they become felled tree, I can cut a felled tree into logs to use for tools/resources.

It's been repeated a few times in the thread that newbies chopping trees is an issue and a few possible solutions have been presented, but for the new people like me, what hasn't been covered is why chopping trees is bad, can someone please explain why is newbies chopping down trees a bad thing?

1) Cut only old, very old, overaged trees. They give more logs, and it is a waste to cut the young or mature ones.

2) Trees don't just appear in the wurm world, people plant them: with a sickle activated, and right click on the tree, you can see if it has a sprout. If it does, you can cut the sprout. Then, with the sprout activated, and right click on a dirt or grass area, you can plant it.

3) People do not have a problem with cutting down trees. But with cutting down the entire area indiscriminately, without leaving anything behind, surely cutting younger trees as well. Please see the deserted area in the picture. Cutting down is not wrong, cutting everything indiscriminately and never planting back, is sad.

And, newer players, wouldn't find anything to cut... Because trees do not just "appear", someone has to be (re)planting them. :)

So the idea is, as possible: cut only older trees, and try to keep in mind to prepare to replant, at least when you can and when you need a lot of wood (that is, replace as possible and when possible).

There is no sickle in the starter pack, however I'm certain people in CA chat may be willing to give out sickles made by themselves.

(since you'd need materials and forge, to make it yourself when starting up).

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Trees do spawn and spread on their own, but there needs to be a tree for that to happen. If there are no trees then there is no spread. This is also a very VERY slow process, so having one tree left in the middle of a field won't help very much.

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So, since it's clear that the signs aren't helping, can we agree that they're contributing to the eyesore and remove them in favor of a better solution? I went down there to investigate yesterday. The signs struck me as hostile and provocative, essentially daring a rebellious passer-by to clearcut the whole area for the lulz.

Some folks in the community are working on much more robust and permanent solutions to this issue. I hate to see good intentions and efforts like the ones Vetarnic showed here get flushed down the drain and sour him on all community involvement.

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So, since it's clear that the signs aren't helping, can we agree that they're contributing to the eyesore and remove them in favor of a better solution? I went down there to investigate yesterday. The signs struck me as hostile and provocative, essentially daring a rebellious passer-by to clearcut the whole area for the lulz.

Some folks in the community are working on much more robust and permanent solutions to this issue. I hate to see good intentions and efforts like the ones Vetarnic showed here get flushed down the drain and sour him on all community involvement.

Yes I would remove the type of Signs that order players to do or not do anything.

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Actually decided I dont want to chime in on this one. Cant find a delete button.

Edited by Niclamus

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Hi!

It seems that the discussion here is whether the noobs are idiots or griefers. IMHO, it's none of those (at least in most cases). Here's a newbie point of view.

I started playing about a week ago. How did I come to Wurm? I was looking for a sandbox RPG, and googled a nice three-sentence recommendation. Ok, I registered and started.

Honestly, I rushed through the tutorial (first part of it was pretty annoying, a popup every five seconds with tips like "press W to move forward" or "you walk slower on mud than on stone"). I started reading it when it came to opening containers. When the tutorial showed cutting trees and creating campfires, the game started to be interesting :) Ok, I finished the rest of the tutorial (reading more carefully), and randomly chosen a portal to non-PVP server. Poof! I'm in Celebration.

Now what do I see? A small paved spawn area, water on one side, and the grassy hill with muddy road on another. Some half-finished sheds in the distance. I was pretty convinced that I'm in the wilderness, with some village nearby. I haven't noticed the signs "don't cut etc."...

Ok, what to do now? The tutorial showed how to cut a tree and create a campfire, so I guess that's what I should do! And build a shelter ASAP! These are top priorities! ***Ok, where are the trees?*** Mind you, I wasn't reading the wiki, I wasn't reading the forums, I just registered and started playing!

I tried to build a shed on some nearby flat area, and didn't know how to do it - that's when I opened a wiki and started reading "How to build a house" - and realized that I have to get some nails first, and that was the reason that I wandered away from Tap Dance...

So, to sum it up... Someone said that "we should make a desert and let them noobs have fun with crocodiles!". Honestly, I don't think that killing fresh players on sight is going to solve anything. What I suggest is building a large paved and fenced area, with signs displaying some basic rules. This way, a newb will: 1) actually read the signs, 2) feel that he/she is in the middle of a developed area and should move away. Maybe put a sign "This world is huge, don;t try to settle here, go exploring first!". Remember, many people ("n00bs") connecting for the first time have NO CLUE.

And if you have some almost-decaying logs in the backyard, drop them in Tap Dance, noobs will use them! You can have fun with that, watching them walk overencumbered ;)

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So, to sum it up... Someone said that "we should make a desert and let them noobs have fun with crocodiles!". Honestly, I don't think that killing fresh players on sight is going to solve anything. What I suggest is building a large paved and fenced area, with signs displaying some basic rules. This way, a newb will: 1) actually read the signs, 2) feel that he/she is in the middle of a developed area and should move away. Maybe put a sign "This world is huge, don;t try to settle here, go exploring first!". Remember, many people ("n00bs") connecting for the first time have NO CLUE.

Thanks for your feedback and explanation. That is something we can really work with rather than angry screenshots and complaints!

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I agree with Hula_Girl. It's been more than 4 years since I've started playing Wurm as a noob but I remember that I was attracted by signs on GV saying: "Public mine" or "Public clay". That way i was pretty sure i didn't harm anybody. If you provide an area with logs and clear signs (maybe refer to the wiki) life of a noob will be a lot easier. Lastly inform them of the maps and plant direction signs to some landmarks on that map so they know where they're going. (for a while :))

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Now what do I see? A small paved spawn area, water on one side, and the grassy hill with muddy road on another. Some half-finished sheds in the distance. I was pretty convinced that I'm in the wilderness, with some village nearby. I haven't noticed the signs "don't cut etc."...

That is a quote from a newbe I have been looking for a long time now.

The way the spawn areas lock like, people don't even recognize them as significant places, they just think they have been dumped on a random spot on the server.

Grangted some of the older spawn deeds have been taken care of by now, but on standart the new players are always taken to the new server with the new barren starter deed.

Maybe GM should search and appoint a caretaker for these places first thing, even before they are opened officially.

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Sandboxes aren't always pretty. That's one reason I like to go out into the true wilderness areas. They're much less cluttered with all of our messes. But I personally would rather have this freedom than not have it. Rolf could change a lot of things about this game to suit different peoples needs, but then it wouldn't really be a shared sandbox anymore. It'd be more like an instanced sandbox where we each create a world we prefer but it's somehow shielded or set apart from the worlds others make. Basically, with shared freedom comes consequences and we share the burden of the choices we each make. It's not easy. It's more like bringing up a family, haha! We have to try to respect each other. And lord help us if the map is too small! The smaller it's, the more we'll have to work together (gulp).

Personally, I hate working with others because all too often I let my opinions come to the surface and I am not good at giving ground to others. But I know that if everyone was like me then the map would be too small. I also realize that new players need more sociable players than myself to adjust to the complex workings of this game and to make some quick friends who'll be there to help them. I don't make a good friend to most people. But anyway, Wurm is a different kind of game and I'm very honored to be here, it's a very special place and moment in time.

And btw, when I logged into Serenity I ignored all the trees and mines. I just explored. Then I found some people to live with. I saw those signs in the first 24 hours that said "Don't cut here!" and so on. I saw some that said "You may cut here!" Etc. But I don't just cut anywhere, so I ignored em. Me, I usually only settle for unique places.

Man, my mind was blown in the first 24 hours. I was so amazed by this game. I remember being somewhere up higher elevation and there was a clearcut and all around me there were was grass and bushes. At the edge of the clearing were dozens of stacks of logs. I wondered who cut them and why. And the trees rose up into the night sky. I could hear them, or I thought I did. It was mostly silent up there. I was keeping an eye out for animals. But it was so magical and so amazing to be in a shared world. I don't think I've ever felt so immersed in a game before.

This is my 9th day.

Edited by Lightonfoot
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A couple Fo priests using wild growth could put a huge dent in that problem.

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