The Tragedy Of The Commons, In One Picture

[Epic_Sojourner 8]

Starter deeds have always been and will always be a mess, doing your bit to fix them is nice but anything you try is ultimately futile. Having wrecked starter deeds encourages people to move farther out and creates a fairly interesting and unique terrain of devestation that makes the game seem more interesting when you start. I'd rather not spawn in a dense forest, it's sorta forbidding and confusing.

People who plant trees are fine, but these regular whine threads about a starter area looking bad are frustrating and annoying. If you don't like the area and you were short sighted enough to settle there, move away.

Yes because there's nothing like starting a new game like wurm in a wrecked ruined and filthy cesspool of neglect to really hook your interest and make you want to continue playing. What's annoying is when long time players forget/ignore this important detail.

[Guest Docterchese]

Sickle would be great addition to starter tools - also a part of tutorial will teach how to use it and conserve nature

^^ this.

Without sickles there is no way whatsoever that a noob can re-plant. At least give them some kind of chance.

[Teggs 55]

You just need some help, Vetarnic. I had the same experience laying saplings in at Esert on Exodus, as did others, but when BobMcKnob inspired everyone to work at the same time: http://forum.wurmonl...pic/57478-reap/ ...we turned that place around. Permanently, it seems. With enough people, you can plant enough trees that live long enough to sprout naturally and simply overwhelm the demand for wood. A little education of new players, some free sickles, and even Fo spells were applied at Esert, but trees alone would probably do the trick, if you had enough.

On the issue of sickles... it isn't the sickles. Anyone who realizes what is going on and wants to make a sickle can make a sickle. It is much easier to do so than it was in the past, too. The issue is some people who don't know about sprouts and planting, some people who know about it but aren't used to thinking that way in a game, and a lot of players who just don't care and wouldn't use a sickle if Rolf gave them an enchanted supreme steel QL 100 model with Circle of Cunning (100) and Wind of Ages (100) on it in their starting kit. That last is most of the problem, and it is not something we or Rolf can "fix".

But do not despair, because as the REAP project showed, you can be victorious.

- Teggs

[Ols 306]

Yes because there's nothing like starting a new game like wurm in a wrecked ruined and filthy cesspool of neglect to really hook your interest and make you want to continue playing. What's annoying is when long time players forget/ignore this important detail.

I started in Newtown and it certainly hooked my interest. I think you're ascribing too much emotion to your personal interest rather than considering how it actually is for most new people to the game. I was struck with awe at what people had done, and back then wood scraps everywhere looked more like treasure than junk.

[Epic_Sojourner 8]

I started in Newtown and it certainly hooked my interest. I think you're ascribing too much emotion to your personal interest rather than considering how it actually is for most new people to the game. I was struck with awe at what people had done, and back then wood scraps everywhere looked more like treasure than junk.

I recall starting for the first time in the Howl on Independence, Which in comparison to some of the other Starter Deeds in Freedom and Epic looked fantastic. It wasn't poch marked, deforested, erratically paved and/or unpaved. Covered in signs that are intentionally wrong to trick new players or inflame other players. started ships, on top of the fact that almost all starter deeds were constructed or rather slapped down in the most unless way in the first place.

Ugly, confusing, annoying and lying of probably the best way to describe the State of many of them.

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

I recall starting for the first time in the Howl on Independence, Which in comparison to some of the other Starter Deeds in Freedom and Epic looked fantastic. It wasn't poch marked, deforested, erratically paved and/or unpaved. Covered in signs that are intentionally wrong to trick new players or inflame other players. started ships, on top of the fact that almost all starter deeds were constructed or rather slapped down in the most unless way in the first place.

Ugly, confusing, annoying and lying of probably the best way to describe the State of many of them.

I think one reason the Howl may seem less chaotic is simply .. most of the newer people are channeled by the tutorial into one of the newer servers. The Howl has thus had more time than the other start spawns to heal. Many Indy players are long time vets -- there are vets on all servers, but Indy people maybe have deeper roots to their deeds, they are less inclined to jump into a fresh territory and start fresh again. Many of their deeds are more "finished" so they have maybe also more time to divert their attention to smaller things outside of their own homesteads. Like reforesting and repairing the start areas again.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Brash_Endeavors

[Dpunk 1]

Hi, I'm am a brand new player just started today. In fact I haven't even choose my server just but maybe we can help each other. I spend a few hours on the tutorial and didn't rush it at all. I have no idea why chopping down the trees in a bad thing. From the tutorial I've learned, trees grow and have 3 stages of development, once I chop them they become felled tree, I can cut a felled tree into logs to use for tools/resources.

It's been repeated a few times in the thread that newbies chopping trees is an issue and a few possible solutions have been presented, but for the new people like me, what hasn't been covered is why chopping trees is bad, can someone please explain why is newbies chopping down trees a bad thing?

Edited July 5, 2012 by Dpunk

[Mendeluka 1]

Hi, I'm am a brand new player just started today. In fact I haven't even choose my server just but maybe we can help each other. I spend a few hours on the tutorial and didn't rush it at all. I have no idea why chopping down the trees in a bad thing. From the tutorial I've learned, trees grow and have 3 stages of development, once I chop them they become felled tree, I can cut a felled tree into logs to use for tools/resources.

It's been repeated a few times in the thread that newbies chopping trees is an issue and a few possible solutions have been presented, but for the new people like me, what hasn't been covered is why chopping trees is bad, can someone please explain why is newbies chopping down trees a bad thing?

It isnt wholely bad..until they clear cut entire forests like locusts...yes woodcutting is needed skill.....cutting scraps into kindling raises that faster by far at low levels then cutting down 200 trees.....

[Miretta 1,415]

actually it would maybe help people, if there are some "secured" forrest areas with a fence and gate around it. And you would only open it, when there is no young tree anymore? and if its just about the looks, you could let it locked....so newbies are forced to go further away from the start. I still know, when I started the game I was the same. Kinda helpless and lost and thrown into a world I don't know because its so different to other mmos...

also I needed a tree to build my first stuff and everything was deeded...did not know about deeds at that time^^ so i felled a fruit tree....somewhere....when i fall down a cliff XD this could've been avoided with signs maybe I just didnt know where to go initially

[Ayes 3,715]

Dpunk, new players chopping down trees is not a bad thing to do if they only chop down trees that are old, very old and overaged (can be seen by using "examine" on the tree) for their own use for crafting tools and items (carts, ect). It becomes a bad thing to do when new players cut down young and shriveled trees or cut down more trees than they will use for making the items they need.

So to sum it up, it is perfectly fine for new players to cut down trees for their own use. It is just that when others plant new sprouts and they are cut down at young ages or a large number of them are cut down and left scattered around, the people who planted the area with sprouts get a bit upset about it.

=Ayes=

[Faeldray 49]

I can sympathize with both the veterans and the newbies. It does look awful to see those trees cut down after all that work. And cutting down young trees is such a waste. But at the same time, I remember how it was when I first started playing, back when Independence was the only server. I must have walked around for 2 hours just trying to find a tree that wasn't fenced up or on a deed so I could build a cart. And finding iron around the starter area? That was a major pain. Making a sickle wasn't even on my mind, I was too busy trying to survive. And it's kind of frightening to go too far, especially when you have no clue where you're going and anything can kill you in an instant (and all your belongings are on your person so you can't even run away).

I'm not saying it's an excuse to clear cutting but I agree that putting a sickle in the starter kit and adding sprout picking/planting to the tutorial would be an excellent idea. However, until that happens, things are the way they are.

I think what I'm going to do is work on making a ton of low quality sickles (I want to improve my mining and weaponsmithing anyways) and bring them to Inner City Orphanage on Independence, hopefully to be distributed to the newbies. And if anyone else wants some for their server's spawn area, I'd be happy to provide.

[spellcast 983]

we used to have sprout picking and planting in the tutorial, many people complained that it made the tutorial longer for no benefit.

as to adding a sickle to the starter kit: that would not really help much, because:

A- (as someone mentioned farther up the thread) the chance of a new player finding a tree with a sprout on it, successfully cutting the sprout, and successfully planting it is quite low. so even the ones that give a damn would become frustrated and annoyed very quickly.

B- most people would ignore it even if they had it.

One way for a starter deed to be clean and include lots of trees is for it to be a large deed (50+ radius) so that there is a large 'seed' forest available, and with a large perimeter (Another 50+tiles) to keep a buffer that people cant build in. the biggest thing that prevents tree growth isn't really the constant cutting of trees, its people building on the tiles the trees might normally grow on.

On the other hand, no-one really wants 40,000 tiles blocked by an unused, GM owned deed.

[validate 598]

i had same issue by my deeds long ago. if i saw that sign though. i'd plant another saying "then give us sickles" when i first started it took me a month to make one sickle. because of this when i came to deli i knew newbs would clear cut. i quickly made over 20 sickles and gave them to all the newish players i could find. it helped a bit. then i just walled off my perimeters and made my own tree farms.

[York 16]

If anyone has recently been back to TD, you have probably noticed there are some new signs up and all the trees have been replanted. I wasnt personally appart of it but it sure was nice to see how someone had taken the time to replant them, along with validate giving out free sickles! Sometimes its hard to see past kchat and think the commmunity is somewhat poor due to petty squabbles and trash talk. This proves there are probably more people out there committed to the wellbeing of the community rather than the opposite.

[Vetarnic 41]

If anyone has recently been back to TD, you have probably noticed there are some new signs up and all the trees have been replanted. I wasnt personally appart of it but it sure was nice to see how someone had taken the time to replant them, along with validate giving out free sickles! Sometimes its hard to see past kchat and think the commmunity is somewhat poor due to petty squabbles and trash talk. This proves there are probably more people out there committed to the wellbeing of the community rather than the opposite.

Just a slight problem: that was me again.

[York 16]

Just a slight problem: that was me again.

I see that as something to be proud of not as a problem *tips hat to you sir!*

[Klaa 4,872]

Chop down the trees! Let the smoke of the charcoal piles fill the sky!

[Vetarnic 41]

Shortly after the original picture was taken, I replanted 150 sprouts on the same spot.

This is what it looks like now:

Trying to alleviate the tragedy of the commons by increasing supply will just give you a larger tragedy, in spite of the other sign now telling newbies to examine trees and not cut young or mature ones.

Enjoy everyone enclosing their trees, noobs.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Vetarnic

[Tristanc 570]

And again, though I don't even reside in that area, if you have a sign saying 'If you can't replant, DON'T CUT.', noting the all caps of the latter part, it's likely going to be seen as a demand and not a polite request.

It's doubtful in my opinion that newly-entered new players are doing the cutting, but others in the area who might be reacting to the signs.

Seeming arrogant or demanding is not the best way to get requests honoured, if those who read them view the signs that way.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Tristanc

[scottfree 32]

The issue i believe is simply that new players dont realise how different wurm is to other games .. kill a few mobs in almost any online game, and they respawn within minutes for example.

most noobs will therefore assume that trees respawn by themselves once cut, so whats the big deal with cutting whatever tree is closest.

Making people understand that will assist the more considerate new players to be less destructive, wont change the behaviour of the others, but thats human nature for you.

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

I remember when I started as a new player, and how hard it was to find trees to cut. No one put out signs that said "These Are Not For You!" since there were no trees at all, but it felt much the same. I had a new axe ... but nothing that I could make with it. I even made clay pottery to barter at the market trader for a sickle some other player had sold there, but there were no trees to cut sprouts from with my new sickle anyway. But I remember there was one player, named Hankrearden , who would go out and fell trees and bring them back and dump them whole for us to cut up for our starter tools and our carts. So thank you, Hankreaden. Eighteen months later and I still remember that small courtesy from one player, who for me that day represented the entire Wurm community.

I am sure it seems out of place to post that here, but it very much made me remember it.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Brash_Endeavors

[Delex 1]

So what i mean is Wurm needs a "real" starter town in all servers, like it had New Dawn, and all the other GM towns in Golden Valley.

This doesn't sound like that bad of an idea, to be honest. Having facilities to mine, make tools and food, and stuff could help solve problems with noobs that don't understand the game and maybe making it a bit more comforting to them than just throwing them into the world and saying "you're on your own now buddy". You could argue that the tutorial should solve this, but it seems very few people pay attention to the tutorials that much as evidenced here. However, I don't think that'd be the cure-all end-all solution to the tree problem.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Delex

[axeblade346 164]

Ok ,I am not going to read all of the 3 pages just so say something.

I was on Celi day 1 of it opening. Are you guys aware that a CM went so far as to use mute warnings to tell players that "If you don`t know how to make a mallet , make a new char and do the tutorial again , till you know how." as each 4 question in CA help was "how make mallet?" and a read 4 lines up an read didn`t even work.

So even a sickle in the kit wont stop them from being noobs who don`t read and think.

Simple solution. You must have 5 Forestry and Gardening to Cut a tree thus forcing them to pick sprouts and plant them.

[Brem 0]

Simple solution. You must have 5 Forestry and Gardening to Cut a tree thus forcing them to pick sprouts and plant them.

+1 I like this idea

[Alyeska 2,621]

Simple solution. You must have 5 Forestry and Gardening to Cut a tree thus forcing them to pick sprouts and plant them.

Not a solution at all. They'd need to find the trees first and quite frankly, it only needs one person to cut them all down. It would only cause more frustration than it would solve.

Solution; a gm ran deed near the starter town with nothing but trees on it, with the setting "allow cutting of old trees".